Do actions speak louder than words??????

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-25-2004
Do actions speak louder than words??????
8
Sun, 11-27-2005 - 4:11am
First off, I want to apologize because what I'm about to write is almost a novel! (LOL)
I've been with my boyfriend for almost 2 years, and things have been going great. He's 25, and I'm almost 24...He's Lebanese and I'm Turkish/Italian (American). Back in March, we were having an argument and he said he could never marry me because I'm not Lebanese and that it would be difficult to raise any children because of cultural differences and because of the fact that he said most inter-cultural relationships end in divorce. (He does have a point; my father is from Turkey and my mom is Italian-American..they divorced when I was 4. But they didn't divorce because of cultural differences; my dad was the "Cassanova" type...) There was another reason too, but I'll get to that later. Anyway, so I tell him that any marriage takes work, and that even if he were to marry a Lebanese girl, they could still end up getting divorced because I've seen it happen more than a few times. And he says that even if that happened, at least he would have known he tried. I cried for 2 days; I was so heart broken...but I pushed it to the side for the time being and went on with our relationship. A few months after that conversation, he started bringing me around his family more, and I got to know his mom and older sister very well. (This is almost unheard of in Arabic families; there really is no dating and guys don't really bring girls home unless they're serious and thinking about marriage.)In August, he moved to another state with a friend of his to start a business..he even asked me to move down there by December!!! His mom continued to cook for me everyday and I got close with his sister as well. But things didn't work out with the business because his friend totally screwed him over, so he was back by September. I was glad to see him back, but heart broken as well because I knew he felt like a failure and was hurting; he had lost everything, including thousands of dollars. To me, it doesn't matter if he was a millionare or a bum living in a box; I would still love him regardless. About 3 weeks after he came back, somehow the marriage issue came up again and he basically said the same thing, saying how he doesn't think he'll ever change his mind on that. Then in the same breath he said " Well, I don't know how it'll be in a few years..if we ever get really serious-" Then I cut him off, saying why would he want to get in a serious relationship with me if he won't even consider marriage? Then he says he doesn't know how it'll be (again). I wouldn't be so confused except his actions are totally contradicting what he is saying...He treats me how a man treats a woman he's planning on marrying one day..he treats me like a princess, is always there for me, would do anything for me (as I would for him), has a key to my apartment, we each have a spare set of each others car keys, cuddles with me even if there's no chance in having sex that day, sends me flowers for no reason, talks about the future (as in doing things a year from now), I'm on his sister's auto-insurance policy (it's cheaper that way b/c I'm under 25), he let me drive his car for a month while I was looking for a new car, and we have PERFECT chemistry on all levels..we're each other's best friend. A few weeks after that conversation, he bought me a ring and a diamond tennis bracelet, but I didn't ask him if there was any meaning for it. I told his sister what he had said about marrying a Lebanese girl, and she was shocked. She says that he talks about me like I am his wife, his "other half", and that a few days prior, they were at the store, and she say a baby girl and said "Hopefully you'll have a little girl one day soon" My boyfriend smiled and said "First we have to find good jobs and we have to be secure." She asked what he meant by "WE" and he said "Hala and me." (Hala is my name.) She told me that her brother doesn't like to promise anything; just don't leave him because he needs me and that he will come around. My boyfriend is very close with his older sister, and she wouldn't BS me on anything, especially this. She told me that I'm like a sister to her and that she prays that one day her brother and I will get married. He's even told me that he doesn't want to get married for 4-5 years until he is secure and has a business and is financially secure as well. Of course, I don't blame him for that. I am just wondering if maybe he's saying all this to me because he really doesn't want to promise anything in case something happens, and maybe because he took such a big blow from the failed business (emotional, financial, ego, etc.) he doesn't know what he's doing right now? Then a few days ago, we were at his brother's wedding and his uncle came up to him and asked him if we were planning on getting married (in arabic he asked him this; I can understand more than he thinks I can) and he told him (in Arabic) "You never know, maybe one day". Do you think that maybe words are only words; that actions are the true measure of how someone truly feels about you??? My guy friends tell me that I need to stop talking about marriage, it's pushing him away and that 2 years isn't really that long of a time to be thinking about marriage. I don't want to get married right now; I will wait for however long it takes until we get married, but I won't stick around if there's no chance whatsoever...I just want the CHANCE...don't throw it away just because I'm not Lebanese. My boyfriend also has told me that he prefers to expect the worst; that way if things (anything) don't work out, he's not dissapointed. I'm trying to get him to change his thinking on that, because I don't think it's healthy to have that frame of mind, that you should always stay positive...he is just a very difficult person to figure out, even his own family says that about him and they are his own flesh and blood! Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated!!!! (And again, I'm sorry about the rambling on and on!)
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-25-2004
Tue, 11-29-2005 - 1:38am
does anyone have any advice on what I should do????
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-29-2005
Tue, 11-29-2005 - 11:52am
Funny. I am lebanese as well and let me tell you something about arab men. They want perfection. They want to know that the person they will marry is perfect in every way. Not only does she have to be beautiful, but she must be successful, religious, compassionate, etc etc. So you prob possess all those qualities except for one thing...you are not "lebanese". If his sisters and family all reassure you, then just leave it alone. He is prob feeling pressured alot in his life. At that age, he is trying to make it into the world. He loves you and loves spending time with you....but if you add any pressure, he will try and push you away...which is maybe what he is doing now. Give it some time. If you never bring it up, but he does (about the marriage not working out) then just leave him alone for awhile to figure out what he really wants. Don't be his doormat. But make him realize how he truly feels on his own. Good luck!
iVillage Member
Registered: 06-30-2003
Tue, 11-29-2005 - 1:02pm
I think that it is a tough call. He acts like you are his world but then he says but you are not Lebanese. In the end if he decides to not be with you and it's b/c of the sole fact that you are not Lebanese you will kick yourself in the rear for not having walked away when the issue first surfaced. However, his actions show something else ths leaving you in a tough spot. I say wait it out some and don't talk about marriage. See what he expresses all on his own. If he mentions marriage calmy say but what about the cultural differences and see how he addresses it then. @ years is NOT too soon to talk of marriage. Only you know when the time is right and if you are mentioning it it is for a reason. However, don't pressure someome into that state of mind b/c you may push them away TRUST ME :(
Good luck and keep us all posted!
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-28-2005
Tue, 11-29-2005 - 1:47pm

