Underachieving emotional women are hot?
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| Sun, 01-01-2006 - 9:27pm |
So tell me men...
If it's a fact that successful, educated women are less likely to marry, is this because men find them less attractive marriage partners? I'm not asking for statistics here...I just want your personal opinion. I'm taking a poll.
In a related topic, are women that appear vulnerable more attractive? À la Faye Wray? I ask this for the following reason:
I was dissed by a guy I had been dating 4 months at a party for no apparent reason, and quite drunkenly, I ended up crying on the shoulder of a guy that I didn't know later that night (embarrassing, no?). This guy took pity on me and listened to my sad tale of woe. He then like a gentleman gave me his email and phone number and told me to call him to find out what my boyfriend's problem was, and walked me to the subway. Well the problem was the next day my b/f broke up with me...no reason ever given... :(
But as a happy consequence, me and this guy have developed a rather close friendship. He dates younger women as he is 8 years younger than myself, and nothing has gone beyond this platonic friendship. We go mountain biking, to parties together, and this NYE we spent (platonically) ringing in the New Year by talking about our respective dating activity and watching DVDs...
I told one of my closest friends about this situation and she says guys love feeling needed like that...they like it when a woman is vulnerable, and she encouraged me to be more vulnerable.
This goes along the same lines of men preferring women with accents...like women are somewhat dependent on the guy.
Does this make any sense to anyone? My parents are both actors...I have taught myself to cry on cue...what do you think guys? Attractive? Crying on a date? (Because I'm not going to fake an accent!)
And don't give me the 'just be yourself' response...it's def NOT working...I want your honest opinion. It doesn't have to be bawling, I was kind of thinking just tearing up a bit when talking about something personal...but I've always thought that the other person might think I'm really depressed or something...yuck...
Edited 1/1/2006 9:42 pm ET by goddess_juju

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>>They told me their ex gf was not ambitious at all.<<
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I agree. I think those guys were turned off by their exes not earning enough money and having too much free time on their hands (thus demanding more of their bf's time). So they decided to try something different and date the busy commuter (me). But then they decided to go back to familiar (their exes). These guys would get annoyed with me if I was working late and couldn't go out or would have to meet them later (like 9:00 pm). I had a different job at the time and I had to work some Saturdays just to meet deadlines or spend my Sunday mornings e-mailing on the computer. They weren't too thrilled with that either. Maybe I was selfish putting work first, but I have to pay my mortgage and bills and I can't rely on anyone else to do it. That's one reason why I'm so career minded.
Wingblade, you make a lot of sense. I really enjoy reading your posts.
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That's exactly what I want. I get bored if they have hobbies that don't interest me and I love to share my interests with whomever I'm dating as well.
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That's what I DON'T want. The guys I meet that are interested in me all seem to want this type of relationship. I was with a guy for 3 years and even though we had a lot of the same interests, he wanted to compartmentalize his life. He'd play tennis with his friends, I'd go play on my condo's court with my friends or neighbours. I was very interested in music and he never wanted me to go to his band practice (even though the other guys' gfs were there). He wanted me to go to his shows, because I would bring a few friends and clubs rate you on how many people the band brings in. But he pretty much wanted to keep our lives separate. I thought all guys want compartmentalized relationships. To me that's just not practical. There are only so many hours in a day and by the time he and I were finished with our separate activities, I would be too tired to have some alone time with him. This of course, made him upset.
Realize that neither extreme position is "balanced" - and balance is a must if you're to be healthy, mature, sane, successful, emotionally stable,and grounded as individuals.
How much interaction, attention, involvement a person wants with their partner is determined in great part by several factors:
Upbringing - if a person comes from a very "independently fashioned" family - they're not going to see all this interaction/consultation/compromise as a "good" thing or seek it as a desired element. This type of family is the type that comes together "over the dinner table" - so to speak. They're a group of alot of diversity in interests, abilities, talents, and pursuits - and they all come together to "share who I am and what I've done today" - with the people I love. But they're not the people taking vacations together as adult parents/adult children....and they're not generally the people living down the street from one another for the entirety of their lives. They're the people who see life asa challenge in an almost extremely optimistic way - there is nothing out there they cannot do - and they've come from a background where everybody "wishes them the best" - but doesn't have to be there in order to "ensure I do well".
