Update on Ian and men friends...L/P
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| Wed, 01-26-2005 - 3:51am |
Why is it, that I can vent to a woman, but not to a man? When I vent to a friend and get angry with her, we usually have a huge fight, or talk it out, but with a man, they assume I am playing the girlfriend! Why can I voice my opinion to a friend that I think is disrespecting me and hurting my feelings, but I can't to a guy? I'm really fuming right now. First Amendment made a point the other day in her post to me, saying maybe I am just needing Ian right now and that is why I blew up so much on him. Well, exactly! That's the point. I have been their for him to talk to him to get him to open up, tell me his problems, etc. We are friends. He says he cares about me and he wants to be their for me and I therefore, I take it that he meant it. It was the second time he is inconsiderate, rude and basically inattentive on the phone, gives me no support and I get upset. It's not like I never mentioned that and it was the first time. I mentioned his lack of attention twice before. It's not like I felt he thought, I just needed to vent and made no comment, but he really just gave me NO reaction that he was even really listening. Tinkering around with his stuff the whole time (on the computer writing to someone and then messing around with his gear and equipment.). I even commented on it and he just ignored the hint AGAIN. Anyway, I was feeling so emotionally raw from all my stress, that I just decided to end the call without saying something on the phone. I wrote him instead. I wrote him a pretty rude letter, but I still feel I had a right. In response, he has totally ignored me. I did write him another letter yesterday, because my girlfriends said, I should be the man about it and apologize for some of the statements. So I said, that I should of not been so unladylike in manner towards him and I apologize for that and it's not an excuse, but I was really hurt and I felt he had a serious lack of attention and he knows I am struggling and he knows I am going through some SERIOUS stress and he knows that financially I am not doing terrific, so I told him that I felt that he was being inconsiderate in our friendship and I felt he was walking all over me, by not giving me his full attention and taking me for granted, as if I were a money tree, by not showing me he was their for me. I told him I didn't expect any answers from him, but I expected him to say "Cat, it's going to be ok, just breath.", "Or, I know I can't help you, but I am here for you." Just to know I know he cared. That I thought we wanted to communicate better, build on our friendship, because we were curious where this all was going, but for now it's just a friendship, like we both want and I think that he needs to tell me, if he still even wants that, or if he feels like I am a burden or annoying him. Again, I apologized for my rude behaviour, told him I promise to be upfront and open straight away and I just wanted him to know that.
Fine. What happens? Nothing. Still no response and I KNOW he has time. Not even a, "Hey, got the email, need to think, get back to you." That of course now makes me furious for even apologizing to him for being rude to him. I could bite myself in the butt for it. Why? Because I have been their for him for EVERYTHING. Listened to him and talked to him and he said he would be their for me just the same. Now, I see he isn't interested as long as I don't entertain him. I'm feeling so down!
Great, now this:
All my guy buddies, that I have, i have now basically lost. Why? Because, they don't just want to be friends! I suddenly have had one tell me he loves me, the other two trying to get me in the sack. I feel really sad, because, these are guys I really used to BS with all the time. I trusted them. I truly trusted them and I thought we were lots of fun and always having a great time, talking, etc, but now I see, they don't seem me as a FRIEND. It's not possible for them. One guy said, he can't be with me anymore, because he feels like he has to kiss me and he hold me. That it just hurts him to much to see me flirting with other guys or going out on a date. These guys are REALLY nice, but the reality of it is, I am not attracted to them. They are totally opposite from what I would ever want in a man. BUT they are super friends. Now I've lost the whole lot, including Ian within 4wks.
I used to brag that I have guys that don't want more than friendship from me, that, we are cool the way things are and that is that. Now I realize, I am such a fool, that men, really do think that you are either a sex object, you are playing the girlfriend, or that they want a relationship from you. I don't have this NEED to be with a guy on a sex level, I want to have a friend, a buddy, but I am realizing this will not work and I am starting to feel really used on all sides from the male population.

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First of all I want to say HUGS to you for all the stress you are going through. YOu sound like you are in one of those mud puddles of life where everything is going the wrong way.
I think you have wrong expectations for Ian and other men in your lives. Men are not girl friends. They are very different from women.
Most men do not have the same emotional capacity as most women. They do not know how to listen to a story and offer support (you have to teach them that in most cases). If you tell them a problem they want to fix it.
They usually do not like to listen to hours of unending babble from a woman. This is especially true at night when they are tired.
I think you need to find a healthy outlet for your stress right now. That might be a combination of things - girl friends, this board, exercise, a hobby to get you out of the house so you can forget your troubles and come back to them with a fresh perspective, meditation, spiritual involvement. Take time to work on you so you have your feelings and emotions under control.
I have found this book: Woman Power : Transform Your Man, Your Marriage, Your Life
by Laura Schlessinger to be a great revelation. It explains the power of a woman in very different terms of what we might think of today. Additionally, the book, Men Are From Mars Women Are From Venus has been insightful to me.
