To nice / polite?
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| Wed, 06-06-2007 - 7:15pm |
Well, I will try to keep this as short as I can . . .but think it will be a little long. It is relevant to very specific comments made by my last girlfriend.
First, let be very clear what this is NOT about . . . Bad boy / good boy anything . . confidence, security / insecurity or any of that “stuff”.
Quick background, ex wife, bipolar and very, very narcissistic. I did that for 18 years. For those who have been with people like this, this will need no explanation, for those lucky enough not to have had this experience . .I could not convey it anyway, suffice it to say it is an unpleasant place to be when treatment is refused, and from others I have talked to very hard even with treatment.
Anyway . . .my ex girlfriend. Now she was a wonderful woman. Got to spend something like a year and a half with her, and lived with her for six months. In the end . . .between my job, the stress of money, took a big load out of my marriage even with a great job and income at the time, it was kind of a wash regarding money . . . a few other issues . . .in the end it did not work. She was not in love with me and it was time to go. I got it. We never fought, even in the hours of conversation during our separation . . .one of the things I loved about her. Solid girl. We had 2 or 3 small spats, silly issues where I raised my voice at all in the whole time we were together, and I apologized for it each time as the value of subject compared to her . . . .I meant it.
Now . . .this is the crux of it . . .
During those hours of conversation . . the two small things that are sticking with me . . the things I am not sure I understand if it is “my” issue or “hers” . . .
She said I was to nice, too polite.
I am again going to keep this real, in our discussions about . . .the “most personal interactions” between us . . she said I “raised the bar” to a point she was concerned about ever enjoying it the same way again, and frankly I felt the same way . . . we were VERY compatible in all “those” areas. (-: It was not about all that “stuff”. I was very open around her . . . and am not always so polite . .LOL It was very specific.
What she set out as her examples . . . she said I never complained about anything. And that “made her feel like a “b” if she did complain in contrast. And those few little fights, the apologizes I offered . . she hated that, really hated it . . they really, really turned her off. When she at last told me about this . . . it was clearly a very big deal to her.
I have thought a lot about this . . .part of it for me . . . my time in the service, my life, my marriage . . I think my “threshold” regarding what constitutes an issue was much higher than hers. Plus, I am an only kid, she came from a huge family . . a life time of different interactions . . . but I am still interested in thoughts . . . I feel this has as much to do with me understanding how something is affecting the person I am with at least as much as how it affects me . . . and how I might resolve this in future relationships.
What was wrong with being good to her, in saying I was sorry when I truly was . . or not complaining when I had nothing to complain about? And worst . . .as I “really” never thought of complaining . . .how would I fix something like that in the future and prevent another woman from feeling those . . . feelings of constraint . . .she seemed to feel?
Just for the record, in another short relationship . . I had a lot to complain about and did . . .(-; I just would hate to lose another girl like the one in question.
I would be very interested in outside views.

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My general rule-of-thumb that it is always both people who are responsible for the success or failure of the relationship.
We each bring our baggage, shadow selves, hot buttons, family-of-origin sh*t, maturity, self awareness, communication skills and commitment in working things out to the relationship.
Marshall Rosenberg's model of Non Violent Communication says that for every negative emotion there is an unmet need. www.cnvc.org for a list of universal human needs.
I suspect she has a need for self expression and the safety of being able to express yourself. You did not say how you responded to her when she complained. I suspect that is more of the issue not so much how you did or did not complain.
Did she really hate the arguments or that really hate that you did not complain?
Mark
Clearly she had a need to express more . . .she would send a steak back in a heartbeat if it was overcooked . . .I never have. (-: But I have never had a bad steak. LOL
She held it back with me, and what I just said . . .sending the steak back . . .I should have known her silence with me meant something in contrast to those things in hind sight. We tend to see what we want when we are to close I think. I am still not sure what the answer was . . .contrary to what you implied . . witch is logical and I would have gone the same direction . . . she was very direct and passionate when she descried this to me. I think she held this in to long, but in the end, like most things, she was very honest with me. She was one of the most honest people I have ever met. She really would put herself out there 98% of the time. I think I described this pretty close.
The subject in the end surfaced a bit too late. She had already processed our separation in her mind . . it was just a matter of letting go.
In our conversations about this when we did at last have them . . .I told her to let it out. I am a big boy, and if we hit a sore subject . . .I will stand my ground. If we hit a compromise, I will . . .the same risk every body has . . . . . and frankly, when I am dead wrong . . so what, I am. That I can correct. This is simple real life stuff.