If a person comes from a very integrated family that considers the needs, wants, considerations, feelings, and priorities of ALL family members before making decisions or taking actions......then they're going to want a partner that "sees things as they do, does what they do" etc. That would cause them less stress or consultation in order to "what they want to do". These are the types that have very close relationships with family members and friends all their lives. These relationships are formed in similarity of values - and these people aren't totally comfortable stepping outside a 'guaranteed circle of acceptance and love".....so they tend to bond tightly and stay tight - and to "get in" - you've pretty much got to be like they are. Otherwise, you're seen as a threat. These are the type that need all this support network by their side or at the finish line - of everything they attempt. The support network is willing to do it with resentment. However, there is a constant shift of "who's in the spotlight' - while the rest of us are REQUIRED to be in the background cheering. We're all for one, one for all. As everything requires complete attendance and involvement in some capacity - none of these people ever really fulfill thier potential at any given proclivity - they're spending alot of time that they could be achieving on their own - cheering on their own. Again, without resentment or regret.
The third type of family is "dysfunctional" - or "non-boundarized". And these people have absolutely no delineation between individuals at all. They all own each others problems, needs, feelings and ideas...the all believe that "everybody else is dion something about the problems"...and they all believe that everybody is "responsible for how I feel".
Those families are littered with alcoholics, drug addicts, with people living on the tettering edge of poverty or ocstracization....and it doesn't matter to them a bit. Because they're "all" in this together, and nobody will be outcast or ocstracized - there is no boundarization between who's responsible for what, who feels what, who wants what, who did what, who is what, or anything else.
If you don't run with unsuccessful or insecure people - then you're not at risk running into the dysfunctional group. And you'll run into one of the other two types.
But some of the misunderstanding between genders is a result of a societal and familial message in combination.
The societal message for little boys is "you won't have what you don't earn, you won't become waht you don't make of yourself". That means that a relationship is a luxury - not a necessity (accurate). That the relationship is not a goal - it doesn't make you what you're not (accurate). That a relationship is really only able to be a priority when you'e complete enough as an individual to know what you want with and from a partner, and are willing to comromise and concede in order to have partnership (accurate).
The societal message to little girls is "your worth and value and identity is to some extent caught up in holding two roles - wife and mother". That means cooperation, inclusion, and acceptance from an outside entity is mandatory - before you can become "complete". Not that your career, education, or other pursuits and accomplishments are diminished or ignored if you're not those things...but notice how it's still societally thought of that something is "wrong" with a woman - if she's not married, doesn't want to be married or have children - what is she - she's "a lesbian" - that's the default stigmata.
So boys are encouraged to go out and expand their horizons, explore thier potential, find their interests, meet their needs, and "become all they can be" - before thinking about "getting involved, attached, intertwined, comingled" with a woman.
Notice how common it still is for a young man of say 21 in college, who gets his girlfriend pregnant - to be pitied as now his "potential" is being diminished, and his option are less in life as a result of an oopsie.
and while they think she's being compromised - they also figure she's now where she was going anyway - so she's been saved alot of trouble and effort.
So that is what you're up against when you look at the level of interaction and involvement tha tyou want to have with a partner in life.
And it's important to find someone that wnats the same type of and percentage of involvement and intertwining as you do - so that by them "being how they are - you get what you want/need"....otherwise you're condemned to attempting to change them - so you don't have to....that does not work.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
LOL!! I totally hear you. I go out with SO MANY GUYS who have asked me out on a date...very nice that they asked me, no problem there, but then they're like, so what restaurant do you want to go to? And it's not because they are being polite; THEY REALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHERE TO GO!!! They ask me out, but they haven't thought enough to consider what to do? I would never do this. And this isn't guys new to the area either. We are talking NYC here people...there's a restaurant in every block!!
