Your thoughts...?

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-30-2006
Your thoughts...?
22
Sat, 06-30-2007 - 10:54pm

How do you feel about men in recent years using the word "hot" to describe women in public?

I find it distasteful. People dont realize it but it actually degrades a woman publicly. It actually strips her of her femininity and categorizes her in a way that you could just visualize her with her strip club pole in her living room. It demeans a woman and assumes superiority of the male who bestows her with that title. He is letting her know where she places in the pecking order of life.

Years ago, I used to hear men use that word with women they didn't even know in bars as last call was being taken. I also used to hear men use that word when a guy was making it clear that she was the night's entertainment for them, like "hey babe - you're hot." Yeah, so is a pot of boiling oil - stick your d#ck in that.

If a man wants to use that phrase with with a woman he knows it best be used in the bedroom - it is one of those words. I see people on tv using it with their guests on their shows and it amazes me that no one sees how they just got insulted on public tv - instead they are grinning from ear to ear happy to be given a backhanded compliment - being knocked down to a thing instead of a person - a toy. How can these women not realize they are being insulted? I guess because it is done with a smile and wink - and lord knows many people need that attention even if it means nothing.

If a guy expected to pick me up using that word I would suggest to him that an inflatable doll would do the trick.

When a woman uses that word about a man there is almost a hero worship in her tone - not when spoken by a man. I dont know why but it doesn't sound the same.

I know I'm older than many of you, but if a guy I was dating described me in public that way, I'd be pissed. If I heard him use that word to describe another woman in public, I'd be pissed. That would be same as telling his wife that he would like to screw that woman.."and you wouldn't mind, right darling"? And if she says something about - he'll tell her that she is too sensitive or insecure or jealous...all the ways men have successfully trained women to eat dirt in the last decade. My motto: "see ya".

i dont know how the wives of men today tolerate their husbands or SO going on tv and talking about how hot another woman is or how they would like to boink them. I would feel mortified and publicly humiliated. I know men sometimes learn best when the shoe is on the other foot. I guarantee you that no man worth his salt would tolerate his wife yammering about how hot Matthew McConaghy (?) is. And if the topic of the day was migranes and orgasms a real man would not tolerate his wife then saying "Where is Matthew McConaughy, I need to get laid because when I frequently orgasm my migranes go away." Those jokes are not funny for a man or a woman. If you need to disgrace your SO for a ratings boost or because someone needs to look cool...then step all over someone else's feelings, not mine and she can have you.

Today many women dont ask for anything from a man in terms of respect, compassion, admiration or dignity - so many are just pleased that a man gives them a call and a squeeze. Women dont expect to get calls from men indicating if they plan on seeing them or any kind of real date - expectations are at an all time low - which is a field day for men.

i know that the society "does what its told" these days and no one questions authority but men have brainwashed or convinced women to accept treatment that is unbelievably degrading. Just look at today's fashion: pregnancy type smocks or tops with flip flops (barefoot and pregnant) or shoes with arches so steep that we'll develop fallen arches or hammer toes from being wedged downward.

Here's what I think about a society that has no mind of its own anymore (from the song, "Say I"): "The spirit is so lifeless with no spirit in your soul. Like children with no vision do exactly what they're told. Being led into the desert. For your strength will surely fade. Who is to blame? We'll surely melt in the rain. Say I." Perfect depiction of today's world.

Look at the size of breast implants - to the point of freakish (huge breasts dont equal attractive to me) and done in a way that will stretch out their skin - again - incurring damage to please some man. For men bigger is better - okay then they wont mind if I suggest that they get a penal implant because to me - size matters.

Somehow men have convinced women to lower themselves or damage themselves just to get a guy and twist degrading behavior around so that the "Girls Gone Wild" women think that they are cool, fun and wild - when they are completely the opposite. You can be fun, wild, sexy and cool without installing a pole in your home or degrading yourself. For some reason women have forgotten how to do it.

