Male/Female Dynamics
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| Sun, 06-18-2006 - 8:36pm |
My counselor sent me this response to my question about men whether men need to chase or not. I thought was good so I'm sharing it with you here:
Regarding male/female relationships, I will give you Alan’s perspective. The male ego is much more complex than many would like to portray it. To chase or be chased – I would highly recommend the book, “Love must be tough,” by Dr. James Dobson. In fact, I wish a class would be taught to every High School Freshman using this book. There would be much less trauma associated with dating, and far fewer divorces if everyone understood the dynamics Dr. Dobson elucidates. Not only does it describe interaction in plain-language, it does an exceptional job of explaining the importance of defining and setting boundaries prior to engaging in a relationship. Far too often, I have seen the violation of boundary issues adversely affect relationships.
In essence, one may think of two individuals as a balancing act, trying to maintain a certain distance between themselves. If one advances, the other will retreat. If one advances too quickly, capturing the other, a state of fear/panic will exist, destroying the counterbalance (commonly referred to as “the clinging vine syndrome”). Realizing this, if the one advancing stops and slowly retreats slightly, the other individual will feel a sense of freedom to advance. This dance will gradually decrease in distance until the two meet. Donna and I were older when we met and we met after her husband had died and I had already experienced a divorce. We began as friends, without any expectation of an intimate relationship. Thus, as with friends, there was no chase. Rather, we first became comfortable in our roles as friends, which gradually evolved into more. If you analyze this in context of Dobson, we permitted each other a sense of freedom without expectation.
My personal advice – be comfortable with yourself first. Don’t obsess about being in a relationship for the sake of being two. Far too often our society reinforces the need for pairs. Secondly, establish your boundaries and adhere to them. Under no circumstances become a doormat – you will not respect yourself and neither will they! It will greatly undermine your relationship from the onset.
Take time to build your self-perception and confidence. Develop and nurture friendships. In other words, assess your wants, needs, and desires and assess how to achieve those objectives. Explore life with out expectations. You will find your soul mate. When you meet them, ask yourself not “Is this the one I can live with?” Rather, ask, “Is this the one I can’t live without?” This will save you a lot of heartache and regrets. Life is not simple; life is hard. Make each day a learning experience.
I hope people here find this as helpful as I did.

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I am sure there is a lot of truth to what you write and truth in what Dr. Dobson writes. I am somewhat familiar with him. Many at the church I used to attend seemed to think a lot of the books he wrote. I have seen him interviewed before.
What I have a problem with is this "dance" that you talk about. It seems to translate into game-playing for many of us. I have met a number of men now in these last almost 7 years of being single. Many will talk a good line about not wanting games, about knowing what they want, and wanting someone who also knows what they want. Once you decide someone meets your list of top criteria for a relationship, you would think it would be pretty easy after that, right? Well, I have found that does not seem to have anymore leverage as far as developing a healthy relationship than some of the ones that seem problematic from the start.
I think it is wrong to do this "dance" or cat and mouse game that might be for juveniles--not for people in their 30's, 40's and beyond. I don't think women should have to play hard to get nor do I believe men should either. I do believe that each person should have a certain amount of their own space, their own independence. No one wants to be smothered, but in the end, it is hurtful and selfish to lead someone on if you don't know what the hell you want. That is the same scenario that is played over and over and over again on these boards. You can be upfront and get some of the obvious obstacles out of the way in the beginning, but that is no guarantee that a man (or a woman) will honor your wishes or do what they say they will later. It seems a lot of people's word means nothing nowadays. I was raised to believe it was important to keep your word and do what you say you will do and not be continually waffling about things in general. I believe Dr. Dobson would also agree on that important attribute.
But how many posts have we read about the man who simply does not call when he says he will or leaves the woman hanging? If a man does not want to be alone in life later, then it means making those phone calls and making the effort to establish a relationship. Same goes for a woman. I used to believe that by the time people reached their 40's they should be past the game-playing, the waffling, and the uncertainty of what they want in life and in a partner. I have learned that there is no magical age for maturity or dependability to kick in. Many can talk a good line in the beginning, but having the tenacity of sticking with someone long enough to actually see if they might be long-term relationship material is the thing here. Many on these dating sites should not be there to begin with. When I read some of the profiles, it seems like false advertising after you've gotten to know the guy. I'm sure there are some women like this as well.
