Is it selfishness or nature?

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Is it selfishness or nature?
24
Sat, 08-30-2003 - 4:43pm
I am really starting to question men. Most, on average, are just NOT reliable at all. In the last week day I have heard myself say "oh he's a man...they are all like that" too many times. My male coworker was suppose to do something important and "forgot". Guy friend was suppose to meet me for dinner and was an hour late...my brother needed to be home by 5pm (he left for golf at noon!) so my sister-in-law & I could do some shopping (her urgency was HIS power bars, apparently he gets grumpy when she doesn't keep them stocked)...by 7, we just took the kid with us...and when she drove me home at 9pm she still hadn't heard from him. I'm bloody embarassed MY brother would behave that way - he is such a responsible guy! In fact, he was one man I've always looked to to restore my faith in the decency of men ;-) Today, I called a guy and asked a simple yes or no question: would you like to go golfing today? (he's been saying "we should" "we gotta go sometime" etc) And he says, "I'll call you back." Of course, he DIDN'T. This is just one typical week - nothing new or out of the ordinary. So are men really this thoughtless & inconsiderate or is there something wrong with their brains that makes them this way?

Cause I gotta say, having vented to my gfs - they agree with me that this REGULAR, COMMONPLACE male behaviour. I am not implying ALL men are like this and I am not implying women aren't. I am merely saying my gfs are rarely late, and rarely forget to "call" and NEVER just disappear for hours on end...its my experience.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 08-30-2003 - 9:07pm
To be honest, it sounds like you are male bashing. Something that's generally discouraged on this board (along with female bashing). Statements that follow this basic format are generally not really productive:

"Are all (name your group) such a bunch of (name your negative comparison)? Or are they just (name another negative comparison)?"

Not really a productive question.

I have found both genders to have their fair share of folks who are late, on-time, and early. No one gender tends to fall into a particular category. Ones that are *always* late, don't tend to be close friends. I just don't have a high tolerance for them, thus they are weeded out.

Your gf's and you may prioritize certain things, thus you can look at each other as prime examples of what you consider good behavior. Then you compare yourselves to the world at large (either gender) and you will find them lacking. In this case, men. So comparing random men, who you have no real control of associating with, to the gf's you have that are hand-picked based on your values. No real comparison.

However, generally speaking, there are different things that men and women prioritize. When one of those differences is at hand, whichever one doesn't prioritize that item seems to be found lacking. In your example, calling people on the phone (or calling them back) is an item you value more then the men you are dealing with. I'm sure there are some things men value (perhaps changing the oil in the car, just a possible example) that aren't really as important to you.

Just because two groups of people have different priorities does not make one group stupid and inconsiderate, while the others are shining paramours of virtue and being sensible. They are just different from each other.

My wife has made note that 8 out of 10 times I swear at another car for doing something stupid, it's a female driver (my wife is the one seeing and determining this). She's become rather embarrased of her own gender on the road.

I would never come to the boards and say "Are all women drivers really that bad?". Of course not. Everyone is an individual. We just happen to be catching an abnormally high percentage in my area. I don't really know why. I simply don't attribute the behavior to the entire gender though...

Brokk...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sun, 08-31-2003 - 8:53am
Title: Yeah but....

***"I would never come to the boards and say "Are all women drivers really that bad?". "

...have you ever noticed that depending on what that other driver does (regardless of whether it is stupid, or selfish or reckless or actually very considerate and smart) you can predict that person gender with...hmmm...yeah, I'd say Rozii is dead on....about 80% accuracy?

I've played this game with GG for some time now...something will happen and I will say "that's a teenage kid (implying boy) behaind the wheel of that car" or "that's an old lady" or "that's a soccar mom on a cell phone".

The only category that gives me trouble are teenage girls, who have become just as aggressive and stupid as teenage boys, though I have to admit that there seems to be an additonal mindlessness at play as well (meaning that while teenage boys tend to do stupid things with an agressive streak that shows purpose...typically selfish gain...for teenage girls it seems to be stupid things of an agressive nature, but driven more by "I just don't know anybetter and don't care" sentiment...)

Am I the only person who has observed this?

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sun, 08-31-2003 - 1:14pm
You sound like a lady who is frustrated because A MAN'S REACTIONS AREN'T SIMILAR TO THOSE OF A WOMANS.

And you know what? They NEVER will be!

So you have the choice of:

a. Hanging out with the girls and skipping the dating scene altogether

b. Becoming a nun and not being subjected to no return phone calls or emails (or)

c. Making an effort to put up with our bad points (and embrace our good ones) as most of us try to do with you.

Pianoguy (who is starting to get tired of reading THIS SAME QUESTION on some of the message boards)

Avatar for northwestwanderer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sun, 08-31-2003 - 1:37pm
I'm sorry, but the excuse that "I'm a man so I'm inconsiderate, I can't help it" is just FEEBLE!

I know *plenty* of considerate men...and I'm sure it's not a coincidence that most of these men are IN relationships.

I always find it interesting that the same men who can't seem to call when they say they are going to, etc., have no problems being *completely* considerate to clients, etc. They are definitely *capable* of being considerate, they just choose not to be in the context of a relationship.

