Underachieving emotional women are hot?
Find a Conversation
| Sun, 01-01-2006 - 9:27pm |
So tell me men...
If it's a fact that successful, educated women are less likely to marry, is this because men find them less attractive marriage partners? I'm not asking for statistics here...I just want your personal opinion. I'm taking a poll.
In a related topic, are women that appear vulnerable more attractive? À la Faye Wray? I ask this for the following reason:
I was dissed by a guy I had been dating 4 months at a party for no apparent reason, and quite drunkenly, I ended up crying on the shoulder of a guy that I didn't know later that night (embarrassing, no?). This guy took pity on me and listened to my sad tale of woe. He then like a gentleman gave me his email and phone number and told me to call him to find out what my boyfriend's problem was, and walked me to the subway. Well the problem was the next day my b/f broke up with me...no reason ever given... :(
But as a happy consequence, me and this guy have developed a rather close friendship. He dates younger women as he is 8 years younger than myself, and nothing has gone beyond this platonic friendship. We go mountain biking, to parties together, and this NYE we spent (platonically) ringing in the New Year by talking about our respective dating activity and watching DVDs...
I told one of my closest friends about this situation and she says guys love feeling needed like that...they like it when a woman is vulnerable, and she encouraged me to be more vulnerable.
This goes along the same lines of men preferring women with accents...like women are somewhat dependent on the guy.
Does this make any sense to anyone? My parents are both actors...I have taught myself to cry on cue...what do you think guys? Attractive? Crying on a date? (Because I'm not going to fake an accent!)
And don't give me the 'just be yourself' response...it's def NOT working...I want your honest opinion. It doesn't have to be bawling, I was kind of thinking just tearing up a bit when talking about something personal...but I've always thought that the other person might think I'm really depressed or something...yuck...
Edited 1/1/2006 9:42 pm ET by goddess_juju

Pages
Thanks again for your thorough reply. That's interesting...you are a racecar driver?
This is really helping me to review these things. Although many have suggested I date guys at work, this strategy is not generally good practice, I've found, from watching others, if you want to be taken seriously.
I did however date a guy for 4 months who is a PhD-level engineer doing research (not where I work), probably an INTJ, 5 yrs older than me, and we got along great, but he dumped me with no reason given. He said basically he wanted space. I've really never been matched so completely well to anyone. I was totally shocked, devastated, heartbroken. But I'm over that now, it's been 6 months. I made a clean break...he said he wanted space, and I respected that and never contacted him again.
Since then I've dated 10 guys, and I really do view it as a guy might...catch and release. A sport. Enjoying times for the moment. I've learned to have a sense of humor about dating from trading escapades with my platonic guy friend. This is really a bit disturbing to some people, it seems they don't expect women to date casually more than one at a time. Of course I have the tact not to talk about other guys with the guy I'm with...also the case with NSA relationships, which I've experimented with. Both women and men alike are shocked that someone like me can have sex with a guy without the emotional attachment. But I have now, and no big deal to me.
But occasionally, like this recent guy, I really get along with someone, and I'm sad if it's not going to work out. Yes I do have expectations, sometimes. In the rare event I do have expectations (I would say about 1 out of every 10 dates, on average) I get disappointed. The other 9 times I would say it doesn't work out but it's a mutual thing. No heartbreak. The guy just never calls back (and I'm relieved...whew).
So I feel guy-ish, yes, but guys are def attracted to me as a woman. I get all kinds of compliments on my physique, they like to touch, kiss, etc. It can get physical quickly if I like them.
My ratio of 1 out of 10 guys being interesting might improve if the guys I asked out were ever interested in me. I get the feeling still though that a woman asking a guy out...some guys view this as desperation, some guys really like it, but the rare instances in my life when the guy actually said yes, I got treated like absolute crap. It was really bad. Hence I haven't done this in a long while.
Not a race car driver - but a survival based endurance athlete. Think eco-challenge -a nd you get it.
Put me out in the wild with nothing but running shoes, a kayak and wing blade, and tell me to "survive and cover distance" - no problem - I can do that for days and days on end.
