Jumping thru Hoops for Men
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Jumping thru Hoops for Men
| Fri, 08-04-2006 - 12:54pm |
i just want to make a comment about this article ivillage has..questions women have about men and how to better understand them. why do women have to bend over backwards and then some just to please them?? granted we love our men but its not just about them. why do we not see men posting on the message boards on how to better understand women..why cant women commit,etc. its very frustrating! like we women are supposed to blame ourselves for a failed relationship/marriage. this is a 2way traffic! women have enough pressures as it is without having to add learning to be the perfect gf/wife. if a guy cheats, thats out of his own will. oh you say the girl is a nagger? well why didnt you break up with her first before you thought with your "other head"?? all im sayin is we women arent perfect either, we make mistakes, we can be very needy, dominating, too submissive, nagging all the time, lazy or whatever it is BUT we gotta stop trying to point the finger on what we women did or did not do. for men who cannot commit..thats their own problem, not us, not you great women out there. when women cheat, you dont see gazillions of pages of men wondering what went wrong, what he couldve done to make her stay.....
men should learn that women are emotional beings, a vast majority of us are in touch with our feelings. we love talking and yes,we do have our girlfriends to talk to as well...but if youre in a relationship, listen to your women! maybe if you actually listened instead of just hearing us "cluck" then maybe we wont have the need to keep mentioning it.
respect your women..shed those "macho" image once in awhile. dont be ashamed to tell her youlove her. with my case, my man finds it easier to tell me he thinks im a bitch rather than to tell me he loves me. he told me that i make it hard for him to love me coz i kept bitchin...well i told him, if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. instead of thinking you deserve to find a better gf or a better partner, maybe you need to regroup and fix yourself first before you judge your woman.
we love our men, we would climb mountains for y'all..but you gotta be deserving of it. start loving and appreciating your woman more and quit thinking about your "single bachelor days". lives change, people change. if being married or committed is not your cup of tea..please do not experiment and try to see if youll grow into it. nobody(man or woman) deserves to be hurt in that process.
just thought id say whats on my mind...
men should learn that women are emotional beings, a vast majority of us are in touch with our feelings. we love talking and yes,we do have our girlfriends to talk to as well...but if youre in a relationship, listen to your women! maybe if you actually listened instead of just hearing us "cluck" then maybe we wont have the need to keep mentioning it.
respect your women..shed those "macho" image once in awhile. dont be ashamed to tell her youlove her. with my case, my man finds it easier to tell me he thinks im a bitch rather than to tell me he loves me. he told me that i make it hard for him to love me coz i kept bitchin...well i told him, if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. instead of thinking you deserve to find a better gf or a better partner, maybe you need to regroup and fix yourself first before you judge your woman.
we love our men, we would climb mountains for y'all..but you gotta be deserving of it. start loving and appreciating your woman more and quit thinking about your "single bachelor days". lives change, people change. if being married or committed is not your cup of tea..please do not experiment and try to see if youll grow into it. nobody(man or woman) deserves to be hurt in that process.
just thought id say whats on my mind...

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It is, as you said, a two way street.
And it really begins with both people understanding who they are and what they need as individuals and then creating an environment where both people feel safe to express that.
It's great that women do often look at themselves for what they could be doing differently and what they cna do to make things better. But it shouldn't be about making things better for a man it should be about making things better for herself, not about being slef-sacraficing for a man.
And you're absolutely right men should do the very same thing. Though I've come to accept that, at least with my husband, it sometimes requires a little gentle proding from me to get the self-evaluation rolling.
If the man your with is telling you that your a bitch, why do you stay with him? I mena okay, if it slips out on very rare occassion in anger I might tolerate it; but, if it happens on a regualr basis you might need to evaluate where you are and why you stay there?
my man(although hes FAR from perfect..and so am i) understands that i wouldnt tolerate him walking all over me. i dont believe hes capable of doing it(hes such a loving man)BUT he has friends that try to influence him(coz theyre all single) and make him feel like he's in prison. he complains to me that i bitch (and i do!) a lot..and i try to limit it if not eliminate it. im not afraid or even hesitant to express what i feel or to tell him how i feel. hes the opposite. we have our problems, we have had a lot of ups and downs but i guess the one thing i learned is were all responsible for our actions. if your relationship is worth it, GO FOR IT! make it work but only to a point where you dont compromise your values and self. sometimes they portray women to be these desperate individuals just hunting for a man to marry..needy individuals who want to smother their partners. i believe that were not..we just want to hold our family together, care for their kids, run the household and have a career too. in my opinion, its the men that need to be asking the question "how to keep my woman happy"....