Sheri



Avatar for bearkizz
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-30-2003
Sun, 08-31-2003 - 4:19pm
I have a good friend, totally unreliable for many situations, but she is reliable in ways that other people I know aren't....Every relationship, familial, friendship or intimate, has checks and balances...sometimes it's hard to discern what those checks and balances are....other times it's a situation (for me anyway) where you have no choice but to trust that someone is the person you can't trust...LOL In other words, you don't expect much and aren't disappointed when you don't receive much...
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 09-01-2003 - 5:37pm
Sheri...

Your point is well-taken.....but I find that a man's inconsideration (or forgetfulness to do something) is often fodder for bashing. Look at the number of questions that use phrases like: "WHY WON'T HE CALL?" or "WHAT IS IT WITH THIS GUY?" They're from women who obviously expected responses. Now whether these responses were actually promised (or hypothetically promised) can open up a whole new series of arguments.

Granted...some men DEFINITELY treat their clients with more respect than their wives (or girlfriends)...but this certainly isn't the case with all of us. What puzzles me is why a woman can immediately take the position that a man is completely inconsiderate if he doesn't offer (or provide) a response or a reaction. Maybe some of us see the way a relationship is headed and feel better "bailing out" with an explanation? If the interest isn't honestly there, the LAST thing we need is to be accused of "leading a woman on!"

Here's a question:

If a man wasn't 100% sure about continuing a relationship...would you rather that he tell you outright? Or would you prefer that he not say anything? I'll open this one up to anybody reading this since each of us has a personal opinion.

Pianoguy

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-11-2003
Tue, 09-02-2003 - 4:14pm


It depends on the relationship.

A few years back I went on a handful of dates with a young man- I think four in total. I was pretty lukewarm about him and had accepted his requests for dates with the hope that my feeling towards him would heat up-my feeling didn't and his feelings for me probably hadn't heated up either. He stopped calling. I was non-plussed.

There was another young man who I was very smitten with, we talked on the phone every night-sometimes called each other at work, saw each other every weekend and became physically intimate. This went on for four months. He abruptly stopped calling. Two weeks later, I ran into him while he was out on a date with another woman (I guess she was the reason he stopped calling). I was devastated. Because of the time that I spent with guy number two and the fact that we were sleeping together- I felt that he should have contacted me and told me what was going on. Yes I would have been hurt if he had told me the truth, but it sure wouldn't have felt as humiliated as I did when I ran into him and his date.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 09-02-2003 - 6:26pm
During my days of internet dating, I went on a "first date" with a nice young lady, who I knew was dating someone else as well. We met, had dinner, and went our sepperate ways. The next day she called me up and said "I just wanted to let you know that I don't think we are compatible in a way I'm looking for. I enjoyed meeting you and had fun talking though."

What a fantastic courtesy! She let me know up front as soon as she decided. Not to pursue and not to make excuses. What a relief!!! It's an example I wish everyone would be kind enough to follow.

Naturally I was pleasant and thanked her for the call and the courtesy. No drama from me (though I *was* momentarily hurt to be dismissed on a single date). I really, really, appreciated her frankness. I got over my hurt feelings in about 10 minutes.

Brokk...

Avatar for northwestwanderer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 09-02-2003 - 6:32pm
I agree with ibonpoint's post...it depends. If we've only been out a couple of times, and he hasn't made any commitments to do things or told me how much he likes me, wants to see me again, etc., then no, a call telling me he's not interested in continuing isn't necessary...I can infer that from him not calling me again!

If we've gone out more than a couple of times, OR if he's said things that a reasonable person would take to mean he was interested in going out again (such as "I'll call you on Saturday so we can make plans"!), then yes, I would like to hear from him that he's no longer interested. Email/phone is ok if we haven't been seeing each other long or are not exclusive. If it's an exclusive relationship, then an in-person talk is necessary; breaking up with a bf/gf over the phone or by email is NOT cool, IMO.

But in any event, I think this is a little bit of a tangent from Go's original post, which is more along the lines of why does it seem to be so hard for so many men to do what they say they are going to do, and/or to have the courtesy to make a quick phone call if plans change or they get delayed. I'm not sure that "fear of leading someone on" is a good answer; it seems to me that saying you're going to call is leading someone on more than not saying anything, don't you think?

Sheri



Avatar for northwestwanderer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 09-02-2003 - 6:42pm
Oh, now, see, I would *hate, hate, hate* getting a call like that!!! I'd much rather infer from his not calling me that he wasn't interested than *hear* it! Plus, I find it a bit presumptious if a guy assumes that *I* would necessarily be interested in going out with him again (unless he's asked and I've said so), and finds it necessary to say he won't be asking me!

Because I hate receiving those calls/emails, I don't do it (on the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" theory), unless of course he calls and asks me out again. I'd also think it was presumptious of me to pre-emptively turn down an invitation for a second date that may or may not be forthcoming.

However, if I'd said I would go out with him again, and changed my mind, then *of course* I would let him know. That seems to be what happens most often in my experience: the man talks of a second date, says he'll call to arrange it, and then doesn't. That is definitely lacking in courtesy, IMO.

Sheri

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