I'd say that you're probably running into alot of what I run into in the "asking out" thing. THey figure you're a go getter - everything you've seen adn wanted -you've gone out and gotten without hesitation or reservation. So if you wanted them - you'd ask.
The second one of my really good training buddies put it to me that way - I saw the point. I am like they are, I do what they do - they see me as at theier level, adn thinking from thier perspective. For me to sit around and attempt to be demure and "wait" to be asked out - it absolutely didn't fit the profile....so I stopped waiting.
If a man is offended by being asked out - he was never your type to begin with!
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
>>Put me out in the wild with nothing but running shoes, a kayak and wing blade, and tell me to "survive and cover distance" - no problem - I can do that for days and days on end.
Cool!!
>>For me to sit around and attempt to be demure and "wait" to be asked out - it absolutely didn't fit the profile....so I stopped waiting.
This is so great! You are a total inspiration. However you realize in my particular case I am getting asked out quite often. Just we are poorly matched, because I must be broadcasting some kind of vibe that misrepresents me as younger than I actually am, Jewish, and more liberal than I actually am.
>>If a man is offended by being asked out - he was never your type to begin with!
I totally agree. I find guys my age and younger are much more enlightened and flattered by a woman asking them out (I haven't asked them out, but I ask their opinion), however the fact that I am already past childbearing age is a problem for many of them. The older guys tend to be more conservative and repulsed by a woman asking them out, or paying for dinner, etc, but might be more forgiving about my age. I say 'tend' though...I am obviously making generalizations. It's worth a try.
You had mentioned earlier that you are being asked out by a lot of jewish guys. You also mention you have blonde hair. Jewish men are some of the most aggressive men (in a dating sense) that you will ever meet. Blondes are prized by these guys, I know, I have blonde hair and technically I am jewish because my mother is, this I have to keep a secret in the company of jewish men because it is like ants on honey.
You might try asking men out that YOU want to date rather than limiting yourself to men that ask you out.
This is so great! You are a total inspiration. However you realize in my particular case I am getting asked out quite often. Just we are poorly matched, because I must be broadcasting some kind of vibe that misrepresents me as younger than I actually am, Jewish, and more liberal than I actually am.
Is this possible - if you don't assume, project or stereotype (hard to do, we all have to do it to some extent in order to proceed initially in anything).......is it possible the people asking you out that are younger than you and more liberal (a tendency of the young is towards liberal - we won't go there - I remember being 20 and liberal - and now 42 and so not!) are not wanting relationships - but just to date?
Or are they specifically unenchanted with you once they find out your age, your political views, and your religious preference because they state they were looking for relationship potential partners to date?
I would see younger and more liberal, less assumptive and more open to "whatever" types - asking you out - because you're "hip, cool, and totally foreign" to them conceptually and perhaps it is you wanting something more permanent potentially - that has you disenchanted with them - as a result of what they want doesn't match your desires.
>>If a man is offended by being asked out - he was never your type to begin with!
I totally agree. I find guys my age and younger are much more enlightened and flattered by a woman asking them out (I haven't asked them out, but I ask their opinion),
Well, I'd say this probably has alot of merit. College age people don't have the money or time to really formally "date" and wine/dine/romance a partner - they have time to grab burgers, hang out and intertwine as a result of shared interests and involvements already.
So younger men don't have a prioritization on, or a pattern with and as a result a positive emotional association pattern with "dating" in a formal sense. Older men do. It's rather like the impression that the "age of Sinatra" (not his years of age, but the years in which he was in vogue in his peak) were ones of glamor and romance, of more formality and pomp regarding dating - along with other aspects of life in general at that time.
So men that have been in, or have been in on the cusp of that interpretation and impression - would have a positive emotional association wiht dating formally, and a more rigid approach to it, and definitely less affinity for anything that challenged the parameters or methods of it - as they see it.
Younger guys have never had a problem asking me out..........and they've never had a problem had I ever wanted to ask them. With me, I was always married to someone 20 years older, or at least 10 - than me - and the last marriage ended at 35. So I've been dating guys that are "my age now" - all my life. I'm still attracted to that age, and joke that when I'm 60 - I probably will be as well finally "attracted to younger men" - 50 year olds!
