Should the girl ever ask out the guy?
Find a Conversation
| Tue, 08-09-2005 - 3:57pm |
Ok ladies, here's a question for ya. I just read some lame MSN.com relationship advice article about how it's a great idea to ask out the guy if he isn't making the first move. Personally, I think it's a bad idea 99% of the time. There are some special situations where the guy is perhaps too shy, introverted, and maybe even nervous around you (probably inexperienced) where you could consider making the first move by asking him out. But again, I stress, those are special, specific, and rare circumstances. Almost everytime I think it's a bad idea for the girl to ask out the guy. I'm not closed minded or old fashioned, as you will find out as you read below. I just don't think it usually works out well, and it makes the woman look a little needy I think, even if she's not.
Let me give you some background first, I am not some dating guru here, I get shut down from time to time like any other guy. I'm not a player either. (I'm 27, single, and really looking forward to marriage... to the right woman. I do have some relatively high expectations, but I think they are realistic. There's nothing wrong with having high standards, and I refuse to settle.) Basically, I'm a typical good guy with plenty to offer the right woman; so I'm no geek, but no serial dater/flirt either. Meaning I get my fair share of interested women, but not any woman I want either.
So maybe this doesn't apply to guys like me. Maybe that's why I don't like this idea. If I were more quiet/shy/intimidated by asking a girl out, maybe her asking me out would be very welcomed relief. But if a guy like me was asked out by a girl, chances are I'm probably not interested. The only time this would work for me is if I hadn't had the chance to ask her out yet myself. See, within my social circles I meet different girls from time to time, but mostly I already know them. (work, church, mutual friends etc.) If I was interested, I got their number and asked them out fairly soon after meeting them (a week or two). If I wasn't interested I would still be friendly and kind (not flirting) but I would not ask them out of course. (What's a guy to do, not be friendly to a woman just because he doesn't see a future with her?)
But then there's always that girl or two that have a little crush on me, and they read into something I did or said one time, as if I was interested, and they try to ask me out. If I wasn't interested enough when I first got to know you, why would that change? If something somehow did change do you think I'm that big of a wimp or not gentleman enough to not ask you out? How hard is it for me to just ask for your number? If you say no, no big deal. One date is just one date. But now if the girl asks me out, now I feel bad for saying no.
Here's why: For whatever reason, traditions, by habit, nature etc... It still is not common practice in our society (for most people), to have the girl ask out the guy the first time. Let's be honest, it just isn't very common... yet. Therefore if a girl goes out of her way to muster up the courage to ask me out, she probably really likes me. (Unless she's made a habit of asking guys out - definately not a good thing IMHO)
So it's twice the rejection than if the guy asked the girl out, because it's obvious to both the guy and the girl that she decided to take the initiative, rather than wait for him to ask her out like normal, which probably means she likes him a little extra. Therefore the risk and possible rejection is greater for her. However, it's less risk when I guy asks the girl out, because it's unsure of how much he likes her. Guys ask out girls all the time, some they like more than others. Maybe he likes her a lot, maybe he likes her a little. Either way if the girl says no, then he can act like he wasn't that heartbroken about it cause he didn't have his heart into it much. But again, if the girl goes out of the way to do it, then it's usually someone special in her mind. Plus girls are more sensitive and emotional (in general, don't hate me for saying that!), so they are risking more, therefore going to hurt more if the guy says no. Plus, I have 3 sisters who I love dearly, and I couldn't imagine making them sad like that, so I have a hard time saying no when I'm asked out by women.
So I wish I could tell those women, "Please don't ask me out! If I like you I will ask you, if I don't, sorry I'm just not into you. It doesn't make you a bad person, I just don't see something happening between you and me. So please lets be friends and leave it at that!"
Am I being too harsh here? Do you think me too narrow minded? Am I too old fashioned? Think what you want, but I don't think I feel this way for any of those reasons. I just don't think it's usually a good idea for the girl to ask out the guy the first few times. Make sure there's mutual interest, (ie; you've gone on about 3 dates) then you can ask him out. Now this doesn't mean you can't invite a guy to a party or something like that, just not on a date. Sorry, ladies please just leave the poor guy alone if he doesn't ask you first. He probably sees you as just a friend and nothing more. Hopefully you don't let him turn a friendship with no possible relstionship potential, into just FWB (unless that's what you are looking for). Because I think that someone usually ends up getting their feelings hurt, because someone thought it could develop into something more. This might sound harsh, but ladies, lets not be so desperate. Let's have some kind of standards.
So please ladies, if you have a hard time getting guys, don't start asking them out. They just aren't interested. That doesn't make you a bad person, it just means there a thing or two you could change about yourself to make yourself more appealing and attractive to that guy (or guys in general), that you may have not noticed before. So either move on and find another guy, or ask yourself a few questions (this goes for guys too). Do you have an abrasive personality? Do you appear to have little motivation or ambition? Are you overweight? (Sorry again it sounds harsh, but this is a popular one, it had to be said!) Or it could be something smaller, maybe you pick your nose, wear too much makeup/dress slutty (both big turn offs!), or have bad teeth. Sorry, but I know a girl right now that I would love to date if she got her teeth fixed and lost 20-30 lbs. Her teeth are really really bad. But she's a sweet heart, and has a wonderful personality, but we've been just friends for 2 years. I would never flirt with her, or give her the impression that I'm interested in more then friends, however if she made a change or two I probably would be interested.