Honey there's 10,000 things here that just scream "this won't work".

He's a pessimist by nature - you don't agree with that. So you're trying to get him to be optimistic where it's sure to result in "disappointment" according to his reasoning.

He's already stated he doesn't want to marry outside of his culture. Now heads up - you said the reason your parents divorced was that your dad was a Cassonova type - but not for cultural differences.

Honey, that IS a cultural difference because in Turkey there is nothing wrong with having a mistress or sleeping around. It'd be wrong to leave your wife and children, but being sexually unfaithful is not a breach of contract. That's the type of "cultural" issues you're up against here and you can't see it for what it is.

You're doing alot of assuming, thinking that this sharing of insurance, being taken around the family and to weddings - means that you're being "slowly integrated for total inclusion".

In reality, if someone is never going to be become integral to the equation....it's much easier to bring them around people and in situations. If he knows that it is unlikely because of his believes, standards, and expectations of himself that he's ever to marry you - taking you around his family and including you in things isn't a big deal. If they cut you off or you leave - it's no loss. YOu were "along" - but you weren't intertwined and connected to the bigger picture.

Your optimistic way of thinking has you beliving "everything has meaning" and it does...but it has you believing "the best of everything" - rather than objective review of everything that is and is not in play, is and is not said. You just optimistically take what you like that fits what you want to hear/see - and slot it in. He's doing the same pessimistically - but in his world it means he's disappointed alot less than you'll ever be. Some things will work out to the positive - and because he doesn't expect it - it'll be a nice surprise But that which doesn't work out well - won't hurt him he didn't expect anything positive of it anyway, and he didn't rely on and revolve waht he does around a "positive outcome".

He's not ready to marry yet.......and since he hasn't told you a timeframe when familially or culturally he will be - what you'd best get prepared for is a shock.

because it's very likely that it's been determined who he'll marry and when, and that is why he's taking this time in his life to be with people that interest and excite him.

Keep something in mind...here in America the death of marriage is the "reason" we marry. We marry for "love". And love is the death of marriage - because "in love" is a feeling and situationally determined. Rarely do we enter into marriage or any type of relationship with the approach of "I want the best for you as you determine it to be becuase it's an honor and privilege to affiliate with someone of your character and caliber." We want the best of "us" (really me) in light of what we have together and how it'll be that'll meet my needs.

In other cultures....marriage is often what it was originally brought into being for. It's used as an institiution that ensures familial strength of number and assets and accrual and power.......it's something that has value as an institution because of the 'good" it brings to the entire group it serves - not the individuals per se.