Anyway, that is my take about the dynamics of male/female. There should be a better way of getting to know someone other than the "dance" of game playing. I think many on this board would agree.
I disagree that it's game playing. Uncertainty about picking a new partner is part of human nature, no matter what your age. I can be as certain as I want to be about what characteristics I want in a partner, but if a new guy comes on too strong, I'm going to retreat before I find out whether he's got those characteristics...it's a natural reaction, and it's going to create uncertainty. If the person is potentially right for me, he'll moderate his approach so I can feel comfortable rather than overwhelmed (this happened to me recently and we are now seeing each other again). I wasn't "playing games"--I really was overwhelmed and uncertain about whether I really wanted a man who came on that strong (even though he has other qualities I *do* really want), and that uncertainty also heightened my anxiety about some other qualities of his I'm unsure about. I'm still unsure about those things, but because the pressure is off, I can take my time and date him and see if they can be worked out.
As for the not calling thing...time will tell whether it's a one time uncertainty thing or a habit for that particular guy (in which case you can decide if you can tolerate it, or not). If you've been dating for a while and things are starting to get serious, it's human nature to wonder, "hmm, do I *really* want to be with this person?" That can translate into a couple days (or more) of pulling back, but then the person will decide, "yes, I do want to be with this person", so they will start calling again like normal. A great book to read on this topic is "A Fine Romance" by Judith Sills (she calls this "the switch"--where the person who has been pursuing realizes they "have" the other person and they all of a sudden become unsure they *want* that person).
Sheri
Yes, now the first part of your paragraph, I can see about a guy coming on too strong. I guess that was not what I was envisioning with the waffling issue. And I don't think a woman is playing games if she tells a guy to back off a bit--maybe not in those words. There is such a fine line with all of this, and all I can go on is my own experiences and those close to me who have shared their stories with me as well.
Now that last part of your last paragraph is what really stands out in my mind. Maybe I'm unique in this, but I usually know fairly early on if I am truly interested in a guy and know if I want it to be long-term. If the guy has treated me well, I'm attracted to him, and there seem to be no major problems otherwise (and he feels the same way), then the retreating part is a bit hard for me to totally justify. I guess if we were talking about marriage and you were entertaining doubts, then I think anyone would have to know in their heart if this is the person they want or not. But, until it gets to that point, I think it's unfair to either person if the other one starts calling less or not returning phone calls for no apparent reason. That is when it starts looking like game-playing.
I think internet dating has also done something detrimental to the mindset of many people. Remember that old phrase "there are more fish in the sea"? I guess I have always taken that with a grain of salt. When someone usually says it to you, you are usually hurting from a failed relationship. It's hard to believe that there would ever be anyone else sometimes. However, I can also see how the internet has made many think that people are disposable. Perhaps they don't try as hard with whoever they're with simply because they know there are more "fish" on some other dating site. I'm not saying all men or all women think that way, but I do think that is somewhat of the mindset of many people who use an online dating service. I think many people are looking for Mr. or Ms. "perfect" when no such creature exists.
I did learn from my last relationship that nothing is actually perfect with anyone and to think that the perfect partner is out there is not only delusional, it also sets people up for disappointment. I'm not saying to settle; I'm saying reality is that there is not always someone better down the road. Or if there is someone better, you might have to wait another 5 years or so. There is no guarantee, but I'm amazed at the number of men who seem to love the chase but when they know they have the girl, they start backing off & /or they start taking the woman for granted. I must admit that that is very confusing for me but I've seen that scenario played out in my own relationships as well as in others' relationships.
Having a few days to a week or two of uncertainty at the point between dating and commitment is what I'm talking about (and I believe the original post was talking about that too). Not everyone shows the uncertainty by calling less or whatever, but many do (especially men). I was able to express my doubts/uncertainty to my guy verbally, but not everyone is comfortable doing that--I am willing to give some grace if it's just a brief aberration. If you take that brief period of uncertainty personally and overreact, that can have the effect of reinforcing the person's doubts about committing. So all I'm saying is that if it happens briefly, don't overreact and assume that the guy is a jerk or playing games. He *might* be, but only time will tell...he might just be experiencing a bit of uncertainty, and if you let him be, he'll get over it and go back to how things were (or even MORE contact than before). That's a different scenario from the one you are talking about in your last paragraph--but the person on the receiving end of the behavior won't know which it is unless she lets a short amount of time pass (two weeks, max) and sees what happens without pushing. If nothing changes (the guy continues to not call as much, etc), then it's probably not the uncertainty I'm talking about manifesting itself--the guy has either lost interest, or he's showing his true colors and the woman has to decide whether she can accept him as is, or not.