Look, she was a smart, good woman . . . we no longer speak nor did we stay friends . . . each of us found that a little . . “painful’ . . but her I will never say anything negative about. The reason I risked the subject is because her opinion mattered to me.
Okay I don't know what being an only child had to do with it as I am an only child and my threshold for crap doesn't seem to be the same as yours.
Your style would rather annoy me as well. I think you would seem like a pushover to me, always apologizing and never seeming to be bothered or just going with the flow with everything. You couldn't possible be okay with everything, she would probably feel like you were always just saying yes to everything just to keep the peace. That's how I would feel and that would bug.
You don't have to fight with people but it just would seem like you didn't have a mind of your own if you were always agreeing with everything she said or apologizing for everything, you would seem like a doormat and nobody wants to be with a doormat. That's the way I'm reading it, if I'm not reading it correctly please advise.
Smile,
Deirdre
I couldn't have said it better myself. I think her saying you were "too nice" was her way of saying, without being rude, that you seemed like a pushover. My ex was like this, and it frustrated me that he never seemed to have a differing opinion on anything and never seemed to feel strongly about a whole lot. If I got upset, he'd just say, "sorry." That's it, which to me just seemed like he wanted to end the specific fight and not address anything behind it. Sometimes that was fine, if the spat was something generally unimportant, but I got the idea that he was often still pissed at me and just wanted to appease.
I don't know, I think nice is often confused with pushover. I'm nice but I'm definitely NOT a pushover. It might just be a compatibility thing. I just couldn't be with someone who seemingly lacked the passion, for us and almost everything, that I often have a tad too much of.
I had to have a conversation with a "mutual friend" of ours before responding again. . . started with marks post.
I was in hotels 150 nights or more a year . .. context again. (My friend thinks I soaked up as much as I could when home, call that good or bad.) When I was home we shopped together, cooked together, cleaned up together . . .and I believe that was something we both enjoyed. She gained like 20 lbs while we were together, we enjoyed it to much sometimes. LOL She was never married, and her longest relationship was 4 years with a man much like my ex wife, very narcissistic and cruel. (Again according to my mutual friend a "pattern") And something we shared in common and spoke of often. Not in this context however.
Anyway . .. what I just asked my friend, (she is gay and lives with my ex's girlfriends best friend in the world. She was in a place to see each side well.) was did the push over thing come up, and she said no . .. it was because I did not complain about her weight gain, or wearing make up, house cleaning, being late .. . or the "why don't you" kind of things. (This was the first time I asked our "mutual friend" these things out of respect for our friendship .. . I am careful not to bring up my ex or her current activity's.) Anyway the feed back she offered was that my ex felt I held those things back and was dishonest as a result . . .something along those terms. . . .. frankly it never crossed my mind . . . I thought she was hot and fun. (-:
The only child thing . . .she loved to fight with her family I think. (-: I learned to fight in the Marine corps . ..it just is not comparable in interaction. LOL I pick my "wars" with great care. Then I fight to win.
Saying I'm sorry all the time? . .. it was like 3 times .. just happened to be the only 3 times it came up. (-: And it was it genuine. I think in context of the past few push over remarks, frequency might apply more and might be valid, and the apologize was the icing on the cake.
Look, we disagreed all the time, we both follow politics and are often on different ends of the spectrum. (Subject mater of my raised voice twice.) We disagreed about decisions we made regarding our kids, hers finished high school last week, my youngest is 19. I just don't get mad about things and turn them into fights often. It is possible to talk, regardless of the difficulty of the subject, I find it more effective . . .yelling all to often becomes "personal" and WAY off subject. That is why I tried so hard to say what this was NOT about.
Last . . .I am not into games . .. I say what I think, good or bad. Not a lot of "mystery" with me. I don't connect well with woman who need that "challenge" . . .I often become friends with them however. I understand that need. I work to hard and have all the yelling and heavy hitting conflict I need at work. I want a mature woman who like me is not afraid to be honest overall and just share her feelings. .. .that can be boring to many I know. It also is it's own challenge as it puts very difficult subject mater on the table. But for me it is a great place to be.
(Men and woman, some people thrive on challenging each other, I do get it, it is NOT a bad thing.)
Again . . .this was not the reason we broke up, just two examples in a long list of heart felt conversation over several weeks. Most of which I got.