In older men, I found more parameters, or more stereotypes and assumptions (please take none of those terms in the negative) with dating. I think very little has changed - what young people call FWB or hanging out and hooking up - 40 and 50 year olds term that "lovers adn friends"........I think at our age now everything less has to "go somewhere" rather than exist as it is, for what it is, enjoying it as it is - and that's it.
I think the older people are, sometimes the wiser they are - but often not. Basically - partnership is a concept that is not "taught" in schools or homes overmuch anymore. Relationships are thought of as "need meeting or image enhancing" entities that you get into for specific uses or causes. And partnership being prioritized for what it is - and being attended to for waht it is while not worshipping it for what it's not - is almost a lost ability on the part of most people.
partnership is simply someone enough like you - to enhance how you are and are goin to be - whether they're there or not. I think people that want partnership in life - seek it relatively early - by 30's and at least by 40's. They see life as a challenge and thrill - and want someone as self-sufficient, responsible and reliant by their side to share the thrills and chills with. Not create it for them, or save them from it temporarily.
When you reach mid 40's and on - most people have some association with marriage or relationship that has some sort of negative connotation - a loss of an emotional, financial, or social scale - at minimum. suddenly relationships aren't as "necessary" as they are "potentially destructive".........and they get entered into more as business arrangements in a sense, and definitely using some of those assessment measures. Which makes sense. Marriage and divorce is not about feelings or about "thoughts" regarding this other person. It's contractual obligation and liability - period the end. If you haven't got the time to recoup what it is you lose in a split -t here is a question as to whether you should enter into a contractual arrangement of this nature or not.
If you've spent the better portion of your life acquiring financial security and professional success and NOW you want someone to "sshare the bounty and wealth with" - realize that it's unlikely that you really want a partnership. You want someone along for the ride - provided they're not going to impact the success or progress overmuch. You're not talking about wanting children.....you're certainly not talking about wanting to split assets and property in a division in the event of a split.
I think that's perhaps why the younger generation asks you out - they figure that you're running with the reality of the moment. That what you want in life is fun, excitement, and to share "what is" - for waht it is - and that is it. They're quite willing to have fun, sex, excitement, and conversation in the moment.........as they age, acquire, and accrue - they might want more from a relationship - but likely it'll include children with someone younger than them, not older.
The 40 and 50 year old woman has come to terms with she's worth more than sex, and doesn't mind having "great sex" and that's all it is. Her worth isn't determined by looks or status of that nature. She's come to terms with being who she is...and is realistic about what she wants. She's got more expectations of herself - than of anybody else.......and won't impede the progress with alliance, nor is she expecting alliance to take her where she's not already going to take herself anyway.
however the fact that I am already past childbearing age is a problem for many of them.
Again, I thihk this is one of those deals where they'd love to spend time with your intellgence, wit, charm, humor, sexuality and sensuality - but they're realistic. You can't be a partner to them in the capacity they want partnership - that includes children. That isn't stopping them spending a year or two with yu - enjoying every second, while they get wehre they want to be professionally and personally before moving on to find someone who wants what they want in life - not limited to children, but including that, of course.
The older guys tend to be more conservative and repulsed by a woman asking them out, or paying for dinner, etc, but might be more forgiving about my age. I say 'tend' though...I am obviously making generalizations. It's worth a try.
I can see that. I'd completely concur as a generalization. I had a male buddy of mine really "help" me get to where I am now mentally and emotionally without ever knowing where I was headed.......and a couple of years ago he sent me a quote - that I have hanging on the wall.
He remembers me having a point to prove - trying to prove to me one race at a time I was "good enough" - who could I beat at the time - nobody - but I was out to prove "I am a person to, I count, I matter, I'm here". He so remembers that time in my life where I had a "point to prove".....I came to terms with who I a, what I believe and waht, what is possible...I've learned to go with teh flow, roll with the punches, how to play poker in the hand of life that you can't predict or control, I know when to bluff and when to fold.....he taught me that.......although he didn't know it. He watched me go from a chip on my shoulder and a squint of distrust and fear in my eyes - to a sparkle in my eye, and a skip in my step - knowing a thrill and challenge was just around the corner and whatever it is - I can do it. He saw it smooth the surfaces, and sharpen the facets - so that prism sparkles in the sunlight in many directions and colors. He met me when I had a point to prove...and I immersed myself thanks to him and his quiet insight - into earning my own respect, approval, acceptance, admiration, appreciation, and affirmation.