Sure...I enjoy looking at the gorgeous men used in tv commercials, movies, shows and magazine ads. And if I called one of them hot to his face, he'd take it as a compliment because the rules of engagment are different for men. A man can walk around in his jockeys and not worry about inciting women to attack him and being told he asked for it.

As far as porn goes - some videos can be used to enhance sex or sexual play between partners, but it is difficult to find videos that a straight woman would enjoy. Porn magazines: if a guy wants his Playboy then I hope he doesn't mind my Playgirl. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Luckily, I have not experienced what so many women have experienced with men being addicted to internet porn or any kind of porn. No man I have dated or slept with has ever had a stack of porn magazines lining his coffee table and...they did not frequent strip clubs. That doesn't mean we didn't watch porn. If a stack of porn is what a man values over a live woman...the magazines can have him. I'm outta there. If another woman manages to get a guy I'm dating to cheat in any way...I'm outta there..she can have the s.o.b. I dont beg a man for anything like that - there will always be another man out who will want me. I wish other women felt this way.

Oh, and if a man wants to sleep after sex, please do, because I want to, as well. Contrary to what men think, not all women like talking after sex.




Edited 7/1/2007 12:12 am ET by snafu2006

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sun, 07-01-2007 - 6:07am

snafu2006...

A MALE THOUGHT from Pianoguy:

Your post (which was a tad long) clearly points out the differences between males and females...and how both sexes often respond to one another!

So you can't impose a FEMININE standard on a male remark...no matter how distasteful you might find it! This also goes for male behavior.

You're certainly welcome to tell any man that you find his comments or actions offensive, but that doesn't mean we'll change our behavior...or even pay any attention to you!

Pianoguy

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-30-2006
Sun, 07-01-2007 - 10:40am
Hi pianoguy, thanks for the feedback. Sorry for the long post. I agree that one cannot force another to change. In those cases, where one person finds the other's behavior unattractive or class-less the only option would be to not date the person if the guy or gal doesn't have a problem with what the other finds degrading. I have witnessed women doing the same thing to men and I find it unappealing coming from women too. Think about it - why enter into a relationship? For love and companionship. We should have our self esteem intact (or at least be working on it) and be a friend to ourselves before entering into a relationship - we cant lean on our SO solely for that. If one doesn't find another's behavior loving then why stay?
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sun, 07-01-2007 - 10:58am

Hello again, snafu2006!

Pianoguy agrees with your comments about self-esteem in conjunction with love and relationships....as well as counting too heavily on a S.O.

More than a few members of both sexes can be self-confident and sure of themselves? And there are others who can also be shy, suspicious (aka paranoid) and over-sensitive about almost ANYBODY!

Personally...I find that many of us often assume a 'bravado'---or use crass dialogue---in order to compensate for the LACK OF CONFIDENCE that we possess inside ourselves!

Pianoguy

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-30-2006
Sun, 07-01-2007 - 12:29pm

I want to know more about your opinion on this...if you dont mind.

"I find that many of us often assume a 'bravado'---or use crass dialogue---in order to compensate for the LACK OF CONFIDENCE that we possess inside ourselves!"
---> I see..so the cockiness is really a way to compensate at the moment for a feeling of insecurity. I agree and I have seen plenty women behave the same way.

I dont know if you caught my other post on this, but I saw someone categorizing himself as a nerd or loser because in h.s. he was quiet and serious and, I guess, studious. I dont consider that behavior that to be nerdy or the guy to be a loser. But I have noticed that men who project that stigma onto themselves have a learning curve in dealing with the opposite sex in terms of manners or behavior that would be considered classy and not crude or oafish.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sun, 07-01-2007 - 1:56pm

snafu2006...

PG would like to start with your second comment....concerning all "nerds" in high school.

I WAS DEFINITELY ONE OF THEM...because my love was music and not sports! . So if a student didn't at least play or have enthusiasm for a particular sport...he or she was considered A NERD! Ironically...things changed for me after participating in the Senior Class Play, as well as several high school musical groups. I got 2 class superlative awards: MOST MUSICAL & MOST SINCERE! Go figure??