I agree, mostly. I don't actually think women should *stop* working on making their relationships better. If a relationship is a 50/50 two-way street, then half of everything is on the woman in the relationship, and she needs to deal with her half.
But I *do* agree that it is most definitely NOT all on the women. That other half is on the man in the relationship, and he needs to deal with it.
I got lucky--my husband agrees with us. ;-) He is an active participant in our relationship, and he's both willing and able to look his own shortcomings square in the eye and work on improving himself in order to improve our relationship. We work together to keep our marriage strong and happy. It's nice--I truly feel like I have a partner in life. I don't think he's ever called me a b****, but he tells me he loves me almost every day.
If your bf calls you a bitch all the time, yet has trouble telling you he loves you...er, that's not good. What makes him worth staying with, if anything?
--fc
it disheartened me to read stuff all the time onhow women can improve themselves so theyll be able to keep their man...wear this type of clothes, wear only this much make up, talk only this much. we women are not robots to be programmed. it hurts me because ive been there and it took so much out of me. i feel im just starting to recover and i would hate for anyone to feel the way i did. we should be loved and appreciated for who we are. even the men gotta admit that life would be nothing without us women! they should be grateful we put up with their immaturities and imperfections.
i should end this before i REALLY start sounding like a man-hater.....coz im not. I love 'em! :)
I totally agree and there are men who do and sometimes if you find yourself with one that isn't that way they can be "trained" to be.
I hate to call it that; but, it's almost what it comes down to. Of course, that does require effort on the woman's part again; but, at least, theres a chance for a pay off in the end int hat case. :)
"make it work but only to a point where you dont compromise your values and self."
I think that's the most important thing to remember, because martyring yourself and being self-sacraficing is a recipe for disaster in a relationship.
I go on many boards here. I am amazed over and over the advice given to women BY OTHER WOMEN. On one board a woman was concerned because she had a new baby and her and her husband seemed disconnected. There was all kinds of advice on what she could do to make him feel more special-sending him little emails, special meals, cards, just giving him a blow job every now and then. What about what the husband needed to do to build intimacy in their relationship? Zip, zero, nada. The poor man feels neglected because wifey is taking care of HIS child? I don't get it.
I really think women, including their mothers, need to hold men to a much higher standard than they do instead of "bending over backwards" to give them constant strokes and ego building. Even on this board there was a woman with a 4 month old baby who had gotten back down to a SIZE 9! and her husband didn't want to have sex with her until she was a six. What a joke of manhood.
A relationship IS a 2 way street. It IS up to the man to build intimacy, be respectful, encouraging and loving towards his partner as well as hers.
I agree with you though that the media really dumps it on the women.
Have you ever noticed how fat the guys are that wear the "No fat chicks" t shirts?
I remember an ex of mine telling his sister who worked 60 hours a week, did all the cooking and cleaning for her husband and three boys, and took classes, that "maybe you should think of doing some aerobics" because she had gained weight while he had gone from a 32 waist to a 38 in a year. Geeze.
My ex husband called me "Bitch" so much before I divorced him I just thought it was my name. That or "The Redhead" his code word for bitch in mixed company. After 2 years of telling him if things didn't change it would be over he acted completely shocked when I kicked him out and filed for divorce. He acted like it was completely out of the blue and I was not even giving him a chance to change (were we in the same marriage?) My partner now is very loving and respectful. I truly admire him because he was diagnosed last year with bipolar and he is doing everything in his power to manage his disease AND have a good family life. I could not begin to name the sweet things he has done JUST IN THE LAST MONTH! that shows he cares and loves me and dd, that shows he really pays attention to what I say and how I feel. But in a way he has grown into this and it wasn't how he always was, partly because of his disease. The difference between him and other men I have known is that he would truly regret the negative things and would make an effort to change. He would face an issue that came up instead of pointing the finger of blame. He decided I was worth it and he'd better pay attention. LOL.