And yes, if you don't have at least a few doubts while you're being pursued before you say, "ok, I'm in, let's date exclusively", then I would say that's a little unusual.
Sheri
I asked my counselor about these things because I think he's a decent man and wanted to get a decent man's perspective. I agree with parts of what everyone has said. It is o.k. to give someone else their space, but there are guys who are in it strictly for the chase it seems, too. I guess that's where we need to learn to be good judges of character. The truth is, half the guys that I've pursued I didn't really think much of. A part of me was hoping they were what I wanted or could be, but the bigger part believed they never would. I think probably a lot of us do that, though I can't speak for anyone else. I think many times men can feel these things and pre-emptively drop someone to keep from getting dropped themselves. Sometimes I've pursued them to make-up for what I thought was a snap judgment on my part, but it didn't turn-out well.
However, when someone doesn't seem very interested, why do we care? I've asked myself that question and the answer was complicated. Why do I want one guy to fit when there are lots of other potentially better matches? I finally realized that for me it was feelings I was avoiding about people in the past and past relationships. I just think a lot of us would experience less grief if when someone seemed to lose interest or seemed like a jerk, usually they seem like both to me, if we could just chalk it up to them and/or that we're just not a fit. I don't like the way a lot of guys behave either, but many times in the beginning they probably thought we might be what they wanted. What I'm getting at is that many people act their best if they think there's something they want. This is going to happen whether we end-up in a relationship or not. So if they're acting badly before we're even in a relationship with them, why should we stress about getting into one with them? It's not about us, it's about them, who they choose to be. Dating is difficult because it is personal, but the key, I think, is to only let a select few through to one's heart and emotions.
Edited 6/19/2006 7:26 pm ET by golightly2004
Edited 6/19/2006 7:31 pm ET by golightly2004
"So if they're acting badly before we're even in a relationship with them, why should we stress about getting into one with them? It's not about us, it's about them, who they choose to be."
I think it goes back to many women thinking that if we had said or done something differently, then they would still want to be with us. Oftentimes, the men don't know what the hell they want (in women or in life in general). Again, I think the internet dating scene sometimes creates a distorted reality that there will ALWAYS be someone better later. Thus, men don't want to invest much time or effort on any given woman because there "might" be someone more suited for them down the road. I'm not saying I think anyone should settle for just whoever is available, but it seems like some men are not willing to make the effort to even get to know a woman before they get bored and "bail" on them.
I believe in the Dr. Phil saying about having "dealbreakers". I think you need to allow for differences in people and be upfront with what is a dealbreaker or not. That only works though, if the other person is honest with you as well. Men can talk a good line to get you to think they are prince charming, but chances are good that they are actually using false advertising to get you into bed or get you to believe they are something they are not. A genuine, caring guy who is not into game-playing is hard to find. And it's even easier to write a wonderful profile touting all your wants, dreams, good qualities, etc. It's quite another to present that actual person to someone else in the flesh and stay the course long enough to let it mature to a relationship. Many men don't have the gumption to work at it much--or at least that has been my experience with a lot of the online dates I've had. It is apparently too easy for them to start over with someone else and continue their lines and game-playing rather than "being real" as Dr. Phil says and being a stand-up type of guy when it comes to women. They don't want to invest anymore than they have to. I've seen way too many cowards and frauds thus far. I'm sure there are some good guys online--I just keep meeting the wrong ones. :0
You make very valid points. I was just thinking today that the times men have seemed to be thrilled with me was when I was enthralled with them, which is becoming less and less the older I get. I think that with OLD a lot of people are looking for that instant flame. You can get a man to do a lot of STUPID things when caught-up in a rush of emotion, but not so much when you appeal to their reason and judgment. It IS really hard to find a man who will stay the course and develop a lasting and meaningful relationship. So I completely agree with you. My opinion of the vast majority on OLD is that they're not emotionally healthy nor are they looking to become so. When they meet someone, they're looking for those they can bask in a "narcissistic glow" with, not reality. Once that is all over, they're generally on the move again.
