Can't women be loyal TO EACH OTHER?

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Registered: 06-19-2003
Can't women be loyal TO EACH OTHER?
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Wed, 11-05-2003 - 4:35pm
I just know I'm gonna get slammed for asking this, but I've just gotta ask: is it possible that women cannot be loyal to each other where men are concerned?

I only ask b/c I've seen posts where women ask if it's OK if they date a friend's XBF, or someone that she (the friend) may be sweet on, not to mention to eternal "affair w/a married man." Are we as women so desperate for men that we don't care who gets hurt if we "poach" on another woman's territory?

I'm not making a "blanket statement" about the integrity of women in general; I know that men also do their share of "poaching." In fact, what helped destroy my own marriage was XH's "alliance" w/one of my own sisters, and I just couldn't live w/that disloyalty.

But I just had to ask b/c it's something I see so often...

Ash

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Avatar for northwestwanderer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 11-05-2003 - 4:50pm

I am totally loyal to my friends and would not even CONSIDER dating a guy under the scenario posted below, without at least talking to my friend FIRST.

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-12-2003
Wed, 11-05-2003 - 5:32pm
Sheri, I couldn't have possibly worded that any better myself!

Michelle

Michelle

Fill with mingled cream and amber,
I will drain that glass again.
Such hilarious vis

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-07-2003
Wed, 11-05-2003 - 6:01pm
Hi Ash,

What a timely question! I just found out yesterday that a friend of mine is now dating someone I went out w/once - who she set me up with! Anyways, to answer your question - I think it depends on the person. Some women would never "poach," while others do it all the time. I tend to think that the more insecure a woman is the more likely she will do it.

Anyway, if you don't mind, I'd love anyone's feedback on my situation. Here's what happened - this summer, S (my friend) had a bf and set me up w/one of his friends, R. Both S & R live in the same area, about 2 hours away from me. Anyways, R and I went to dinner w/a group while I was in their town, and hit it off, so he asked for my # and called me a few days later. He came to my town a weekend or two later, we went for an all-day date (brunch, museums & dinner) - and then I never heard from him again. A month or two later, S called to tell me she had just broken up w/her bf - and also asked what happened w/R, so I told her the story. At the time I thought she seemed *very* interested in what had transpired btw R & I and it occurred to me that she might be thinking of making a move on him, but our conversation got cut short (I had to be somewhere) so I didn't get to ask her and after that we played phone tag and never got in touch.

Yesterday she hesitantly told me that she & R have been together for 2 months - i.e., since exactly the time she called me to find out what had happened btw us!

I don't mind one bit that she is seeing R - in fact, I'm happy for her, they're probably a better match and they live in the same town, always a bonus. But I also do think it's a little weird that she didn't come right out and tell me two months ago that she was going to date him. I almost wonder if I should put less trust in her b/c of this. We aren't the closest of friends - I haven't known her that long, and b/c we don't live in the same area we don't see each other much. And I guess what bothers me is that I somehow get the sense that it is not out of character for her do something like this.

Am I over-reacting?

ginger


iVillage Member
Registered: 10-08-2003
Wed, 11-05-2003 - 6:26pm
My very best gf and I are always laughing that we have completely different taste in men. I am the jock and she is more girly. So I tend to go after the sporty guys and she tends to go for more of the intellectual. So I when she tries to introduce me to someone she thinks is great I always tell her to see if she really likes him first, and if she does he probably isn't for me.

But to answer the question, I have never nor will I ever go after my friends interest. Wether they dated or she just was interested in him. That is stepping on toes and I think that would cause more animosity (sp?) then its worth. My friends are my world and they mean just about as much to me as my family.

Lilypie First Birthday tickers
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Registered: 04-25-2003
Wed, 11-05-2003 - 6:34pm
It is possible, but in my experience it isn't as common as you think.

:) Then again my acquaintances and friends could just be freaky.

I do have one friend who seems to embody all the negative stereotype of the "poacher". She doesn't care who she goes after, or who she hurts by doing this. Worst of all she seems to be in an subconcious race with me that I've never understood. It's like she has to prove that she is more desired than I and that men want her. If she sees me talking to a guy who I have professed interest in she makes a point of wandering over and "upping me". In other words if I'm carrying on a witty banter with the fella then she ends up turning the conversation to sex and become very physical until I'm uncomfortable enough to leave. I feel bad for her, but after so many years it has finally just rubbed my nerves raw and I've ended the friendship.

Avatar for cl_shywon
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Registered: 03-20-2003
Wed, 11-05-2003 - 6:43pm

I don't think that her dating him would bother me, but the fact that she didn't say anything would.

Avatar for cl_shywon
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-20-2003
Wed, 11-05-2003 - 6:51pm

And I'm probably gonna get slammed for responding how I do!


I trust very few women with my emotions.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 11-05-2003 - 8:52pm
Dear Lord, men aren't property with deeds on them to be bought and sold at auction and recorded in the courthouse.

Married men - off limits. It's his commitment to her and his willingness to dismiss it that ought to have a woman running the other way. Same with a man regarding a married woman.