Back to your question #1:

COCKINESS is usually a way people masque their insecurities! A person can begin this type of behavior in elementary school and continue with it ALL THE WAY THROUGH HIS (OR HER) LIFE! Most of us 'grow out of it'---but a few don't...in spite of suggestions from friends, family members or total strangers to do so!

Maybe this is the reason the word: CLASS---has several definitions???

Pianoguy

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-30-2006
Sun, 07-01-2007 - 4:14pm

Most Sincere? Who woulda thought? hehe. I understand that you experienced people regarding you as a "nerd", but did YOU perceive yourself that way? Because that is what is really important. My first husband and I went to the same h.s. but did not actually meet until college - but...he played keyboards in h.s. and it did not affect his popularity in an adverse way at all. But maybe h.s.'s in nyc are different than where you grew up.

The people I have referred to as the "geeks" in s. florida in my other posts call themselves that - **I** did not come up with that term for them. I'm sure some thought I was being cruel, but I am not.

Maybe manners is a better term to see the behavior that I look for in a guy - class or classy can be deceiving.

So...why havent you found a nice girl? I know the pickings are slim out there, especially as we age. I dont know how old you are, but I'm 45 and as time goes on the scarier people get out there - and so desperate - ugh - horrible.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-16-2006
Sun, 07-01-2007 - 6:47pm

WOW!!! Thank you for taking the time to write this, you are SO right on! I was talking about this the other day...society has programmed women to think that degrading yourself is empowering. Now women want to be a certain way so they can have all the power, which in turn hands the power right over to men. Yes, Girls Gone Wild is perfect example.

Another is the way sex is now portrayed. The prudes are now the girls who won't put out until the third date. WHAT!!! Women have been told, you're just like men, you NEED sex, you should have sex with a guy as quickly as possible, so you can "try him out", just like men do, test drive the car, you're a liberated woman who's comfortable wither her body and her sexuality! A week later, that same woman is on ivillage or at her friend's house, mourning that the one night stand who she now wants as a boyfriend hasn't called her. Never once questioning that maybe she wasn't born to behave like she thinks men behave. Sex is not created equal, ever, and never will be. Trying to make it so only results in pain and misery.

Ask a man and he will tell you...women hold the keys when it comes to sex. That doesn't only mean they will have sex with us whenever we want. It also means they will view us as we ask them to view us. If we are easy, they are simple creatures, to them that means we want them to think of us as easy. And fun, sure, because who doesn't want to get it for free? If we're the girl taking our top off and kissing our girlfriend on camera, well, I don't need to elaborate, they will have no respect for us, because we have asked them not to.

Does this mean women hold most of the responsibility? Yes, unfortunately, unfair and awful as that may be. And look what we're doing with it. We can never undo the damage porn stars, Girls Gone Wild, The Real World, rap videos, rap SONGS, and our boyfriend's past girlfriends have done, but we can refuse to be a part of it. Just rise above. On this one, it really is that simple. RISE ABOVE. Refuse to participate in the madness. Live by the standards you believe in. And yeah, if you discover that your man is more interested in the shallower side, leave him to pursue it.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-30-2006
Sun, 07-01-2007 - 8:42pm

"Sex is not created equal, ever, and never will be." ---> I do believe that a woman can enjoy casual sex (because I have), but a man will always do it better and without any pain or misery.

As far as NEEDING sex- everyone enjoys sex and if a woman wants to have sex by the third date or the second date or whatver - that is HER choice. I have never been told what you mentioned in your post - eg. "test drive the car." I have had a number of different casual relationships and I have been married twice and if I want to sleep with someone it is my choice and on my terms and no man has ever spouted that crap to me. But, I am a little different than a lot of women. I dont want to be in a serious relationship unless I really dig the person. Sex is a physical release for a man and a woman. There is no other purpose for a clitoris besides pleasure.