Now I know I'm being labeled as shallow and a jerk right now, but I have to be attracted to my future g/f and wife, and right now this woman is just not attractive. I am sorry that again sounds harsh, but I'm just being honest. I can't tell you how many women I know that have a great personality, but have one or two things they need to work on before I could seriously consider dating them. Unfortunately it's usually something physical. BTW, looks aren't everything, and no it's not even the most important thing in a relationship. However, I do look at it as a prerequisite. Meaning, once I am attracted to a woman, it suddenly takes a back seat in importance to everything else, but until I am attracted to her, how can I want to kiss her let alone be intimate? I am sorry, but it's a fact of life. There are literally thousands of women out there that would find instant boyfriends (and men who would find girlfriends) if they'd just work on one or two things, usually their looks. I know men are the same way, either too lazy and fat, or else too shallow and mean. What can you do?
Which raises another question: How hard is it to stay at least somewhat in shape? All it would take for people (guys and girls) would be 30 minutes every other day, and then laying off the big fatty diet! Yes some people have low metabolism/some disease which prevents them from losing weight, but I bet that's a lot less frequent than people claim. Those people with physical ailments obviously this doesn't apply. But to the rest of our over-weight and out of shape country (we are one of the fattest countries in the world if not the fattest), is it really that hard to work out every other day for 30 minutes, and resist that chocolate cake? I am not blessed with a natural buff and fit physique, so I go to the gym 3 to 5 times a week, and I still have a ways to go. I'm not saying we all have to look like models, but how about getting in shape?
Ok, I've ranted long enough. Maybe I should have divided this into 2 different topics? I know I've probably just upset a lot of women, but I think it all had to be said. Hey, I'm willing to hear your comments. Plus I know that us guys have a lot to work on too. Heck most of what I said applies to guys too. I'm not saying that my opinion is 100% right, just that it seems to be mostly true. Let me know if I'm wrong or heck one or two people might even agree with me. Sorry if I've offended or made enemies, I didn't mean to.
-MFG

Pages
osmama99,
Three short things then maybe we can end this post which has turned into something entirely too long.
1.) Sorry about the Osama Bin thing, no your not a terrorist, I just saw your name and thought it a funny, yet hopefully harmless jab. Perhaps it was tasteless.
2.) You said, "I think that if you have read any of my other posts you'll see that I don't attack people. I'm not a nasty person. I also don't shy away from stating my opinion." Hmmmm... that sounds more like me, but if you say so... Maybe we have more in common then we thought.
3.) I don't think I ever apologized for stating my opinion, I apologized for offending people because of my opinion. I don't mean to or want to offend people, but I also don't back down from my opinion(I still stand by what I said). If I did apologoize for giving my opinion itself, that's not what I meant.
-MFG
Liyahberry, this post is not just to you, but to all posters who are saying that *every* interested man will *always* take the initiative.
I must strongly disagree with the generalisations being made on this thread. Because no generalisations are 100% true. While what you are saying may be true for many men, I think you're all forgetting those men who have some social skill limitations.
Take for example a man who has Asperger's Syndrome (on the autism spectrum). Picking up on social cues is extremely difficult for him. He has trouble picking up on your flirting vibes. Combine this with the fact that he's also likely to be perceived as eccentric, he's probably had way more than his share of knock backs. So, he's unconfident when approaching girls. And let me tell you, he dearly wants a girlfriend, but is all too aware of the social limitations holding him back.
This man is probably also highly intelligent and is likely to work in the fields of computer programming, engineering, science etc. He's probably got a warped sense of humour and is interested in some weird and wonderful things. There is absolutely no reason that he can't have a relationship, however, he needs a woman who understands his limitations and will take the lead when necessary.
I suggest that you all pull your heads in for a moment and remember that not everyone has great social skills and not everyone can do what is expected. Some people need help and guidance. And before you say that you would never encounter such a situation, remember that this situation effects 1:100 adults. It's not that rare.
Aisha (mum to 8yo dx autism)
If that young man is going to learn to live in the world, he's going to have to overcome and/or compensate for his disability. That to me is part of the "emotionally healthy" criterion I included in my statement. I sympathize greatly with those who have to deal with conditions like that (I have a colleague at work with Asberger's who has dealt with it to the point he is a successful trial attorney), but it doesn't change my mind on this point.
Sheri
>>If that young man is going to learn to live in the world, he's going to have to overcome and/or compensate for his disability.<<
He won't ever overcome it. One can't just overcome Austism and Aspergers syndrome - the condition is for life. Yes, compensation is important, but in order for the individual to compensate, they need support from those who know how they should act in a world full of neurotypicals (NTs). And very often this support and direction comes from a partner.
