What Would You Do?!?

Avatar for mandymi
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Registered: 05-20-2003
What Would You Do?!?
31
Mon, 03-28-2005 - 11:35pm

Hi ladies... still getting settled in here and having trouble setting up a reliable internet connection, so please forgive my sporadic posting, but here goes:


While I'm in VA, exbf is supposed to be taking care of DS.




http://somedaysijustworkhere.blogspot.com/">

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-19-2004
Wed, 03-30-2005 - 8:28am

>>>As for exposing el kiddo to both sets of values and letting him choose, the kid is FIVE.<<<

I wasn't saying he has to choose now, I was saying that when he grows up he'll choose for himself what he believes is right. You simply can't avoid him being exposed to two sets of examples of how to live your life even if you know yours is the better way.

Why do you call it babysitting when he's with his dad? Isn't it just parenting? I have heard over and over from men (my ex, my bf, my therapist) that it irks them to no end when they are with their children and someone says oh how nice they are babysitting. Nobody ever refers to time with mom as babysitting, but from what men tell me it's common (and insulting, even if you don't like his parenting skills) to say that about men. I'm not trying to nitpick your terminology, it's been a recent topic with others in my life so it's on my mind.

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Avatar for cl_beckty
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Registered: 03-20-2003
Wed, 03-30-2005 - 10:02am

My thoughts on this...


Babysitting vs parenting.


I understand that a man could be offended be being asked to "babysit" his own child. My DH definitely is. However, if he behaves like your typical babysitter (non custodial. Disinterested in child's daily life. Gives him food/entertainment for a few hours in the evening) then maybe he is just that. A babysitter with some shared DNA.


If a man acts like a parent, he deserves to be called such.


I think the reason women rarely get that "title" is that they are usually the custodial parent and have more of the drive to nurture their children in a parental role. I have, however, known women who were NOT this type of parent. They were in fact simply babysitters. Non custodial with limited parenting time. Disinterested.

Becky

Becky

 

 

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Registered: 02-19-2004
Wed, 03-30-2005 - 10:17am

I think people automatically assume that fathers are not nurturing and not as much of a "parent" as mothers are. I think that is ridiculous. My ex is not the best parent, not by a long shot, but he is no babysitter. My therapist strikes me as the type of guy that would be a great parent, and he's still married so he's in no way a disinterested NCP and he told me he's got the babysitter comment many times. From the outside looking in, my bf might appear to be a disinterested NCP and might be called a babysitter, but they don't see the pain he endures being separated from his child (even when the most he had to go was 7 days between seeing his ds). He doesn't show that to people that might be inclined to call him a babysitter, including his ex. I believe it assumes a lot to call a parent a babysitter, and it's not like calling them a parent gives them any overwhelming underserving respect - calling a father a babysitter is insulting, calling a father a parent is not insulting. You don't have to call him a great parent, but call him a parent because that is what he is. My dad was a pretty awful father when you think about it. He was always my father and was never my babysitter.

If Mandi's intent is just to express her negative feelings about her child's father, that is one thing and she has the right to do it and this is a good place to do it. But MOST fathers are not like her ex and MANY fathers get called babysitters (from what I hear).

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Avatar for cl_beckty
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Registered: 03-20-2003
Wed, 03-30-2005 - 11:16am

The thing is, some of us never had the luxury of having an ex who shared parenting responsibilities. Even if you ex isn't your ideal of a great dad, he nontheless behaves like a father. (and I realize you have a father who missed the mark at times, but you still consider him a dad)


My son's bio dad was, simply put, a sperm donor. He never bothered to behave like anything BUT a disinterested party except when A) he wanted to "Show off" that he had a kid or B) When he was trying to placate me so that he wouldn't have to pay child support. AS SOON AS child support was officially instated he NEVER paid and he only occasionally picked up ds to hang out at McDonalds for an hour, then took him to his mom's house where he left him while he went out with buddies.


My son's father WAS a babysitter. He never earned the respect to be called a parent. Never. My dad was a better parent to my son than his bio dad. I guess that means I should never have called my dad a babysitter when he hung out with him?


Bottom line is, ANY PARENT does in fact have to earn the right to be called mom and dad. I don't care how biological it is, or how

Becky

 

 

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Registered: 02-19-2004
Wed, 03-30-2005 - 11:28am

What I'm saying is that any father out there - good or bad - gets called a babysitter based on the same facts you stated, they have to prove they are a good father first. Does my therapist have to prove to every single person on this planet that he's an involved father before they stop calling him that? Apparently he does because from what he says it hasn't stopped yet.

I would never refer to my father as a babysitter. He was a crappy father but he was my father and that is that. Saying he was my father doesn't mean he was a good one or that he ever should have been one. If he had been just a babysitter, I wouldn't have to devote so much therapy time to his influence on my life (or lack thereof).

I think it's a double standard. Mothers do not seem to need to prove anything to anyone to be called a parent. They are given the benefit of the doubt because as you put it, women are more nurturing. Fathers are guilty until proven innocent (even the good one's).

