Methods of Torture

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Methods of Torture
23
Wed, 03-26-2003 - 2:35pm
Ok, I'm trying to be a bigger person so I'm going to post this little ditty in the interest of UOS without complainging even once about this silly new format. (Ok, that was once.)

I'm getting ready to go to school this afternoon and I have to get dressed for a fund raiser I'm going to immediately after. It's a casual atmosphere, but I still want to look great in case any, ahem, available young men are there. Here's the deal. We women pluck and paint and shove ourselves into corseted tops that would make a medieval torturer shudder with delight...not to mention the shoes that should probably be banned as cruel and inhuman punishment, and my big question here is does it matter? Do guys even care? I realize more often than not that most women are dressing to impress themselves or other women and most of the men I know can't tell the difference between my Nikes and my Kenneth Coles.

So, I open the topic to discussion. Enlighten me while I work up the courage to don the 4 inch heeled boots.

~Artie

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Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 03-26-2003 - 5:30pm
Title: Well, I think we could have agreed in advance that we don't go for the same type of women...

Actually, I don't think you need to spend $100/person to have a nice meal, though I don't think $100/person is outrageous (not to say it is a weekly thing for me either...maybe once every couple months...once a quarter). I also think most women would want to be taken some place nice on occassion no matter HOW good a cook their beau was...which is not at all to discount the appeal of having a man prepare a meal for a lady and prepare it well (it works for me...and NO, I don't mean having the meal prepared FOR me...smart alleck...lol)

Regarding the other stuff, yeah, we disagree, but our lives and the sort of women we would date are gonna be dramatically different on many, many levels. I, for example, would have NO USE WHATSOEVER for a 19 yo, except to look at. I wouldn't even want sex...the combination of lack of experience and my guilt would simply ruin it for me.

Insofar as drawing a distinction between "girls" and "women" however, I stand by my list, assuming she is able to play in that league in the first place (I don't hold against the women out there who can't AFFORD to shop for shoes someplace better than Payless, just those who could but don't...). Ladies, if you don't care about dating guys who only wear different versions of grudge plaid shirts, and think their computer is their best friend, then by all means, ignore everything I said.

ADDITONAL NOTE: It occurs to me that I might be wrong about Payless...their are two shoe chains I am thinking of...one sells REAL SHOES for less...I have NO problem with that..I get most of my stuff on sale as well. The other sells cheap shoes...knock offs that both look cheap and don't last (I have shoes that are 5+ years old...good shoes last, and can be reconditioned....the BEST shoes...like Allen Edmounds...last a lifetime).

Ok...GG reports that indeed Payless IS "el cheapo"...she says she has only shopped there once...out of desperation, because she was "stuck" downtown one day and needed some shoes to get around in between interviews / appointments, and didn't want to wear (and risk ruining) her nice shoes...so she brought a pair of loafers for $10...then trased them at the end of the day. I married the right woman...lol

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 03-26-2003 - 5:45pm
Title: Sounds like you squeak in to me!

I'm good with everything you listed (for example, your "real" dress doesn't HAVE to be a little black number, that's just what most women have...).

The beads are probably kewl too...you seem to "get it" when you mention that they smell better than "Designer Imposters". Few things in life are worse than cheap cologne / perfume.

Insofar as the shoes...well...if *I* were DH...we'd buy a little less jewelery (though some...I like to give the special ladies in my life jewelery as well...I can't wait until I get a job so I can add to GG's collection) and maybe get a few pairs of nice shoes. The sort that will go well with that power suit and couture dresses from Paris (I take it you were absent from female class the day of the lesson on how a cheap pair of shoes or cheap bag can just ruin a wonderful dress...).

Actually...the worn Coach purse makes for a really nice touch with the nice clean white t-shirt and jeans. Now you just need a new one to go with the suit. Again, if *I* were DH....

Oh yeah, that's right...I'm taken. So are you. Nevermind....

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 03-26-2003 - 8:09pm
OK, this whole thread has me giggling... prepare yourselves a cup of coffee or a nice glass of wine and settle in...

Artie- Dress for you. Only you. I should have stock in Victoria's Secret, even though nobody ever sees the damn stuff. It is all about me. Built the way I am, I can always always buy lingerie and it will look good/fit/make me feel sexy. Anyway, no matter what you wear, you will look ravishing if you like what you are wearing and know you look good.

FC- I have only seen pictures, but you wear your confidence well. That to me is much sexier than the list below.

Gogo- OK, I make the grade on your list, as below... but I know you and I were not meant to be. And, why don't I meet nice guys who do more than play PS2 and mountain bike???

1) Little black dress that she didn't wear to her prom

Check. Looks pretty good, too. Only worn once- to some iVillagers' wedding... ;o)

2) Suit that cost more than $99 (even on sale) and that your mother wouldn't be embarassed to be seen in (though she probably couldn't fit it)

I would probably never wear anything my mother would be seen in. But, Mom is a teacher, and I am a technology manager. I meet the suit criteria.