That said, often the one "with a married person" (usually men in this scenario) are not after more than sex...and the woman lack self-awareness and discernment that she can't tell the difference between respect and admiration for her...and the deire for hot sex with no obligation. She wants attention and affection thinking it means respect...and he gives her what she wants because it gets him what he wants. It's immoral....it's technically "illegal" in some states.....but it happens all the time.

People do what they want to do which is what their values justify them to do and have them desiring to do. Bottom line.

It's not the offer that determines if someone "violates the deed" - it's the values of the person involved.

That said....if you're a person out there with a crush, a longing, an at a distance infatuation...and the person you're so desirious of being with has NO desire for you whatever in any capacity and has made that known simply by NOT PURSUING A DATE....PARTICULARLY IF YOU'VE BEEN SELF-AWARE AND SELF-RESPONSIBLE ENOUGH TO LET THEM KNOW IF THEY WOULD ASK....YOU'D SO WILLINGLY GO......why is it "encroaching on your territory" to have someone you know go out with them, ask them out?

Do you know the "limits" that would put on potential relationships if it was adhered to as God forbid - a rule!It would mean that if Ash liked Johnny and Johnny liked Erin...Erin wouldn't even consider dating Johnny if he asked her out and wouldn't dare tell him outright she finds him appealing and would like to pursue more.

Why...Johnny's single, Ash is single, Erin's single.....Ash may want Johnny but his lack of reprocicity for that situation is calling it "game over on account of rain". Why shouldn't Erin and Johnny go out - if that is mutually desired.

Other scenario...Erin dated Johnny and they broke up, she wasn't thrilled being as she was the dumpee. Johnny who did the dumping was emotionally removed when he did it obviously, two weeks later asks Ash out. Ash and Erin are friends, Ash knows Erin and Johnny used to be an item and taht Johnny called it off and Erin wasn't thrilled....so Ash who's got a crush on Johnny is automatically supposed to rebuff his offer for dinner and a movie? I think that is about as high school as it gets.

It's a small world....want proof - I met someone in Spain that knows someone I know in Central Texas and we didn't meet by them "setting it up" - it was a happenstance occurence!

The idea that you're being "loyal" to someone becuase they want something they can't have...that's ridiculous. Put that in the workplace....if you're both up for the promotion...or worse yet by this reasoning - you both know the promotion is potentially going to be made available and without saying a word you begin to take on projects, pursue diligently your daily tasks, try to "outshine" one another - never discussing why - is one of you supposed to turn down the promotion/raise because you both "wanted it"? Never gonna happen.


Now, if you want a group of women that is "loyal to each other" - you outta hang around some dykes. There's a "loyal group" - they're all willing to "do" one another, and of course they all consent to that swapping out equation - provided that nobody is ging to "leave a relationship and the commitment/security/obligation to the original partner". There's one for all and all for one....so literally it'd make you sick if you attempt a visual.

I just don't see it where there is no established commitment, or where there is obviously no reciprocated desire.

I do see it completely in teh case of married situations, or of committed situations where one person is pursuant...nd the other less than value-stellar individual is "willing to take what is offered". In which case, leave the mate and the woman to their own devices - they deserve one another and you deserve better - so go find it.

Erin

quickblade14@hotmail.com

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-07-2003
Wed, 11-05-2003 - 11:42pm
Thanks for your thoughts - I agree completely. I don't mind at all that she's dating him - I think it's great! - just that she made the point of asking me about what happened w/ him but then didn't say anything to me about her dating him.

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-07-2003
Wed, 11-05-2003 - 11:58pm
Hi,

I understand where you're coming from, so I'm not going to slam you at all. I had some experiences like that when I was younger too, and I was a veeeery sensitive kid, so it had a huge impact on me too and for years my closest friends were men. However, starting in college and even moreso as I've gotten older, I've met some really great women friends, and honestly, as much as I love my guy friends, it's just not the same. I can talk so much more freely w/my women friends, they keep up w/what's going on in my life and I do the same w/them - I truly have some wonderful friends now. And there's nothing like girl talk! :-)

However, even in adulthood, a few years ago I had a very negative experience w/a female friend, and that briefly made me reevaluate my other friendships. But in retrospect, I can see where I missed all kinds of signs that this particular friend was extremely insecure and jealous (which is what ultimately doomed the friendship). So while that temporarily made me hold back in friendships, I realized that it wasn't worth it for me to hold back in my other friendships just in case they also failed. Life's too short, in my opinion.

I guess my point is that there are some truly wonderful women friends out there to be had. But there are also some dangerous ones. I think that a pretty good way to distinguish between them is to look at how secure she is in her life, her choices. Sure, all of us have some insecurities - but for some people the insecurities are so strong that they rule her life, instead of staying in the back of her mind.

This theory, btw, has strong roots in my own life - when I was younger, I was pretty insecure - and guess what - I was a much worse friend back then. Now I'm much more secure in who I am - and I am a much better and more loyal friend.

Anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind or anything, just sharing my experience for what it's worth.

ginger



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