I don't think this contradicts what my counselor said though. Although it is really hard to distinguish the player, etc., from the sincere man. That's why I think if we give it time rather than build expectations, we'll be a lot happier in the long term. I'm often guilty of this and I'm trying to change. It's getting short-circuited now, though, because I no longer play the role of the awestruck female. They have to prove themselves to me, and most just move-on. I expect to have to prove myself to them, also. So it's fair.
"My opinion of the vast majority on OLD is that they're not emotionally healthy nor are they looking to become so."
In a nutshell, I think you have covered almost all the bases when it comes to online dating problems.
When I met Mark, I believed I had found a guy finally, who was not into games, was decent, hard-working and family oriented. He fit the bill in so many ways of what I wanted and needed in a relationship. The first problem with him was something I should have been more on guard for. He was separated, but the final papers were not done for his divorce. I made clear that I didn't date "married men". He assured me he would be in the next month or so. In the meantime, we start dating (even though I didn't like the fact that he wasn't legally single yet). He was very much a decent man, caring, loving and treated me well; liked my family. I felt like I had met the guy I would be with for a long time, possibly even thinking marriage down the road. Anyway, during our courtship, he finds out that he is diabetic. This throws him for a loop and he does not deal with this news well at all. He shows signs of denial, anger, and resentment at this health crises. I have other friends who are diabetic and while it is not good news, it is not a death sentence. He refused to exercise or really try to lose weight (which they told him if he lost weight, he might not even be diabetic). I quit talking about walking or doing any exercise stuff together. He wasn't interested. He was tired a lot and that affected the relationship. But about the time we were dealing with all this and things were actually getting better, wife #1 (Mom of his daughter) decides she wants custody of the daughter. He had legal custody of her with his sister helping take care of the child when he was gone for work. Of course the divorce gets put on the back burner at this time because he needs to use the $ to fight the custody deal.
That last crises was the blow that caused him to short-circuit big time. He became even more depressed and finally made some really foolish decisions which I believe totally center around the custody issues. He decided that it looked better to the "court" to go back to his 2nd wife (who by the way didn't treat his daughter well at all) and make it look like they were a family unit in order for her real Mom to have a smaller chance of getting the daughter back. Forget the fact that he supposedly had no love left for this woman or that she was emotionally and sometimes physically abusive to the daughter (her step-daughter). It was a huge mess, and he didn't even have the balls to be upfront with me about what he was doing or why.
I still care about him, but the reality is that his life is quite messed up and he is emotionally messed up as well. I don't think this sham of a marriage will last, but I am not going to sit around waiting for him to get his head out of his butt. The person hurt the worst in this scenario is his daughter. She doesn't deserve to have to live with a step-mom from hell.
My first bit of advice to online daters...make SURE they are divorced first. :0
What a terrible situation! I agree that many men are just looking for "things to happen to them." They think that if it's the right one they won't have to work at it or anything. They just float through life letting things "happen" to them. However, I think we have a lot more control over our destinies than many want to admit.
This Mark guy sounds like he lacks a backbone. As far as with the courts, I think he's deluded and/or it was an excuse. He sounds like he thinks he has no control over his life, and refuses to take responsibility for it. Too bad for his daughter, especially.
I had a Mark like that. He was my counselor, exploiting his female patients, employees, etc., and resenting his wife's selfishness and dominance, although he didn't mind her 3-digit income. So he took his frustrations out by controlling us, making him feel like a "man" again. I was vulnerable for a lot of reasons at the time. Emotionally healthy people are hard to find in any walk of life. It's unfortunate. I can see how you thought your Mark might have been what you wanted. What I've found is that men can be incredibly generous when they want something and there's no real commitment involved on their parts. For some reason, many people today just don't want to be nailed down on anything and resent other's expectations. It's called adulthood, hello. There's not much we can do about it, however, except learn to identify them earlier and avoid them as much as possible.
I hope you find a man worthy of you. I've said it before, but I really like the book "Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix. Sheri said he's got one out on dating as well. I want to look into that. We can be the right person all we want, but unless the other is on the same page, it's unlikely to work out.
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