So what am I forced to do now? Can you guess? If I don't already know a place in the neighborhood he's considering, I research it ahead of time online and in Zagat's, so that at least we can have a decent time. I even read the customer reviews as well as the restaurant reviewers colums (when available), and make sure it's not outrageously expensive (since I always at least offer to pay part--but they never let me). Then I call ahead to make sure that the place still exists, and doesn't have a private party going on, and is open the night he's asked me out. Sometimes I visit the place ahead of time to make sure it's not too noisy (I have a soft voice). My research usually pays off; I've found some nice places this way. So I have a ready answer when they give me that blank look. I've saved the day many a time by doing this. But, really now.
BTW I had to do this with the current guy I'm dating and I'm glad I did. So the fact that he couldn't suggest a restaurant wasn't a total dealbreaker or anything...but I'm a little surprised how often this happens.
Edited 1/4/2006 11:32 pm ET by goddess_juju
>>And she also makes it very clear that she'd have no trouble finding another man to love... and marry... if the present man didn't please her.
I don't know...I have difficulty thinking this way!! My parents divorced when I was 10 and from that experience I realized that it's so expensive and emotionally draining...I really want to marry for life when I get married. Your friend sounds like a strong person who really knows herself and enjoys life, but if she's been divorced 2x already it's hard for me to relate.
But this part I think is good:
>>She stays very busy with all her daily activities... she's always on the go. She's good at juggling money and coming up with ideas. She manages to demonstrate all those qualities while letting a man feel as though he's leading her, in certain areas.
People like being around people like that. I can see that. What I think is, she probably is very secure about herself and feels no need to brag. I have a friend like this and I appreciate her all the more because she is not afraid to speak her very intelligent mind but she doesn't overdo it. She has an accent though which is an unfair advantage :)
Really good point. I didn't answer right away because this week has been exhausting, filling in for some people that took the week off and left some experiments dangling (grumble) and then I have a friend who is going through relationship difficulties and it requires a lot of phone conversation (why is she asking clueless me, is what I want to know!!) And your question really made me think so at various points during this week I've been considering what you said...here's my stream-of-consciousness response:
I let the guy define the relationship. I'm really not comfortable being in the lead. So I've had all manner of relationships. I'm very adaptable and I convince myself each time that my current situation is ideal. As long as the guy is leading things, it's cool. If he's a momma's boy, I usually end it quickly.
On the other hand, I can't stand being told what to do. I recently stopped seeing a guy because he asked me to turn the light on so that we could see the newspaper better, and he was sitting closer to the light. That was it for me (he did other disrespectful things, but this was the icing on the cake). I'm not going to be your little geisha girl. He's trying to win me back by bragging about himself (he's a high profile attorney who's on TV/radio often). He sends me news clips and editorials he's written...but I can't get the magic back.
So my ideal relationship would be one where I can interact with them as best friends. We won't have everything in common, but we will be compatible intellectually (that's a biggie) and we really just like talking with one another. Like, if I had a problem at work for instance, I would have no hesitation about bouncing it off them because they would be helpful and not judgmental.
So I guess it's a combination...we certainly don't need to spend every waking hour together; breakfast, dinner and sex would be fine during the week; but most definitely once we had an established relationship there would be NO separate vacations and most free time on weekends would be spent together. I really like the idea of having some space so that we can come home and talk about new things later, but also going on adventures together.
I really like the language discussion group I joined, and that's where I met the guy I'm currently dating, who's easily the best out of the 10 I've dated recently as far as the potential for being best friends/lovers goes...we really seem to be on the same wavelength. I get the feeling he is feeling same...and he seems like he's taking it slow which is the only way mixed up me can seem to go right now.
I do to some extent force myself to go to the activities around town, to be more 'social', because my true passions are best pursued in solitude (writing and science). I've taken so many courses in my life in pursuit of my other passions and all I ever meet are women, which I'm not saying is a bad thing, I've met some really great people, but these courses are replete with women and committed men: everything from music to photography to advertising to watercolor to mountaineering to yoga.
Anyway, I will continue thinking about the passions idea, and not just for meeting people but because it's important to have passions. It's just there doesn't seem enough hours in the day right now! Happy New Years to you and thanks for your great responses and suggestions.
