are we over-emphasizing "the rules"?
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| Thu, 03-02-2006 - 3:40pm |
Hi,
I've been following the board for a few months now and reading a lot of people's responses regarding phone calls, post-date etiquettes, etc. I have to say that I absolutely hate the rules, but mostly for the fact that we seem to have no choice but to follow them (for me, though, only to a certain extent as to not initiate contact but nothing like making-plans-by-wednesday-or-else). I see passiveness in our dating patterns and I start wondering why we have to put ourselves in such subordinate position and let the MEN dictate whether they want to see us again. It's true that we also have the right to reject them when they do call us, BUT it's they who get to decide whether to call us or not in the first place. It just seems wrong. Why can't we have more control of our lives? I've had some conversations with some male friends, and surprisingly, many of them say that they prefer aggressive women! The guy I am seeing now also told me that his best relationships were the ones where the women took initiatives because sometimes the fear of rejection influenced whether or not he wanted to pursue a woman. These guys all have some things in common: they're all well-established, self-contained, they're not worried that they cannot find a mate, they like confident women, and a woman not afraid of making her intentions known are attractive to them.
So I wanted to have an experiment: make some initiatives and see what happens. Yesterday seemed a perfect opportunity. I went out with a new guy for the first meet. It went very well - we stayed in the restaurant for almost 4 hours, until they kicked us out. Well, I think he tried to give me a goodnight kiss when he walked me to my car but I wasn't feeling ready yet so I turned my cheek. After I went home, I felt kind of bad and decided that it was time I broke the rule of waiting for guys to contact after the date, so I emailed him. I guess I didn't mind doing it because I got a pretty good vibe about the date, and was fairly confident that he'll contact me again (as he claimed). I didn't want to put him through that dread (after being rejected a kiss?) but I think even if that didn't happen, I'd still do it just to see what happens. He replied and said that he had a great time as well, and that he would like to see me again.
My point is, I sometimes feel sorry for the guys that they have to go through so much embarrasement of being rejected all through their lives (since high school or earlier). So why not show some enthusiasm and/or interest if you like the guy (and are pretty sure that they are interested as well). The rules need to be bent sometimes! :)
Jess

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I think I was going off topic again. LOL. I was mixing my reactions to many other posts on this board, I suppose. Ok, so we were talking about making initiatives...
In my original post, I was talking about mostly letting a guy know that you had a good time with him after the first date, rather than waiting for him to call/email again. Society has placed a lot of burden on guys in that aspect. But, I only advocate it IF there is mutual interest, based on the vibes we get from the date. Perhaps my motivation is not such a wise one for my best interest, but I feel that if I am interested in or care about a guy, I would want to free him from that burden and make him feel good about himself (most guys feel flattered if they are interested in the girl).
On a separate but related note (it relates to assuming a guy is not interested if he hasn't done the proper pursuing), I cannot speak for all guys, but I know many whose schedule/work do not really allow them to spend too much energy/time on dating. Actually I would say that I am also one of those people who, though so eagerly want to find that special someone, but just cannot invest too much of my time into it. I am in academia, and during the months where deadlines have to be met (publications, grant proposals, etc), I find it very difficult to place a high priority on dating. I see my guy friends passing over potential good dates for that reason. It's not that they are not interested, but once they get busy on something else, the woman in picture sort of just fades away - now I am talking about either someone they haven't met or only gone out with once that haven't yet had a chance to leave a strong impression on them. For them I think women who are more aggressive would be of better match. It's not exactly that we cannot allocate 2 hours to have a dinner with someone. But for me it's mostly a mental thing. If I am stressed over work, then I tend to put everything else on hold. My next date is scheduled two weeks away because of an upcoming deadline, and I haven't replied to as many emails as I'd like to. Some might interpret that as in I am not that interested - I would say it's both right and wrong. If I have known the person better, then I would probably try to fit him into my schedule, but for someone whom I've never met, or have gone out with only once or twice, then that'd be a little bit difficult. The dinner I had couple nights ago - I didn't expect it to be 4 hours long initially but as much as I am interested in the guy, I also cannot make another date until 2 weeks later. So it seems that I am going off topic again here. My point is that I see from my own experience what guys in similar situation might be going through, so I tend to be more forgiving if they haven't communicated as often as one would expect (provided a good excuse is given). I am sure there are many other professions that are like this (i.e. not regular 9-to-5 jobs), not to mention people with kids. And since I tend to forget about correspondences quite often, I would assume that some guys do too, and I don't take it personal as they're not interested or anything. Of course, if I don't get an enthusiastic reply after my "reminder" email then I'll get the message. Does this make sense or do I sound like I am from another planet? :-D
I completely agree with you on that one - whether or not I can work up the courage to ask a guy out is a different story. :)
When I was younger, I dreamt of a fairy-tale kind of relationship, where a guy would do anything to pursue the girl of his dreams. But as I get older, I realize that it's not reality (as pointed out by my guy friends...) Adult relationships are so much different, and I think it's all about communicating and letting each other know what one's heart desires. Relationships are difficult enough without adding all that perceived societal constraint to them. I remember reading an article on Match, advising women to NOT give out phone numbers to guys. In the article, the woman asked the guy for his phone number instead, and the guy says "but usually when a woman asks for a guy's phone number, she never calls" and she said something like "by having your phone number, I have the right to decide whether I want to call you or not, rather than waiting for you to call me" Excellent reply, IMO.
