are we over-emphasizing "the rules"?

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-17-2004
are we over-emphasizing "the rules"?
16
Thu, 03-02-2006 - 3:40pm

Hi,

I've been following the board for a few months now and reading a lot of people's responses regarding phone calls, post-date etiquettes, etc. I have to say that I absolutely hate the rules, but mostly for the fact that we seem to have no choice but to follow them (for me, though, only to a certain extent as to not initiate contact but nothing like making-plans-by-wednesday-or-else). I see passiveness in our dating patterns and I start wondering why we have to put ourselves in such subordinate position and let the MEN dictate whether they want to see us again. It's true that we also have the right to reject them when they do call us, BUT it's they who get to decide whether to call us or not in the first place. It just seems wrong. Why can't we have more control of our lives? I've had some conversations with some male friends, and surprisingly, many of them say that they prefer aggressive women! The guy I am seeing now also told me that his best relationships were the ones where the women took initiatives because sometimes the fear of rejection influenced whether or not he wanted to pursue a woman. These guys all have some things in common: they're all well-established, self-contained, they're not worried that they cannot find a mate, they like confident women, and a woman not afraid of making her intentions known are attractive to them.

So I wanted to have an experiment: make some initiatives and see what happens. Yesterday seemed a perfect opportunity. I went out with a new guy for the first meet. It went very well - we stayed in the restaurant for almost 4 hours, until they kicked us out. Well, I think he tried to give me a goodnight kiss when he walked me to my car but I wasn't feeling ready yet so I turned my cheek. After I went home, I felt kind of bad and decided that it was time I broke the rule of waiting for guys to contact after the date, so I emailed him. I guess I didn't mind doing it because I got a pretty good vibe about the date, and was fairly confident that he'll contact me again (as he claimed). I didn't want to put him through that dread (after being rejected a kiss?) but I think even if that didn't happen, I'd still do it just to see what happens. He replied and said that he had a great time as well, and that he would like to see me again.

My point is, I sometimes feel sorry for the guys that they have to go through so much embarrasement of being rejected all through their lives (since high school or earlier). So why not show some enthusiasm and/or interest if you like the guy (and are pretty sure that they are interested as well). The rules need to be bent sometimes! :)

Jess

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iVillage Member
Registered: 02-25-2006
Thu, 03-02-2006 - 4:37pm
Just read this after I posted the "WOW" discussion. THANK YOU! I totally agree. Why can't we worry about being ourselves? Respectful, confident, intelligent, caring people that we are. I keep getting that feeling from this guy. He always returns my immediate attempts and I get a response when I take the initiative but ALL THE F....NG "Rules" and books say the guy must pursue and if he doesn't he's not into you...etc etc...!
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-18-2005
Thu, 03-02-2006 - 6:09pm

Here's one theory:


Most people (not all) picture lets say a celebrity a certain way (Paula ABdul talked about this on Dr Phil's Love Smart a few weeks ago)...they think of her a certain way and once they meet her and date her they realize she's very different, more emotional and sentimental - not the tough Diva they pictured hence they loose interest and leave.


I recently went out with a guy three times - waited three dates to kiss (and I had to stop the kissing not the other way around) - he was a fix up through a friend's friend and I never heard from him again.

 
 
Avatar for northwestwanderer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-02-2006 - 7:08pm

For me, at least, this has nothing to do with "rules"...it has to do with having learned over the years I've been dating that a guy who is interested in you, who is available for a relationship, and who is emotionally healthy, WILL contact you, period. If he's not calling, then he's not interested, not available, and/or not emotionally healthy. If I contact, he may respond to be polite or because he's bored or whatever, but I won't *know* if he's *really* interested unless I allow him to contact me.

I show plenty of enthusiasm and interest...if a guy *really* doesn't know that I'm interested, then he's either clueless or he's got self-esteem issues and that causes *me* to not be interested in *him*.

However, I do think in your case you could have projected a less than interested vibe by turning your cheek, so I probably would have sent a follow up email as well. It will be interesting to see if he does follow up.

I'm sure many men *do* like it just fine when they can be lazy and not do their part in the courtship process. As a guy friend of mine just said last week when I was complaining about my fling not contacting me enough, "guys know it's their job to initiate contact early in the dating process" (with the implication being that if he's not doing so, there's a reason for it...and I know in my case it's because he's not as interested in me as as I am in him, and he's not really available for a relationship).

Sheri

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-19-2004
Thu, 03-02-2006 - 8:24pm

I agree with Sheri.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 08-19-2004
Fri, 03-03-2006 - 11:06am
A lot of us have learned the hard way that men, even the ones who claim otherwise, prefer to be the ones in pursuit. Believe me, I don't want "The Rules" to be true, but based on my experience, in general they are. When I think of how I used to pursue guys years ago, I just cringe. I also find it liberating not to pursue, and to figure if he doesn't call, he's not interested and just move on. I also find it very helpful to assume that every call, date or other contact is the last time I'll hear from him (got that one from Sheri :) - makes it much easier not to obsess over one particular guy.
iVillage Member
Registered: 06-16-2003
Fri, 03-03-2006 - 11:20am

On an intellectual level I agree with the OP because I hate being passive and dislike the idea of playing the dating game. However, I also have learned over the years that men and women DO think differently and HAVE been socialized differently, no matter what we wish were true.