At the risk of repeating myself I believe women need to hold their men to a higher standard, out the gate. They need to be unwilling to settle for less than the best they deserve. They need to be able to tell their man "You are better than this" and require them to do better. They also need to be willing to kick a guy to the curb that is treating them badly. I think a lot of women get caught up in the romance novel beleif that their love will change him but if they are older than 16 they are probably fairly set in their ways and beleifs.
There are good guys out there that need a little "training" and WANT to be good guys. But women need to be up front about what they expect and need from their guys. They don't have crystal balls and can be kind of oblivious. If there is an issue bring it up. If there is a need not being met bring it up. A lot of times a guy won't change until he has no other choice. But women play the if he loved me he would be different game a little more than I like.
Communication is so important from both sides. But one should never accept unacceptable behavior from their partner. Name calling is unacceptable behavior in my book. When a man becomes a partner, husband, or parent his life changes. If he isn't willing to adjust to that change then he shouldn't make that commitment in the first place.
As a man, I'll take the risk of wading into this discussion. Please note that I will likely use some vast generalizations to simplify writing.
I firmly believe there are three main concepts that contribute to a great relationship. All three of these concepts are owned by both people.
1 - Great relationships are equality-based and mutually-beneficial. You're both equals in this relationship. Your wants, needs and expectations are of equal value and equal priority as your partner. The real key is to keep them fair and reasonable and to clearly disclose what they are. If I don't know what you want and need, it is pretty hard for me to have a chance of success at making it happen. Many times on iVillage boards I see women making the statement of - He didn't do , therefore he doesn't care about me or love me. Frankly, that statement is a bold face lie. Both people need to step up and consider each other's wants, needs and expectations from an equality position.
2 - The Relationship Bucket. There are three parts to a relationship. You, Me and The Relationship Bucket. This third entity is wrapped around the idea that we should add value for the better good of the relationship so that both people can enjoy. It seems like many people have become highly selfish and self-centered. Many times, it is more important what they can get from the relationship rather than what adds value to the relationship. If one person is constantly taking from The Relationship Bucket, it doesn't take long for it to become empty.
3 - Positive action & communication MUST be greater than negative action & communication. People are often very quick to let their partner know what they did wrong and that they are to blame. There can be a lot of nagging, complaining and even name calling. Every time you do this it is like chipping away at the Berlin Wall. Sooner or later the wall is going to crumble and there will be nothing left. Every person wants to know they are accepted, appreciated and admired. We all need to invest time through positive actions and communication to show that. That is the only way that the Berlin wall is going to stand tall and firm. Many times on iVillage boards I see women with an insatiable need to make men wrong. We all need to improve on positive communication with our partners.
In closing I'll offer an analogy around what I would call silent expectations. Let's say you go to work tomorrow and your boss tells you - We have a new set of expectations of you for doing your job. We are not going to tell you anything about them. However, you are 100% accountable to meeting all of these expectations. If you don't meet these silent expectations, we reserve the right to complain about you and call you harsh names. If you continue to not achieve these silent expectations, then we reserve the right to fire you at any time.
That analogy above is an approach many people seem to use in relationships. Relationships are just like jobs as they need to include known expectations and committed work for them to be successful. What doesn't work is treating your partner like a hunk of clay that you get to beat and whip into the shape you demand and expect. It starts with acceptance and appreciation.
i am in aggreement that every case is different. there are some relationship that go the other way around. and thats when the woman is the so called "abuser"(for a lack of a better way to say it) i know of some women who treat their man like crap and the man go thru the hoops to please their woman.