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Registered: 02-19-2004
Wed, 03-30-2005 - 11:42am

I want to add that I'm not saying you or Mandi can't call your ex's babysitters, you certainly can if you want. I was just trying to explore the reasons because (again, from what I hear) this is a very common thing. That people at the grocery store and the school and family events and everywhere men happen to be with their children people make comments about dad being a babysitter, and that it is not strictly focused on bad fathers. It seems to me like a completely unnecessary insult to all male parents and I guess it occurs simply because all men are perceived as less nurturing than women. Which then seems to imply that you have to be a certain type of parent to be a 'true' parent. What about my bf who would be a very nurturing father (was a very nurturing father) except for the fact the courts and his ex have succeeded in removing the child from his life? It's not like men, even the really good fathers, ever get a chance to be the primary parent when the parents aren't together. Even if dad is a really good dad, mom is presumed to be the better parent and dad is stuck with weekend status (unless mom voluntarily gives up custody or there is proven unfit or some other rare circumstances). And it does sound like Mandi's ex is willing to be there for his son, he's just not a very good dad. An uninvolved NCP would not take a child for months at a time, IMHO, but a dad would.




Edited 3/30/2005 12:43 pm ET ET by firstamendment

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Registered: 05-25-2004
Wed, 03-30-2005 - 12:16pm

Everyone here makes excellent points.

I think we all have to try to view the father, whatever his capacity, as the father. While my exh is a lousy husband and a 25% coparent (meaning I carry MORE than half the load), in my opinion, he has very valuable merits to my son. He plays with him and my son enjoys his time with him.

It is hard - but I know it is important to take myself out of the picture and see that another able/capable (mentally) parent is important to my son. I always speak of his father in a positive tone and let him know how lucky he is to have two wonderful parents who love him. I always put my son first. He sees that I manage his father and set firm boundaries but he also sees that I promote their bond and their time together as much as I can. He also knows that his father and I differ on many decisions, including food, sleeping, discipline and such. I have never discussed dating or sleeping over with my exh because I don't want to know and I don't care. But at the same time, I have the luxury of knowing that his father would never do anything intentionally to harm him and is a good and responsible person.

In the end, we can only control ourselves and how we react.

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Registered: 02-19-2004
Wed, 03-30-2005 - 12:34pm

Oh, and what about this one. My uncle raised his two son's himself. His parenting was more than questionable. One thing wrong and their bottoms were beaten raw (they lived with us for a while, it was awful). He was always yelling at them. He didn't care if they slept at the table, they were sitting there all night if they didn't eat their veggies. He also made sure they were properly clothed, they went to school every day, etc., and they are now adults (one is normal, one is very weird but seems happy with his life as he has chosen to live it). Btw, talk about discipline problems. I remember one time my older cousin standing in my grandmother's kitchen holding a lighter to her curtains - he's the one that is a normal adult now (just has his second child, seems to be a good father).

So my uncle was standing at his older son's wedding and someone says to him "So did you get to see them much as they grew up?" Heaven forbid someone would think he raised them. Heaven forbid someone would "assume" that. Heaven forbid they would think that it was the children's mothers (both of them, my uncle wasn't so good at picking wives either) walked out on their own children and were very uninvolved NCP mothers (each went years at a time without seeing their son). Nobody in their right mind would think that.

So what do you call him? He was not nurturing, he was the opposite. I would not call him a good father. But he was there, he didn't abandon them. Is he a father, even though he was a bad father? Should we call him a babysitter? Should we call my cousin's mother's their babysitters? Does that mean that they have no real parents, since all three parents (my uncle and both the mothers) were so awful at it?

I wanted to get that out since I thought of it, but now I will shut up :)

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Avatar for cl_beckty
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Registered: 03-20-2003
Wed, 03-30-2005 - 12:54pm

No, I agree. Your uncle was an involved parent. I know plenty of less-than-ideal mothers, who nurture in their own ways. And those wives of your uncle that abandoned their children? NOT worthy of the title "mother". Not at all. I guess "egg donor" applies here. ;)


You and West can say "A bad dad is better than no dad" and that's perhaps true. But what about a "never there unless he has selfish motives" dad? Not a dad. He just isn't. West, you're ex might be crap, but your ds enjoys time with him and your ex is adamant about his parenting time. Have either of you had kids who were promised a visit and then spent all evening waiting around bummed out for a dad who had better things to do than pick up a phone and say "I am not going to make it"? Do you have ex's who show up for their parenting time one out of every 3 times (When it's convienent for them) and then drop the kiddos off early enough so they can still go out and party?


It's true that women are assumed the more nurturing party by most of the world. That's because, by and large, they ARE. You uncle's situation was out of the ordinary. I hope that he stuck up for himself by replying that he has in fact raised his sons singlehandedly, and set the person who made the comment straight.


Ok, this conversation is bringing back really crappy memories and it's starting to piss me off. LOL


I'll choose to remember that I had the option to legally scrape out the worthless sperm donor in favor of a man who loves and nurtures my son and proudly calls him SON (and will not allow himself to be refered to as "Stepfather") and whom my son adores.

Becky

Becky

 

 

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Wed, 03-30-2005 - 1:03pm

I do see what you mean on the babysitter aspect of it.

I see it with my dh.

Once or twice a month - I have a girls' night out. And every single time - dh will say something about "being home with the boys - as Min has gone out" and his friends will say something to the effect of "oh, you are stuck home babysitting?" My dh always responds "no, I'm not stuck home babysitting. I'm spending the night in my home with my children being a parent."

And I also see it with my oldest son - with whom I share joint/50/50 custody with my ex with. Whenever I say "he's with his dad this week" people respond with "oh, cool that your ex babysits him" or "that's cool he's visiting his dad." No, his dad isn't babysitting him. He's parenting him. No, he isn't "visiting" his dad - he's living with him and being raised by him.

Mothers are always assumed to "mother" and "parent" - and dads are normally assumed to "babysit". I do agree with you.