So when he found phrase he had to send it - and it made total sense to both of us "In no longer having a point to prove, by God, you've proven your point."
If you're out there trying to produce a result you don't control and can't control - you're in a losing hand of poker. You're on the bad side of wrap rock, you're going downhill in 20th gear and you're going to wipe out. If what you do is designed to get a result you CAN control and get and do get as a result.........you've proven the point to you about how capable, responsible, how successful, and self-aware you are. That smooths the surfaces, sharpens the images..........and it makes you sparkle in the sunlight.
It might not ever get you a partner in life - but it'll make your life a beautiful thing to be living - it'll make you fascinating to stare at.....but the people that don't work as hard as you play - will want no part of you - Thank God for that!
It might help if you determined waht purpose a relationship is designed to serve in your life - now and 5 and 10 and 15 years from now. What is the purpose of it? Why now? Why weren't you after this 5 years ago or 10? Once you figure that out - you're a lot further to figuring out the type of man to pursue and where to find him.
What are you going to sacrifice in your life - in order to have a relationship. what is too great to concede and not an option to give up?
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
>>Jewish men are some of the most aggressive men (in a dating sense) that you will ever meet.
I agree. That's def been my experience anyway.
>>Blondes are prized by these guys
I really had no idea! Seriously? Like, esp Jewish men? I just though blonde was in general kind of a stereotype 'babe' for some men, but not specifically Jewish men.
>>You might try asking men out that YOU want to date rather than limiting yourself to men that ask you out.
Yes, I could take a cue from those aggressive Jewish men. Seriously. But my past experience with asking guys out has been either flat out rejection or if I do go out, I get treated very badly and not asked out again. It's really been very discouraging. It's almost like I lose their respect somehow. Might be my approach.
>>Or are they specifically unenchanted with you once they find out your age, your political views, and your religious preference because they state they were looking for relationship potential partners to date?
Yes. I'm not dating players...most are pretty sincere guys, for the most part, the ones I meet in person. The exceptions are guys I meet from online websites who tend to be in their mid-40s, just out of a relationship and pretty noncomittal. My last relationship was a 45-yo guy, who was never married and really still pretty mixed up as to what he wanted (i.e., still wanted to swing a bit). I didn't realize this till the day he broke up with me though...he put on a good act. So now I'm a little hesitant to date the older guys.
I'm 40, so by younger I mean guys 33-37. Sounds counterintuitive but I think the situation is what you describe: once in their mid-40s, a lot of people (men and women) have formed some pretty cynical opinions about marriage. The mid-30s guys are still idealistic about marriage and having kids.
I'm on the thirtysomething wavelength actually, because I would so love to have a family, with the right guy, and I always have. But...seems unlikely now unless I adopt or go in vitro. It's a lot to ask of someone else, but I would do it since it's probably my only option. I've always wanted to be a stay-at-home mom for the first 5 years...teach the kid sign language before they can speak and the whole bit. I'd put work aside for that, and even take out a loan if I had to in order to swing it financially, and then maybe do scientific writing (writing's my other passion) because it would be difficult to get back into scientist mode after a 5-yr hiatus at my age.
So I've really thought it out and I know exactly what I want, but it's just a pipe dream at this point. I've thought about having a kid on my own but it just doesn't seem fair to the kid. It's important to me to at least try to have a traditional family...please no offense to the millions of single moms and non-nuclear families out there...and to do things in order, i.e. meet the right person I want to spend the rest of my life with, then have kids. If I can't do it that way I guess I just won't do it. Can't have everything.
But all that's getting way way way ahead of what I'm trying to achieve here...which is simply getting to know someone well in a relationship. That's my only goal right now.