but i guess what i got so frustrated about is the fact that women are so often portrayed as these desperate individuals who have no minds of their own. like we were raised to get married, stay at home and just cater to the husband who works for a living. it sounds to me like a scene in a flintstone movie. we always get "boxed" as the ones trying to snare the man to propose, commit. and the men are all running away from the women. its utterly ridiculous! if some women love the idea of being married, i dont think its because were desperate, or the "clock" is ticking, or were so afraid to be alone. NOT!! we love the idea of family, commitment,and the "finality" of marriage. its taking the relationship to the highest level. if anything, men should adapt that kind of attitude,then maybe the relationship issue wont be so complicated. :)
women love to look good. we love dressingup...its hardwired in our brains. BUT the excessiveness of the situation comes from society. the need to be the thinnest, to have the prettiest hair, teeth, feet,etc,etc. i would site one example. when those dove billboards came out with very beautiful,very "normal", everyday women in their underwear...the reaction from the men was astounding. it went from "if i wanted to see big women, i would just go to a buffet restaurant", or "that billboard would be the death of me when im driving to work, this has shattered my conception of sexy,beautiful women in magazines and billboards","billboards are supposed to fulfill men's fantasy to look at gorgeous,skinny women in underwear" just to name a few. as crude as this sounds, it is a fact. women go thru breast lifts,breast augmentations, silicones, butt implants, liposuction, tummy tuck all the time. why? trying to fulfill the men's so-called "fantasy". what do you think would happen if women held you guys in the same regard? do you relaize how many men would go bankrupt trying to get lipo, trying to laser remove facial hair, trying to wax.....but we dont. majority of the time, we love our man as they are. you do get beer bellies, dont dress nice anymore, but we stick by our man. and if God forbid women fail to lose the last 10-15 lbs of post baby fat, we wouldve been told to lose weight, told we still look preganant. hundreds of magazines telling us women how to lose those post baby flab. why cant we just bask in the glory of just "pushing" out a human being in this world and congratulated for it? instead of being under the gun to look the way we did before the baby.
its time men jumped in the wagon with us fellow women to love and "honor" the very beings that underwent all the pain to get you out in this world.
if you want "perfect" women, who will look the same regardless of time....go out and get a lifesize doll.
An example is a tv commercial for Jenny Carig or something where the woman says "After I had my baby I was size 10!" as if she were the blob.
A lot of this is our media culture and because men have been inundated with this from childhood they think that this .05% of the wommen are representative of what ALL women should look like. Noone is saying that after a woman has a baby she will NEVER have a maidens hips again, that most likely there will be strtch marks, if she chooses to breastfeed, which is the best thing for her child, her breasts will change. There was a time when the fertility godess body was considered blessed and the power of a woman giving birth was considered awesome.
I also think mens point of view of womens bodies varies man to man and regionally. My nephew who grew up in Southern California looking at fake boobs and lifted butts on the beach consider perfectly healthy women with J-Lo butts "fat" and the neighborhood anorexic with a boob job who looks like she can barely lift her twiggy arm a "hottie". I have another nephew, raised in Oklahoma by his mom and two sisters who "loves women with some meat on their bones" and feels "greatful that women even let him see them naked and touch their bodies". He is also very happily married and gets up nights to take care of his babies and lets his wife sleep because he knows his wifes job is "24/7" and he really wouldn't want to do it full time himself.
Marilyn Monroe was a size 14. She would be considered fat by todays standards and laughed out of the agency. I do find that older men do accept a little more variety from women than the younger generation that grew up with Baywatch, Pam Anderson and Paris Hilton as ideals.
I think though that we agin get back to the media and hate to say this parents of sons. A parent should be raising a son/daughter explaining that this is not real. That women are deserving of respect. They have value even if they aren't a size zero with inflated, mutilated breasts. Their sons should be taught that women are deserving of respect for their intelligence, wit and charm not only as arm candy and to be any different is to be shallow. Daughters should be taught to never accept less than the best that they deserve and that they are beautiful in their uniqueness not by being a sheeple. Unfortunately many kids grow up with a mother constantly dieting and fighting the beauty that nature gave them. When we Americans go to some other countries we are considered too skinny.
I'm not sure we have the power to change to change the media. Consider this. The fashion industry is rampant with gay men and the female "ideal" of our country is the body of a boy with tits. If a woman were to have Barbies proportions she would have no internal organs.
I think men have the ability to rise up and be better. spiceman seems like a decent one. But it does seem that for every man that thinks this way there are 10, 20, 30 more that are very superficial. Statistics have shown that people today have a harder time creating intimacy with others, that people have fewer friends. I know I always want to tell the guys I know that are going onto Myspace and "can't find any decent women" to get off their computers, let go of the mouse and go downtown to the coffee house or gym and meet some REAL, warm bodied, living, breathing human beings that they might even have some chemistry with.
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