2) Pair of black pumps that didn't come from Payless. Not wanting to upset anyone, I am not a Payless fan. Don't own anything from Payless... and I like sexy shoes.

3) Purse that is made out of REAL leather . Check.

4) Pair of earrings made out of a REAL precious stone or metal. Do the platinum-diamond studs I bought myself for my 32nd birthday count? *wink*

5) Make up kit, even if only for special occassions, that didn't come from a drug store

I am a MAC girl, but don't wear makeup every day. I do know how to apply it... but the man who is out there for me will think I don't need to apply it all the time, or he will not be for me.

6) Perfume that didn't come from a drug store either. My scent of choice is Kenneth Cole for women. To quote one of my best friends (male) upon smelling it... "Yum."

But, all these answers do not amount to anything. Bottom line, a woman has to do what she does for Herself first- are you happy/comfortable with your looks/your body/the image you present to the world? If no, buying all the right accoutrements do nothing.

JMO...

Cher


Edited 3/27/2003 10:15:53 AM ET by soullm8

Avatar for mamma2my3sons
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 03-26-2003 - 11:10pm
You have to bait the trap Artie,if you hope to attract a man! LOL! Men are visual creatures. They DO care. There is a great deal of truth to what Gogo posted. . .. of course you also have to factor in your lifestyle and what kind of attention (& from what type of man) you're actually hoping for!

Personally these days I have most, *sigh*, not all the essentials on Gogo's list, being an at-home mom on a budget in a rural community. (The movie "Family Man" with Nicholas Cage comes to mind as a pretty accurate illustration of what happens once children arrive!)

I wear light makeup (drugstore) daily and my usual attire is jeans or overalls (Although I always dress appropriately for the occasion & did buy a new formal black dress for a party at Christmas). . .I have a lot of "good" jewelry (don't like anything costume)I wear low leather boots and good perfume. I don't have manicures or pedicures done anymore except on a rare occasion.

Don't actually own a purse, leather or otherwise, so does a Diaper Bag count?! LOL!

Hope you had a good time and "bagged" you a man! ;-)

Barbara


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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-27-2003 - 12:01am
Ohmigosh, Cher, I wear Kenneth Cole too, sometimes. Depends on my mood and my outfit. This was really sort of a fluff thread and one I started because I thought my ex might be at the benefit I was going to and I was stressing way too much about how I looked. As it turned out, he wasn't there, but his girlfriend was, and she pretty much dogged me all night until I left early. I thouht it was my imagination until I removed myself from the circle of mutual friends and she showed up at a table with *my* friends. Icky. I suppose I'm going to have to follow my own advice and steer clear of friends who might bring me into contact with either of them. Sucks that after so long I still feel like I swallowed a brick. Let's face it, he wouldn't want to be hanging out with A or M or "The new guy" (who has now been dumped, so I guess he's the old guy) or any of the rest of the alphabet soup either.

As for Gogo's list, I more than qualify as a woman, but if a guy cares that much about that sort of thing, he's probably not for me. I have an assortment from hiking boots to Steve Maddens in my closet each waiting patiently for their day in the sun. And I am by no way a price snob. If I like something I buy it whether it costs $12 or $120.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-27-2003 - 12:08am
Title: Wow, it appears I'm going to have to take issue with this "criteria"

>> If you can't answer affirmatively to each of these questions, and find yourself wondering either A) Why you can't meet any "nice" (ie "employed, with lives, who do something other than play PS2 and mountain bike) guys, or B)why your guy won't take you out anywhere "nice" (ie, doesn't make you stand in line for food, doesn't advertise on TV, and doesn't mail coupons to your home)...well...now you might have a bit more insight... <<

You know, Gogo, usually I respect your posts and your opinion, but this statement and your "list" really rubbed me the wrong way. I realize there's a chance I might be taking it a little too seriously, but I have to say what I have to say.

Whether or not I rate highly on your list has no bearing whatsoever on whether I am a "grown-up girl." I am a very classy and intelligent WOMAN, and I got that way because of the life I've lived and the experiences I've had.

A leather purse doesn't make a woman, and heels don't make a woman. The qualities that make a *woman* come from the inside - not this external garbage. This "list" is about what you like to see *on* a woman, but it does not *make* a woman.

Labels on clothing mean nothing to me. Brand of make-up means nothing to me. I do not care whether someone's shoes are Sergio Rossi or knockoffs from Famous Footwear. This is all window dressing. What should matter is the person inside. If you can't handle the fact that my mascara is Maybelline and not Elizabeth Arden, well then... too bad for you.

To me, some of the items on your list are superfluous.

For the record, I only answered "yes" to a few of your questions, and *somehow* I've managed to find a very wonderful, professional, employed man who has no qualms about being seen with me. Will wonders never cease.

This is all, of course, just my opinion.

As for the original question... I dress for myself. If I feel good about the way I look, then it shows, and my SO feels good about it, too.

- Gina

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-27-2003 - 6:40am
Title: Yeah, you did take it too seriously, but I don't disagree with what you are saying...