You're wanting to marry out of love, and let love see you thru richer poorer, sickness, and health....good times and bad - love will carry you thru. That's an American misconception...that is proven wrong in the staggering number of divorces.

If you marry "for love alone" - marriage does not last. Because in love is a feeling that'll fluctuate with situational change. Love itself is not jsut a feeling - it's a fact. But it's not relegated to one person - tehre are many types of love. And to understand what love fundamentally is - you've got to have it for yourself, you've got to value institutions and entities that you have deemed as sacred. You've got to understand that it isn't about benefitting on a personal level, adn that quite often you won't benefit at all for the "greater good".

Why cultural differences do us in is that we're not all pre-programmed to value, define and interpret everything in the same context or way. So here's what you'd do well to really do.

Research his culture. NOT HIS FAMILY. Research the culture that they adhere to as a set of standards and values and priorities - find out if you'd want to be live in that standard, in that lifestyle....find out if his culture would have you being subjected to things that would offend you as an American because of your standards and values, but that by his culture is "just the way it is - ntohing to get upset about".

And then realize you adopting his culture in full, and adhering to those standards completely, and you adopting that perception, role, and mindset - doesn't guarantee you he wants someone who's had to "reprogram" herself......vs. be programmed by default of cultural upbringing.

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-28-2005
Tue, 11-29-2005 - 3:10pm

Hala,

You sure are in a tough spot at the moment? If it was me and he said he could never marry a non-Lebanese, I would have left immediately. But what do you really want from him right now? A commitment, engagement or just his honesty? Let him make his mind up. He may not be ready for marriage right now but it's not fair to leave you hanging either.

I can share with you my experience when I was 24 and into an IR relationship. I applied for a job across the Pacific Ocean and was determined to choose career over love. Years later, I realized that the idea of losing me made my fiance (age 28 then) decide that he wanted to marry me. I got a rock on my finger within 5 months of meeting him. Being cautious, I waited 2 more years before we tied the knot. However, my story did not end in "happily ever after". Culture and in-laws played a big part in my unhappy marriage. I'm pretty sure you won't have problems with your future MIL and SIL though. Good luck on figuring out your man.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-25-2004
Wed, 11-30-2005 - 5:41pm
When we first started dating, he told me that he wanted to get married in around 6 years, when he would be 29. (He was 23 when he told me this; he's now 25.) He also stated (and there were other people around when he said this, and they remember him also saying it) that it didn't matter if the woman he married was Lebanese as long as they were in love. Additionally, he has said in the past that he will be with the woman he's going to marry for at least 5 years before they would get married so he can see all aspects of her. When we were having that argument, he denied ever saying it didn't matter if the girl was Lebanese or not, but I know for a fact he did. I know he's in no way ready for marriage right now; he's the type of guy that has to be 100 % secure with his business, financially secure, etc. before he even thinks of marriage. (And he has also told me this.) He told me (during our argument) that he's told his ex-girlfriends (who were Lebanese) that there was no chance in them ever getting married; that he was in no position to even think about marriage...SO I don't think it necessarily is about me being Lebanese or not; maybe that he just doesn't want to think about it right now. He is still recovering from the blow of his failed business, and he has been un-employed (though actively looking for a job) since he moved back; living off of what little he does have saved from odd jobs here and there. He says he still feels like a failure, that he doesn't feel that good about himself and that if he doesn't find a decent paying job by the new year, he's going to look into getting a contracting or translating job in Iraq (it would last about a year) because he can't keep going on like this. I pray it doesn't have to resort to that....I honestly feel that at this point in his life he has a lot on his plate, so to speak, and doesn't know what he's doing.(And he's even told me this.)
As for bringing me around his family, I am the first girl that he's actually brought home..and he has had girlfriends before me. Both of his parents are Hajjis, very traditional, so I don't think it's so easy just to bring a girlfriend into their family (like so many american families)....As for learning about their culture, it is very similar to Turkish culture (I've been to Turkey a few times, and spent 3 months there last year.) My father's side is Muslim, my mother's is Catholic...my parents didn't try to force either religion on my brother and I, they let us choose..and I tend to go more with Islam. My boyfriend is Muslim as well, and of course our children (if we ever had any) would be Muslim...and I think maybe this is another issue he has; maybe he's afraid I'll change my mind and decide to raise our children Catholic. Anyway, the point is I just think that he doesn't know what he wants right now, and maybe I should leave the whole marriage issue alone for now.
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-28-2005
Wed, 11-30-2005 - 7:17pm

I think you're not hearing what is pretty clear to the rest of us.