Re point 1, I let him know I'm interested while we are ON the date (by a combination of words, actions and demeanor, depending on the circumstances of each date), so there's no need for me to follow up...as I said before, if a guy really doesn't know I'm interested, he's either clueless or way too insecure. Besides, if a guy was really interested and *didn't* follow up because he wasn't sure about my interest, we wouldn't be a good fit...I want someone who is willing to take a small risk to get what he wants (I mean, really, how hard is it to send an email saying "I really enjoyed meeting you, would you like to go out again", if he's too afraid to ask while you're on the date, or call?).
Re point 2, that's what the guy I'm involved with right now is like, and it's making me lose interest FAST. I'm a very busy person also, but if I'm interested in someone (whether pre or post meeting in person), I *make* the time to respond to them, or if for some reason I can't, I follow up when I can and I apologize for not responding sooner. I do this because finding someone to be in a relationship with is a priority to me, and I want someone who will also make it a priority.
I don't think either approach is right or wrong, necessarily...it's what is right for each individual. I want a man who shows his interest even if he is afraid he'll be rejected, and who is willing to make finding/starting a relationship one of his priorities.
Sheri
Sure, I understand your point on wanting to find someone who sees eye-to-eye with you and also makes relationship his #1 priority. After my last relationship (5 years), in retrospect, I realized that I loved him in my ways, and he loved me in his own ways - but we did love each other dearly. It was difficult and at times I told myself that I wouldn't want to be in that situation again. But I think if I meet the right guy (now some might say he is not "right" if we have different dating perspectives but that's left for another debate...) I would probably do the same thing again. :) I do believe that, in time, and in certain cases, one can be "made" into Mr. Perfect (as was the case with my ex... except that my patience ran out the same moment he declared his commitment to me). Relationships are about making compromises, but to what extent should one compromise? That's a hard question. So that's why I try not to put the societal expectations on guys and not dismiss them so quickly.
As to whether women should make initiatives, I had an almost perfect relationship with my first bf (also 5 years) and I initiated and asked him out that time (probably the only person I've done that to). He was very flattered. At that time I knew nothing about dating and the rules so I'd call and ask him out whenever I felt like it. It worked out well though. I somehow just knew that he was into me, although he was pacing himself more appropriately. LOL. I haven't had a lot of experiences in dating (mostly long-term relationships), but I'd have to say that my best relationship was the one that I initiated. It's hard to say.
Edited 3/3/2006 3:15 pm ET by jjjj2004
There are some who simply believe that a woman should never ask a guy out, and I will never go along with that "rule". I can't say that I ever had the best luck with asking men out, but I did try, and I did date some men I initiated contact with at the risk of my comfort zone level. I think it is fine to show your interest and even ask a guy out, but then I do believe the ball is in his court after that. Even if you convince yourself that he is shy or afraid of rejection, I think it is up to him to ask the 2nd time. But, overall, I see nothing wrong with women showing that they are interested to begin with.
Maybe some women can sit back and just wait for men to call them, but I was never one of those. I do believe you need to make some effort, but finding the fine line between effort and actually looking desperate has been hard for me to figure out. I never wanted to look desperate for a date, but in reality, I was lonely and had a hard time figuring out how other women met men who were eligible and interested in them. I finally got to the point where I would only exert a certain amount of effort and then if things didn't work out, then the guy was not interested, but that was a hard pill to swallow with that realization. As I said on another thread, it really is a numbers game. Another poster also said that if you go out with enough men, eventually you will meet the one you are supposed to be with. With each date you go on, even if it doesn't pan out, you are closer to meeting the right one later. I think there is truth to that theory. It is all about surviving the tough times in between and hoping that the next guy you meet might be the one you have been waiting for all along.
I don't really follow any steadfast rules I do whatever feels right at the time with the particular person.
Changes with the guy, with the time, with the wind, with my cycle, with the mood, with the moon...
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