Hopefully you won't mind a man's thoughts on this topic. Having read through most of the thread, I see that it has drifted in a number of different directions. I'll attempt to offer some of the key things I desire in a woman, a partner and in the relationship we would cooperatively build. So you know, I'm 44, single dad with 2 teen daughters for some perspective.
In the paragraph above, the key word is partner. I don't want a less-than or a greater-than type of person. I desire a partner that has the point of view that relationships are equality-based and mutually-beneficial. Some of the key characteristics that contribute to that are:
1 - Attitude. She needs to have a great, positive and outward looking attitude. If the core attitude is inward, there is a tendency to be selfish. If a person's core attitude is outward looking, then there is a tendency to view life as an environment in which we can add value.
2 - Ability to be self-sufficient. I want to know that she can be 100% self-sufficient in managing her life. I am that way and have been totally self-sufficient for many years. However, there also needs to be some balance and sharing once in a relationship. Both people need the opportunity to contribute value, rather than having their value blocked because they don't do something exactly your way.
3 - Value contribution - To me this is a fundamental part to mature relationships. we all have strengths and weaknesses. Much like our employment, we want to contribute value. For instance, one of my joys in life is to cook. I rarely use a recipe and like to invent on the fly. Sometimes it works, sometimes I have to order Chinese takeout LOL. I want to contribute this value, but I don't want it to be an everyday expectation of me.
4 - Shared and separate life experiences. - We all need time for personal growth and/or to enjoy our personal interests and hobbies. Sometimes this means that my partner is not going to be included in what I do. For a fun example I offer what happened in my life over the past 2 weeks. I live in Canada. Our sports passion is hockey. Over the past 2 weeks there was the IIHF Junior World Championship hockey tournament, hosted in Vancouver. Team Canada won gold last year yet had what was considered a weaker team this year. Over 19,000 people showed up to watch these 18 and 19 year olds play the game. I used to play and coach hockey for more than 20 years. It is part of who I am and this tournament is important to me. I want to go to a sports pub with the guys and cheer on our boys. It's the Canadian way. Team Canada won Gold on Thursday evening against Russia. The atmosphere around here was nuts. You would have been more than welcome to join in but don't even think about interrupting the experience because it is not meaningful to you.
5 - Shared responsibility for relationship direction. - This is a pet peeve of mine. Many woman take a "do nothing yet expect the man to do everything" in setting the relationship direction. Often when this happens, men are guessing and woman are judgemental when we don't match her wants and needs. When a woman takes that approach, it is a direct violation of the concept of an equality-based and mutually-beneficial relationship. Get in the game so that men have a realistic opportunity to share as a valued partner.
6 - Realistic prioritization. - I understand that many woman have the basic needs of validation, prioritization and security. I am prepared to offer this, once again in an equality-based and mutually-beneficial relationship. What this means is that I also need some acceptance and understanding that we all have various commitments, responsibilities and obligations in life. For instance, Monday to Friday, 8am to 6pm is my professional time. That will be my #1 priority at that time. I won't always have the ability to drop what I am doing to have a chat.
7 - Have a passion. - I believe that having a life passion is what drives us to personal fulfillment and success. Have a passion that is yours. Make it a meaningful part of your life. Then share the outcomes of your passion with me. I'll do the same.
Hopefully this gives you some insight into the thoughts from one man.
>>Shared responsibility for relationship direction. - This is a pet peeve of mine. Many woman take a "do nothing yet expect the man to do everything" in setting the relationship direction. Often when this happens, men are guessing and woman are judgemental when we don't match her wants and needs. When a woman takes that approach, it is a direct violation of the concept of an equality-based and mutually-beneficial relationship. Get in the game so that men have a realistic opportunity to share as a valued partner.
I wholeheartedly take responsibility for NOT doing this one!! I'm really content to let the guy take the lead...I'm finding it's not a good idea. It's really all about shared responsibility. I usually let them define the relationship without any complaints from me, but that doesn't mean I'm happy. I'm beginning to wonder...what was I thinking? I guess I worry about rocking the boat, losing the relationship if I start giving input as to where the relationship is headed.