In a very broad stroke, one dimensional . .. always sorry type way I would absolutely agree with you. And I am quite sure she "protected me" in the way she said things as well. Marks comments prompted me to break my rule and ask a few question of our mutual friend. And the following two prompted another. I will give you this, I am a go with the flow and very non confrontational guy for the most part. My own best friend likes far more "fire" in her relationships. The guy she was dating when I met her is in prison for trying to kill the "next" guy she dated, put him in the hospital. That is drama I don't need, and would do poorly. The push over / stand up thing has levels and extremes on both ends. . .. I fit the statement . . but trust me . . .there are those out there that would not refer to me as nice. (-: I am not "fire", however I am not letting anyone wipe there feet on me. I do lack mystery. I am fearless at times with emotional risk. (-: Always harder to express ones own shortcomings well. (-:
I just don't know how to make things up to complain about if they aren't heart felt. The reactions are interesting so far . . .
For what it is worth, this is a quick summery of what "my friend" had to say. My friend was willing to express a little, and rightfully not about to share personal conversations she has had with my ex. She thinks I laid this out pretty close, primary issues being my job, traveling and money. Most of the rest was just processing the break up. She said I was very nice and never to change, and did say she felt my ex is drawn to a very non compatible kind of man, including me, good on the way in, but short lived. She said I "got in" because I was a bit fearless and relentless in challenging her emotions. She said she personally felt, and always did fell we were to different in core areas. She said my ex struggled a great deal with her choice, did love me and was not "in love with me". She also agreed with what was said here, passion, not sex . . .but the need to feel a challenge to please . . .was missing.
More to it . .. but I am feeling a bit exposed as it is . .. .(-:
I'll try to shut up and just respond to questions from here.
Thanks for the feed back.
Don't worry, I don't disagree with you all that much . . .. we dated for a year . .. when "I was home" she spent most of that time at my place . .. perfect little "escape" . .. dinners, margaritas, great afternoons and evenings . . .we were compatible in many respects. (-: When I moved in, and it became real . . . well things are never simple, a LOT of other things were going on in both our life's .. . . . . .but I see a lot of validity in your comment knowing her the way I do. I think all of a sudden it became a very incomplete relationship for her. And I freely admit I am to easy going for some. Honestly, I think she had a love / hate relationship with the easygoing thing.
Had I been there every day, crash and burn faster or fixed? Who knows. Being out for a while now, I think it had to crash and burn at some point. She was one of those people who I will never forget however. I learned a lot about what a relationship can be from her.
Just to be very clear, it would not have "saved" the relationship had I figured out she felt these things sooner . . . what does bug me is I missed it, and did not get the issue on the table and out in the open. I have no fear of the hard subjects, and airing them out sometimes is admitting it is not working . .. not always an outcome we are willing to face. I usually can pick these things up in a persons eyes. The more I think about it, the more I think after I moved in it could have played a bigger role than I would like to admit. In the end I think "stacked" with other issues, it was not worth the effort to even get into it all for her.
I know there is no malice in what you said. (-: I do appreciate the input and I am paying attention. If I was not prepared for the answers . .I would not have risked the subject. This format does expose a person a bit. (-: I just am trying to keep it a little narrow . .. not as "defensive" as I might have come across yesterday . .. that might be a mistake . .. with a days reflection attached. (-: I might should be stepping back a little more, and taking a broader view.
Take care.
Is it possible she needed that conflict? She might not have even been aware of it herself when she told you, but saying you were "too nice" might have been her way of processing the fact that she required someone who was a bit more hot-headed (for lack of a better word).
In which case, it's not so much that you were "too nice" but, more specifically, you were too nice for her tastes.
It just sounds as though she was an insecure person, she was insecure about her abilities as a wife and she thought you harbored resentments towards her and although you stated you didn't she couldn't understand how you possibly couldn't because she herself would if she were you. Basically in her mind if she were you, she would resent the weight gain, the lack of household chores completed, not wearing makeup and her general lack of being a "good wife" she didn't think she was good enough for you and therefore this translated itself her feeling as though how you could possibly feel any other way.
This really had nothing to do with you and everything to do with her own self esteem issues.
Smile,
Deirdre
You might not be totally off base . . .I am sure she had her issues . . like me . . however . .she has never been married, and certainly not to me. (-: I did think about changing that however. (-: Just the best girlfriend I think I have ever had. I just told a "mutual" friend I think I am just trying to kick her of that pedestal "I" put her on. Silly . .. seems at my age I would know better. ((-:
But thanks . . ..
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