I have never asked out a man and had it turn out well. If he didn't ask me out himself there are three possiblities:

1. He was going to but I beat him to it. Threw off his timing and made him kind of defensive, or unsettled, or otherwise uncomfortable.

2. He liked me but was not confident enough to ask me out. Big problem -- I am a very assertive, independent woman, and right off the bat this means he will not be a "match" for my strong personality. I need a confident man. I was the one who first asked out my husband. I spent the next 14 years making all the decisions for us, and while we really loved each other, he resented the hell out of it.

3. He wasn't planning to ask me. Obvious issue here. So if he says yes, he was being polite or his heart wasn't in it. Can you say train wreck?

It is just human nature to be drawn to what is somewhat elusive. That is a fact of psychology. If you don't believe me, next time you're sitting across from someone, lean back a little. Nine times out of ten, they will unconsciously lean forward.

If a man is attracted to you and wants to date you, he will ask you. It's that simple.

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-17-2004
Fri, 03-03-2006 - 11:38am

I admit that I may have some issues that I should deal with first. :) I usually fall for guys who do not appear too eager in the beginning (in retrospect, some of them were just not very interested, and the others liked to take it slow). For some reason, usually if a guy shows too much interest, then I get turned off after a while - but this type of guys, at least in my case, tend to be the ones who are not as "qualified" or confident as the others. So yes, I have the tendency to be attracted to confident guys, who, in turn are hard-to-get and also don't have relationship as their first priority!

I didn't mean that we should pursue the guy. I agree that it might scare away or turn off many guys. But by playing hard-to-get, are we inadvertently blocking out guys who might need a little encouragement? For me, I've neglected many guys whom I was interested in because I was busy with work, traveling, etc. And if I don't reply emails within a few days, I'll most likely forget about them forever, until they shoot me a reminder or if I run into the email by accident - in which case I'll either reply and apologize for my late reply, or too much time had passed and I just didn't feel like replying anymore. Am I just not that into them? Not necessarily. My view is that for OLD, it's difficult to make someone your priority even if you find him interesting - partly because it's good to have the no-expectation policy, and partly because you don't really know that person well enough that you want to make him a priority. And I believe the same applies to guys as well.

Jess

Avatar for northwestwanderer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 03-03-2006 - 11:49am

I can only speak for myself, but I don't think anyone is advocating playing hard to get...what we are advocating is letting the guy initiate contact and dates so you know he's interested. That's completely different from playing hard to get, IMO.
When a guy I'm interested in does so, I always respond enthusiastically and on a timely basis, so that he knows I'm interested, and if I'm not available the night he asks me to go out, I give him a couple of alternatives so he knows I'm not blowing him off.

Sheri

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-17-2002
Fri, 03-03-2006 - 12:44pm

Exactly - "the rules" do definitely advocate playing hard to get which fundamentally, I do disagree with. Like their whole thing of if a guy calls past Wednesday, you should turn him down. To me, that's hooey. If I don't have anything else going on and a guy calls me on a Thursday or Friday and it's between that or sitting home alone with the cat, I'll go!

However, letting the man initiate and pursue is not playing hard to get nor is it in a sense being "passive". It is letting the natural way of relationships take its course. I agree with carrie when she says that these guys that claim they want an agressive woman? They really don't. If they had a woman chasing after them all the time, they would hate it and/or get lazy in the relationship and probably be miserable. Men have an inate need to pursue. So while they might like it if a woman initiates SOME things, most things I have read have said that guys really are turned off by a woman that is to agressive no matter what they might say to us.

131.gif image by y_baros th5K.gif image by jade_simo

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-14-2003
Fri, 03-03-2006 - 12:55pm

If you like a guy and want to go out with him you have three choices:

1) Give him your phone number, tell him you like him and then wait patiently by the phone and see whether he will call you. I would suspect you have a one in three chance with this method that you will get a call, maybe less.

2) Do nothing. Hopefully ESP will convey your desires and you can hope, pray, dream that Mr. Hot will ask you out on a date. You have a 1 chance in a billion but sometimes, like the lottery, it works.

3) Make the phone call. Coffee? Lunch? Bowling? Horseback riding? Mr. Hot might be put off, but, then again, Mr. Hot might want to go horseback riding with you. Chances of you getting Mr. Hot's attention and know whether he wants to get to know you or not: 100%.

I've never been one for dreaming and praying when the phone is easy to use. This 44 year old says throw your silly books away. I'd rather ask 3 guys out for coffee and risk rejection rather than wait around for one guy to ask me out on date.

The older you get the happier the guy is that you took the initiative.

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