We cannot control many things in life but we can control how we think about them and how we react to them.
Edited 1/26/2005 9:07 am ET ET by west1745
Well, your probably right about wanting to fix it. He just contacted me and told me not worry about the email I wrote, because I was right, he shouldn't of acted so disinterested. (sigh)(relief) He said he can't wait for me to get here, to see me and because I need the vacation.
Thanks for listening to me. I am just absolutely sinking in stress.
I have NONE. Judy, I am just way to overlaoded. Between two jobs, two kids, my mom, the damn commute that takes 2 hours each way. All my girlfriends are in relationships and they have no time due to their freaky schedules. It's been awful. Really awful. Then, when I want to talk, everyone is hours behind me. You guys, Ian, my best friend, my sister (whose in the dog house). Still, it's getting lonely.
WOW - That is a long commute. Take care, mud puddles eventually dry up!! It will get better.
Where is Ian now? Is he okay with the duties and all?
I spend 20hrs a week on the road to get to this job that is a 30 hr week! It's ridiculous.
Ian is in Texas. I booked my tickets today! I am so excited. Just another 12 wks to go. It seems so far, but so close. He lives two hours from San Antonio, where I am moving to, and we will be stationed their for the next 4yrs at least. Right now, he's ok, it's been a year since he was deployed, BUT, next year when I move over in February, he will be deployed to leave again in April or May for another 12-18 months. I have a commitment phobia. A really huge one, so I now know I need to try and relax on this. I need to breathe through this or I WILL sabatoge it again, like I always do. I know we are on the same wave lengths of what we want and we have been through it all, so we understand one another well. We haven't seen each other yet, but I've partied with his younger brother, who came to my birthday party. Boy, did that make him jealous. His brother gets to party with me, calls him to brag about it and poor Ian does all the writing. LOL His brother is an angel and loves and adores Ian, so I know that Ian is that same person, because Aaron always says, if he turn out half the man that his brother is, then he know he's made it.
Maybe you can read some good books on your commute!!
That is so cool that you have met his brother.
I think I would have an issue with him being gone so long. That is not going to be easy on you. I would not be able to commit to that either. But then again you never know. You have to take it each day and go with the flow. It is hard to meet the right person and in 18 months you might not have met anyone else. I have been on a 2 year dating dry spell.
Cat, I am sorry you are so frustrated and things aren't falling into place for you. I wish you had a really great girlfriend over there to go out for a cup of coffee and vent all of this stuff out. OH, and so you remember, that whole Mars and Venus thing really is true. When you tell a man your troubles, he feels compelled to "fix" them. Always. And if he's going to feel like he should be "Fixing" you, then it stands to reason he'd feel some kind of commitment to you.
And I just want to give you my two cents on the Ian-not-being-a-great-phone-conversationalist thing. Men just aren't. They just don't have the same capacity that we women to do spend hours on the phone chatting with no physical interaction. I know that Jas and I talked on the phone ALOT for our first couple of weeks (maybe month and a half?) dating, and then that was IT! We'd get on the phone, while we were dating, on days we didn't see each other and it was exactly as you described it. Tension. Who's going to carry the conversation? Why don't you want to talk to me? But it's just men. Try to give Ian the benefit of the doubt that he DOES care about you, but just simply put, ran out of the ability to hash over the same things over and over again. WE can do that. Men usually can't. If they don't find a solution to a problem pretty quickly, they get frustrated and don't want to keep talking.
And honestly? I don't blame him for not jumping to answer your email right away. If you jumped down his throat, he's probably feeling a little wounded too. You did a good thing trying to patch it up, but now I think you've got to give him some breathing space.
I destroyed a relationship once by email. I used it as a way to vent my frustrations that he was not living up to my expectations. I soon realized a nasty email is really easy to ignore. What I was doing was expecting a back and forth conversation but approaching it using a one-sided medium. In my current relationship, the only thing I send via email are quick, short notes like "hey, I won't be around tonight" or when there is something I want to say but that does not require a response like the couple times my bf was really depressed and I just needed to let him know I would be there when he was ready to talk. When I have something to say to my bf that requires a response like I am upset or confused or have a question, I save it for when we are face to face or at least on the phone. That way he has to respond.
I think the angry email was doubly bad (and hey, I don't have a long track record of strong, healthy relationships so feel free to disregard anything I say, I promise I won't be offended). The follow up apology email was good. You have to approach any relationship with an amount of respect and understanding. Of course you had the "right" to send the rude letter but that doesn't mean it was going to help the situation and bring about the result you needed and wanted. Look at it from his perspective might help too. Here he is, being a nice guy, doing some stuff and listening to you at the same time, thinking everything is fine on his end and you have a lot going on but you are certainly a strong capable one and he knows you'll get it under control. Then all of the sudden, without being the one to shun you, not the one who refuse to make time for you or help you with the move and the job hunt, he is now the focus of all your frustration and anger! Your email probably hit him like a brick over the head and he may have had no idea of how to respond for fear of making you more angry.