However, my main point is that I disagree with the comments in this thread that state: *There is no such thing as a man who cannot ask out a woman if he's interested*. This is far too broad a statement to be true. Being that humans are such a diverse lot, there are going to be exceptions to this rule.
If posters were instead to agree that "a large majority of men can effectively persue a woman", I will hold my peace.
Perhaps I misspoke by using the word "overcome"...I know you can't overcome the entire condition but my understanding is that one learn to can overcome (or maybe "compensate for") certain effects. In any event, in order for him to have a good shot at a partner, he would have to learn compensation techniques from someone else, perhaps parents or counselors.
I understand what you're saying but I honestly don't think that there are many exceptions at all to the notion that a man who is interested, available and emotionally healthy will ask a woman out. That is why I always add the two qualifications to "interested"...to cover most if not all of the exceptions.
Sheri
Dear IV,
If you go back and read all the posts (I know it's grown to be very long by now), you'll see in almost every one of my original posts I said "not always, but usually" or "most of the time", or "the vast majority". People still weren't catching on so I think somewhere around the 16th post I posted the following to clear things up:
"1.) Let's define the word generalization. Straight from dictionary.com it says, " A principle, a statement, or an idea having general application."
Let's translate: A generalization = something that applies to many people, but not all. So yes, what I said does NOT apply to ALL. It applies to the majority."
I'm not a doctor of any kind (neither mental nor physical), nor do I have much experience with "austism" or any other mental condition/illness. Maybe it is something that he can learn to work around, maybe it isn't. I don't know, nor do I claim to be an authority on this. However, barring some rare 1:100 guys that have some condition, let's get real here and talk about the other 99.
I've said it about 100 times and so has northwestwanderer and others, "The vast majority of sane, healthy, interested men (99 out of 100 at least) will find someway, somehow to ask out the woman." Matter of fact I'm not sure it's only 99, maybe it's all 100. I just have a hard time agreeing that a guy wouldn't try somehow to make his feelings/intentions known to you by getting your number and asking you out...IF he was sane/interested etc...
So to be very blunt, I hope we can accept the fact that if the guy comes up to a woman and talks with her and it seems like there might be potential there, but then he doesn't ask for her number/email, I promise HE SIMPLY IS NOT INTERESTED IN HER. At the very least the jury is still out about if he wants to pursue something with you, and he may hope to run into you another time or something. Maybe he's a guy you run into regularly (work, school, or church, etc.), so he knows he can get to know you for a week or two before he has to ask you out. But even then, after a week or two if he hasn't asked you, as the title of that book says, "He's just not that into in you."
Please oh please, if you don't believe me go read that book. Look it up at amazon.com or something. It's called "He's just not that into you". It's a book written by a woman for women, and I think it's long overdue. Women (and men) need to know that if he doesn't get your number, call you up, ask you out, take you out, then take you out some more, HE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. It doesn't make anyone a bad person, it's just the cold hard reality of single life and dating. It doesn't mean he's better than you. It doesn't mean you don't deserve a great guy. It just means THAT GUY is not that into you. PERIOD. It's a fact, and I'm just trying to let people know about it, because too many people still don't get it, and it's causing a lot of unnecessary pain. Accept it and lets move on.
Now if there are women out there who want to ask out the guy to show equality, or even because it's your personality, or maybe you really like the guy, or for a myriad of other reasons I mostly don't agree with, go for it. I won't stop you, but I will respectfully disagree with you. The guy will ask you if he's interested (maybe not counting the 1:100 of course).
Now if you want to help him along a bit by sending out some clear hints and signals, that is actually appreciated. Don't throw yourself at him of course, but subtley let him know you are interested. If he doesn't get it (I will admit, some men are dense), then perhaps be a little more obvious. But if he still doesn't respond, sorry but you know what I think at that point... NOT INTERESTED. Maybe he's interested in your girlfriend, or maybe he's gay, or maybe he actually likes the conversation.
However, men DO want to know if women are interested. You've heard men exclaim in the past loud and clear to women, "We aren't mind readers!", which is a very true statement. We hate trying to guess your minds! Please don't do make us! :)
Communication and honesty is so very, very key here. However, if I go to a bar/club/party etc... and see a girl I find attractive, I'll walk up to her and chat for awhile. Then IF I like her style, personality, and yes also her looks, I will ask for her number, and I will actually call her. At least 99 out of 100 guys are the same way.
BTW, I'm just as in the dark as you women about guys who get your number but then don't call. I don't get it. If I like the girl I will get her number and call. If I don't I won't. Why go through the hastle of getting the number, then not calling. Maybe the guy is a player or maybe he had a bet with his buddy's. Either way, don't sweat guys who don't call you, they suck and don't deserve a date with you anyway. I will admit there are man who are jerks out there. So what's the big loss then? Too many men don't know how to treat a lady still, and too many women still don't know how to treat their man yet either. There are many who do treat each other right though, and those are the ones we have to find. But I digress...
-MFG
PS: I swear that every time I have a response to give, I think it'll just be 3 lines then I'm done, but then it ends up to be 3 pages! Sorry for so many words...
Pages