"if you discover that your man is more interested in the shallower side, leave him to pursue it." ----> I couldn't agree with you more. I do not fight for a guy or over a guy. If I am out with a guy and he seems to prefer the company of another woman over me, then I'll just leave him to enjoy his evening without me. I'll leave him right there and never say goodbye. I don't get all worked up emotionally over men anymore - I havent in MANY years - because it's not worth it. They come and they go and even when they are married they still come and go. Instead of crying over losing a man a woman should accept the fact that he and she were not the right fit and better she knows sooner than later. If a woman wants to cry over losing someone, let it be over losing herself, her heart and her soul over someone who is totally not worth any tears. Sure, we'll hurt over misplaced trust but we should learn from it so it wont happen exactly the same way again.

What I cant believe is when women get breast implants and it is inserted through the nipples or inside breast tissue instead of inside your chest cavity you can lose nipple sensation. How horrible to lose that sensation. Women can have breast/nipple orgasms - it occurs in and around the vagina (it is JUST like having a vaginal or clitoral orgasm)and that is WAY too valuable to lose. Those girls can keep their double d's - I'm having more fun and I had implants put in over 20 years ago. I just went up one size to bring my body into proportion - my idea- and my first husband (who was my BF at the time) cautioned me not to have the surgery. I'm not sure if men can have nipple orgasms but I know many a man who enjoy having their nipples sucked and licked and touched especially when they are masturbating. And if they or women don't have any desire for that or dont feel anything ...I feel sorry for them.

"If we're the girl taking our top off and kissing our girlfriend on camera" -- this is another thing that I have witnessed over the years - men egging women on to have threesomes with another woman so the wife or GF can still keep her man. If the guy wants another woman, she needs to just let him go. Over the last 28 years I have been invited (and I mean actually invited - like "this thursday we were thinking of...") to a number of threesomes by women who told me that they were going to do it because the guy was pushing for it. And I thought a lot of these women were too together to allow themselves to be pushed around that way. I declined the invitations.

But men do seem to love watching women kiss other women. One night I was out with my second ex husband and another couple. I knew the woman from work and once upon a time I thought we were friends, but I realized later we were not friends. But...back to our night out. We were at an outside bar listening to music and we all had plenty to drink. Out of nowhere, while my exhusband's head was turned towards the bar the woman just planted a kiss on my lips - not open mouth. Out of reflex my lips pushed back, - like a kiss that sounds like "mwaa". First of all, I never expected her to do that and then..I didn't expect her to say "that was a good kiss". I could tell her boyfriend liked it a little too much, and I laughed and thought "WTF?" "What just happened?" My ex missed everything. Now she always kissed women in the office on lips hello but I never thought she was gay. Soon after that night she and I went out somewhere and we were in her car and when she parked the car I just sat in my seat and turned my head and stared over to her waiting for her to say something about what she did - an explanation - she just hung her head, which was what I wanted her to do.

Avatar for blondie0506
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 07-02-2007 - 2:24pm

Great, well thought out post!

Have you read: Female Chauvinist Pig: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture, by Ariel Levy?

I'm in the process of reading it now. Interesting book.

"...Levy cleverly leads us to explore the role models women aspire to emulate. We are not pursuing the confident, self-determined, powerful, free ideal the women’s liberation movement would have dreamed for its daughters. Instead, our icons are porn stars and strippers and prostitutes. Paris Hilton and Jenna Jameson flaunt their successes in the pornography industry, and in doing so seem to earn our adulation...

... The reality that we model ourselves on images whose "individuality is erased" is harsh, yet Levy’s work is imbued with hope – hope that women can celebrate their uniqueness instead of their ‘hotness’, explore their sexuality as delight rather than consume sex as currency, and succeed professionally because of their brilliant minds and personalities, not because of their brilliant bodies.--Megan Jones Ady"

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-30-2006
Mon, 07-02-2007 - 10:47pm

No, I have not read this book. I must check it out. It sounds very interesting.

The sad part is that teenage girls (and even younger) are not able to see the manipulation and succumb to peer pressure by men and women to perform sex acts they are not emotionally ready to handle for "popularity". Such coersion by boys. If they dont submit they dont get to date and their "status' among their peers deteriorates. How unfortunate for them that it is all twisted around, yet they dont see it.

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