Take me this morning for example. Last night I noticed the EZ Pass people (auto toll thingamajig) deducted $85 from my account. They used to take out $35 at a pop, then it went to $55 and now $85!!! I looked online and also saw two $5 charges for times that the toll thingy didn't read my EZ Pass! I called this morning and I certainly would have been justified in yelling the customer service guy's ear off. And I know it would have felt good to do that. But instead, I said "I have two problems and I'm really hoping you can help me out with them." He explained what happened and why the debit was $85, and although I didn't like the answer it made sense, and then he told me how I can get reimbursed for the $10 charges. Now, this isn't exactly the same as when you are building a loving relationship, but the point is that if you approach the other person (in any relationship, be it a customer service guy or a boyfriend) with the goal in mind (in your case, you wanted him to know how you felt and what you needed him to do about it) and not with the intent of getting all your anger out, you might have gotten a better response from him sooner. And I think in the end that is what you did with the second email, which I am so glad he finally responded to. He sounds like a very nice guy.
I agree with what west said. It takes time to teach a man (or any person really) what you need in the relationship, what you want to hear when you are down, what you need when something stressful happens (a hug, a shoulder to cry on, reassurance, an outlet to vent, or whatever). Every person is different (you surely have different needs than his past relationships did) and you haven't even met Ian face to face yet. Two things make it hard, for one he doensn't have any experience in comforting you and that will take time to teach him the best way, and two, it's a lot harder to comfort someone over the phone.
You said before you blocked him on your instant messenger (I think that is what it was). Your blocking his messages is sort of like leaving the house and going to a friend's house and hoping he will come and seek you out and give you all the comfort and reassurance you need. But you did it the only way you could since your long-distance from each other by blocking the instant messenger. When I was younger I had the habit of hanging up on my ex-h (before when we were just dating) if he pissed me off, or in a fight I would go lock myself in the bathroom. I soon learned this would not work in that relationship. If I hung up on him, he would call back and be so upset that I had done that, and all it did was cause a new thing to argue about. I learned that if I was upset with him, I had to talk to him. If I ran away and locked myself in the bathroom, he just wouldn't tolerate that. It didn't help and it made the argument worse, so I had to stop doing it. Each relationship goes through a process of establishing the rules that the couple will live by, unwritten rules, and they are different now than they might have been in any of your past relationships. My bf and I have an unwritten rule that if he is depressed or upset, he goes off and spends time alone and I don't push it. I never had any other man I was with be that way, but that is what my bf needs to be able to do and that is okay.
I think what you've just done with Ian is establish a new rule, that when you are upset you need him to listen and reassure you and if you don't get what you need you will communicate that to him in a rational way not an angry way. Don't be surprised if there is a little more refinement to be done on the rule, or if he needs to be reminded of the rule now and then, that is part of the process too. He probably does not understand the rule as "be supportive" he is probably thinking of terms of "don't put her on speaker, don't fiddle with other things, say this or that" but down the road you might need to add some things to the list like "be clear that I am on her side, don't cut the conversation short because the show I want to watch is coming on, wait to bring up my own problems until she is done talking about hers." Eventually he will have a list in his head that matches the overall category of "be supportive" and you'll feel you are on the same page.
AWE! Thanks so much sweetie! That was the best advice I could ever have. I am printing this one out and putting it on my desk to remember. I posted somewhere saying I thought I might be a commitment phobic and how to get over that, and instead I was told that I am a commitment frantic dependent. That was a rude awakening, but maybe the person that wrote that is right. I am unable to like, love, respect and cherish myself and be ok with myself, so I sabotoge things around me and attract only bad vibes, because I don't believe I deserve to be happy. They say I seek unconditional love. I don't think that so much, but I do think I want to be sure that this time around no one leaves me, no one screws me over, no one hurts me anymore.
Really! Thank you so much for the terrific advice. I love it.
Big hugs,
- Catherine
You know, I read your post before I left for work and I thought, I need to think this one through before I respond. I'm glad it helped.
>>>I am unable to like, love, respect and cherish myself and be ok with myself, so I sabotoge things around me and attract only bad vibes, because I don't believe I deserve to be happy.<<<
This is a big deal to figure this out. A few weeks ago in therapy I discovered that I can't express my feelings to my bf as 'important' because I myself don't believe my feelings are important. If I don't think it's important, how can I have the expectation that he will think that? So I'm working on it.
>>>...I do think I want to be sure that this time around no one leaves me, no one screws me over, no one hurts me anymore.<<<
This is a nice goal, but an impossible one. There is no way to be sure of this. Love is taking risk and you have to accept you might get left, screwed and hurt. There are lots of things you can do to lessen the risk of getting screwed and you do that mostly by picking a good, solid, upstanding, responsible, trustworthy man you respect and admire. There isn't much you can do to make sure he won't leave you and you won't feel hurt. You just have to make the best decisions you can at the time for you and your children, and hope.
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