I've never been "not looking", but having worn my heart on my sleeve pining for certain guys for so many years my friends and family would all say, "it will happen when you least expect it...stop trying so hard" and "he chased her until she caught him." Unfortunately I took this very bad advice, and nothing ever happened.
Now I take a more pro-active approach with online dating and meeting new people at different social functions around the city, which is for obvious reasons working a lot better. In a sense. I have more opportunities but me being me, I also get rejected a lot more. I'm trying to figure out why...because it might be related to why the guys I pined for in my younger days never responded to my best efforts.
Nowadays my age is a problem, but when I was younger I was once told that I didn't have enough "attitude"...meaning I wasn't enough of a bitch...so I don't know really what to believe. At every point in my life there's been some reason I'm not suitable, although everyone's happy to date me a couple of times, and married men...huh that's another story. Married men hit on me all the time. I hate these losers with a vengance, so I've never acquiesced to their propositions. Often enough it's the men I work for. I think I'm getting sick to my stomach just thinking about it...
So I've never felt 'unattractive', just always slipped through the cracks...somehow...
You're a shiksa, hon.
Yes, there is a trick to asking men out. The trick is to ask them out while they don't realize they are being asked out. You are going for a cup of coffee anyway, would they like to come along? You are grabbing a bite, will they join you?
A date without it being a date.
My last relationship was a 45-yo guy, who was never married and really still pretty mixed up as to what he wanted
Why rationally would you hold the assumption that he "didn't know what he wanted". HE did know precisely what he wanted - he's 45 and he wants freedom, options, opportunities and no obligations...he has that remaining single.
It's just that you didn't realize that "indecisions is a decision. It's a decision to remain in limbo."
That position allowed him to have what he wanted ot have...and avoid what he didn't wnat to have to deal with.
You thinking he "wasn't sure"......had you believing he was trying to make up his mind. But at 45 - you're sure that "limbo suits you" - when you're 45, unmarried, without kids.
And until you wanted "more" he was happy to date, to have a relationship, to be exclusive.
I understand that - but you'd have to see it from a totally objective stance to see he wasn't doing anything wrong unless he was outright lying to you abot what he intended to do if you did "X" - you did "X" and then he didn't.
Basically someone in "indecision" - is up for consideration of any option or position - they're not going to commit to anything that in the dynamic has in it what they do not want.....obligation and requirement.
The mid-30s guys are still idealistic about marriage and having kids.
I'd disagree with the "idealistic"....I believe they're being realistic -= marriage is now what they desire becuase the timing is rigth in their lives according to what they want to achieve, and obviously they want kids as some point in this equation as well.
I don't believe your age short circuits that at 40. But I do believe it would possibly mean you'd have to convey what it is that you're willing to do in order to have the kids - sidetrack your career - or whatever it is. It's also possible some of them would prefer tobe married a few years prior to having kids and your age puts a slight slant on that possibility maybe.
But I think for the most part - they're guys that know precisely how old you are, pretty much. they're not dating you in order to have kids or a relationship. They're dating you because they figure you're balanced, mature, secure - that if you wanted marriage/kids you'd already have it - you're looking for fun, excitement, and sex.......and when you don't put out - they lose interest.
It's one thing to say you attract Jewish men.....but if you're knowing that they're jewish because of practicing the religion not just being of the culture/lineage - then there's something there to examine. Most people truly invested in theri religious beliefs and culture don't seek partnership outside of that culture. I have a hard time believing that they think you're Jewish. I'd lean more towards they know that you're what their culture and religion does not espouse, nor would someone of their own faith allow - as to what it is they're wnating to involve in. In short, it doesn't sound like you're the "girl they'd take home to mother" - they look at you and because of your age and status go "this is the girl not expecting to go home to mother but have a good time instead".
So all this said - waht you do beyond work - that would alloow you to meet people that share your interests, beliefs, adn values? Do you volunteer at any organization that you're passionated involved in the cause of? Are you in a sport that allows you to interact with people from all sectors of life - with at least one common interest - that sport? What do you do besides work?
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
I'm curiouis to hear the feedback you get from guys - however being yourself, your VERY BEST self, is the best way to go. How long can you keep up a front? And do you want to be with someone who's only with you 'cause you're being manipulative.
Pages