In my last relationship I was just reacting...he would go out by himself to clubs on weekends for instance. I asked him why he didn't invite me along, since he knew I was free that night, and he said he was "enjoying his freedom." I never brought it up again, and just gave him his space, but I felt a little rejected.
I gave him LOTS of space...in fact as an example of this, I went away the following weekend on a planned trip with a girlfriend of mine to the Caribbean...and upon my return, he broke up with me. I fault myself because although it was obvious that he resented me going off and having fun without him (judging from the shocked look on his face when I reminded him I would be gone the following weekend, and the sad puppy act right before I left) he was doing the same thing...so I just followed suit thinking it would make him happy.
I actually would have preferred to have him along with me on vacation, it was just that he didn't seem interested in going anywhere together this past summer, and I didn't want to spend my whole summer in the city. The point is if I had defined things early on he probably would have bailed sooner...saving me a lot of heartache after I had invested so much emotionally in someone who was always trying to keep it casual. For instance, I might have gotten more upset about not taking a vacation together, which is really how I felt; instead I compensated and kept myself happy by planning a vacation anyway.
I always thought most guys HATE talking about relationship stuff and want lots of space, but I guess I have to look out for my needs too and provide some clues as to what I want, b/c this guy wanted his independence but also wanted me to be by his side. You can't let someone like this take responsibility for the relationship direction b/c they are probably 1) not interested in a serious relationship and 2) clueless. He was older than me and had more relationship experience so I just assumed he knew what he was doing, and he did...he got what he wanted out of it, I guess.
Edited 1/7/2006 7:06 pm ET by goddess_juju
Hi. I've got some down time before my evening begins. No, it's not a date, my friend is coming over and he, my roomie and I are taking it easy. My friend worked today and roomie and I are really tired.
Anyway, good points in your post. I like to understand what makes some people tick. My family was pretty balanced. We were all individuals, running in different directions, but we are very close. As adults, we took some vacations to the old country, but we had a few frivolous vacations when relatives weren't involved. My brother and his gf do a lot of things together, but they have their separate time too. That is balanced. I think that type of set-up would work for me.
My ex that I was telling you about, has a close family too. But he is the youngest of four. There is huge age gap between him and the other three. His oldest brother is 12 years older than he and his other brother and sister followed soon after. From the time he was nine or ten, he lived life as an only child, because his brothers and sister lived away at college and never came back to the house to live after they graduated. So he's used to being a loner. His mother was a quiet homemaker, and his dad was a Wall Street workaholic. He told me once that his parents never really spoke to each other and he didn't like a lot of things about his dad. But he became more and more like his dad everyday. He was amazed at how my family knows each other's daily activities and he found this sort of interaction to be "too much". He found my family "overwhelming". My family isn't loud or overbearing. We have a lot of fun together. At times, he wished he had that sort of interaction, but other times, he would say we were "corny", especially when we'd share stories about stuff we did or funny things that happened.
I know what you mean about society teaching boys to earn and get the best grades, while they teach women to be a help mate. Now, my dad raised 3 daughters and our grades had to be good like my brothers'. He didn't let us go through the make-up and boys phase unless we first did our homework and met all our other obligations at school.
My ex bf's mother was also clingy. One brother and sister lived almost across the country and we live on the East Coast. The other brother who stayed on the East Coast was a serious alcoholic. So the mother had no one to lean on, but my ex. Even after the kids grew up and moved the mother never returned to work. Her entire life was wrapped up in her husband and kids. So I really feel the ex wants a girl like his mother (even though he finds her clingy and annoying, he still caters to her). He told me at times that the other two longterm relationships ended because his gf's weren't ambitious. He said they couldn't hold a job. One of them would get fired because of careless mistakes and the other would quit jobs, because she had an explosive temper and had trouble with authority. After we broke up, he went back to the girl with the temper.
Anyway, I want to find a bf who has a close family like mine, but the closeness should be healthy (not out of co-dependency like my ex and his mother are). I think it's good to find out how they work a relationship when you start dating. I'm sure a few conversations will tell me if he "compartmentalizes" or if he like to share similar interests.
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