His family is very tradition and their approval is important. So it's not "I"ll do what they say/want because they say/want it"....it's "I'll be doing what they approve of because I want their aproval".

That's one thing to delineate between on your side.

All this he did say/didn't say - doesn't really apply. This is not court and you can't hold him to anything.

The issue that you're referring to about the business etc is termed "timing". And men are all about it. Women grow up believing they're not complete without a husband and children. That takes "cooperation" from someone else then in order to be complete.

Men grow up believeing "I won't have what I don't earn and achieve, and I won't become waht I don't make of myself". There's no cooperation required for them to get what they want - if they can define what it is.

The man is saying until I'm financially solvent to "X" percentage or some clearly defined point he has - I will not marry. He's up to now assumed he'd achieve that status by around 29. But he's found out in the first failed attempt that it's not as easy to succeed as he thought and that he didn't make some good business judgements and decisions. so he's now "further" away from being at the state of financial/professional solvency for him to pursue partnership - than he's ever been before. If he thought at 23 it'd take till 29. He's now 25 and no closer to it than he was at 23 and he's got to learn from the mistakes after his wounded ego is healed - before he can start on round 2 of success. He can't make up for lost time......a good economy, smart business decisions, total focus, and a responsible and intelligent approach might put him at the dollar figure he wants to be by 29. But the economy itself he doesn't predict or control.

What most men who have "goals" to achieve prior to marriage are prone to do is not think about partnership at all-nor are they "interviewing for potential" the women they date, sleep with, or live with for that parntership.

Their focus primarily is on getting to where they require themselves to be...and then they begin a partner search.

As a rule - the person who's been aruond thru the thin - is not around as a choice in the thick. Taht's because you become associated with lean times, hard times, negative setbacks, and so forth that have gone while you're around. while you term is "standing by your man"....he terms it "staying in the crap".....and he doesn't respect it, and doesn't want to align with someone "willing" to stay in crap. That means you dont have personal aspirations and goals.

If you would - think Eliza Doolittle and My Fair Lady. The external transformation was necessary for her to be "accepted" in the socially upgraded world Higgins and his crowd inhabited. She was no less in terms of character or integrity than the day she walked thru the door as a flower vender on the street...but she was less socially graceful, acceptable, and dignified to be sure.

That's rather what 'timing" as an approach does to all people - gender aside. They want to be at a particular place, status, situation, or position prior to choose a partner. Everybody that was with them prior to them achieving that status is not "good enough" - because they were not good enough before their achievements and successes. They want someone polished, poised, graceful and dignified by their side, someone who hasn't been "drug thru the crap".

So, don't stay with him thinking that you staying or any type of involvement at this point indicates commitment to your well-being, or a future with you. He's got his focus on other aspects of his life and is pursuing them doggedly. You're a welcome diversion and distraction, you're alot of fun.......but you're no what he's going to have on his arm when he becomes who he wants to be. He'll want someone he can't "get" now as a result of now "not good enough" he is right now - in his own estimation. Nothing you do changes it.

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-25-2004
Thu, 12-01-2005 - 2:28am
Wingblade- you wrote "....That means you don't have personal aspirations or goals" So you mean to say that just because I am standing by him while he is going through hard times means that I am revolving my life around him, waiting until he can marry me and take care of me? I am in my first year of law school, with 2 more to go...I know I will be successful once my career gets going, with or without him. I choose to stand by him when he is going through the hard times (because he has done the same for me), and neither he nor his family respects me any less for doing so. It may sound crazy to you, but there are some guys out there that actually want to know that the woman they're going to marry is marrying them for WHO they truly are; not because of their status or how much money they make. (And no, that just doesn't happen on tv or in movies or books...I have known quite a few people who stayed with their SO through thick and thin BEFORE marriage, and their partners didn't respect them any less after they were married. As for his family, yes they are traditional but BOTH his mother and sister have said that they hope we get married one day...and in arabic families (as well as Turkish) the mothers and sisters have the most influence over any situation. And a few of his cousins (as well as his uncle) are married to Americans; and his family accepts them. Before we had any of these arguments over marriage, I was bringing up marriage quite a bit (maybe more than I should have) and maybe him saying those things was his way of trying to pull away from me because he doesn't even want to think about marriage at this point.