Artie question was if men notice...not as to whether or not these things were important. My response was "yes, they do...at least the guys I know".

Now, I did post with the intent being somewhat tongue in cheek, but also sort of "pointing" towards those women who might be in transition...say...going from their college years to their young professional years, and perhaps wondering how to make the transition from attracting over grown college guys, to men who are in the next stage of their lives, professionally and emotionally.

OF COURSE "things" don't make you a woman...and I tried to explain as much in my follow up post (boy, I hate this new format so far...I suspect it would have been more obvious that I HAD a follow up post in the old format). At the same time...while I am happy for you, I think MOST guys...and MOST women would agree that by the time you hit 37, you should have some of the "accessories" of adulthood. Again, it isn't so much about the things themselves, it is about an attitude / approach toward life. For example...are you still so hung up on being "yourself" that you would hold back your SigOs career because you aren't prepared to dress appropriately for a company function? Are you still so head strong that you feel any man in your life just has to accept you "as you are"...that on occassion "cleaning up" just because you know he will like it somehow is a repression of your identity?

I also was thinking of all the posts I have read throug the years regard "why doesn't my guy take me / do for me / dress like". My thoughts simply were...have you given him reason to?

I guess it depends on the world you operate in. In MY world...regardless of how you normally dress on weekends or whatever...if you aren't prepared to be TAKEN SERIOUSLY...you won't be. I suppose if your academic or something of that sort, the shoes you wear or the clothes you wear don't matter. In MY world, on occassion, they do.

For different reasons, this applies to the social / personal world as well. Most of the guys I know aren't looking for a high maintence woman...I'm sure not. So...a woman OBSESSES with her appearance or labels would be a non starter.

But I still stand by the premise that MOST guys want to know that the woman in their life CAN "clean up good" as another poster described it. That they DO know quality when they see it. That they UNDERSTAND the value of having a few nice things versus a bunch of cheap BS.

Also...because I couple posters have mentioned it...someone explain to me this notion of "I dress for myself". Does this mean you don't care about what your SigO thinks in regards to your appearence? That you expect him to like whatever you like...that you don't solict his feedback. That you've never put on something because you knew it flattered you in ways that he would appreciate.

I know *I* "clean up" for my SigO on occassion, just to please her (and yes, sometimes I "clean up" just to please me). I wouldn't want to be with a woman who felt this was beneth them. Sounds pretty selfish to me...but maybe I am misunderstanding.

In closing...I still stand by my post...it would be MY expectation...and the expectation most of the guys I know as well...that any woman in their life be prepared to dress appropriately for the occassion. Without getting too much into the specifics (I mean, I have no idea if there is really a difference between Maybelline and Elizabeth Arden...I din't have brands in mind when I made the statement...I just know that 69 cent lipstick from the Walgreens discount counter LOOKS like 69 cent lipstick from the Walgreens discount counter...*I* can tell...) a WOMAN she be prepared to dress like a WOMAN, when the occassion calls for it. A good suit for the interview of a lifetime. A nice dress, shoes and bag, for a special night on the town when you want to look your best. Nice perfume, because frankly, cheap perfume stinks. Nice make up for similar reasons (again...without getting into specific...I don't BUY the stufff people..I just know garbage when I see it).

Now if some of you ladies have manged to live your entire lives happy without these things, good for you. And if you having a loving SigO, even better. These are of course the things in life that really matter.

But that doesn't change MHO one bit. If you claim to be a woman (or maybe I should say "Lady"...is THAT the problem here?), you should be prepared to dress like one (assuming you can afford it). Do something with your money besides spend it in The Gap on over priced T-shirts and blue jeans. GENTLEMEN notice these things...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-27-2003 - 8:08am
Since we don't really have a hierarchy of threads anymore, I predict more quoting will be needed, to keep responses in context.

"Title: Well, I think we could have agreed in advance that we don't go for the same type of women..."

However, I think both of our wives are classy, and for the most part Rozi can say yes (and then some) to almost everything on your list. She doesn't really "do" makeup. I prefer that actually. She's like FC in that respect, and won't drop a ton of dough on something she doesn't use. However, she doesn't use the cheap stuff either. The crack about holloween makeup, is because she's done a ton of theatre work in her life, so she has makeup slanted in that direction. Not exactly intended to be "tasteful".

"Regarding the other stuff, yeah, we disagree, but our lives and the sort of women we would date are gonna be dramatically different on many, many levels. I, for example, would have NO USE WHATSOEVER for a 19 yo, except to look at. I wouldn't even want sex...the combination of lack of experience and my guilt would simply ruin it for me."

To me it depends on the 19 yo. Everyone is an individual. Although if I were still out there "dating" on a regular basis, I would not *look* for a 19 yo, because I don't tend to find them to be a good match for me at this point in my life.

"Ladies, if you don't care about dating guys who only wear different versions of grudge plaid shirts, and think their computer is their best friend, then by all means, ignore everything I said."

Come now... that's not fair. I don't even *own* a plaid shirt, and I have far better friends than my computer. I mostly use computers because I work with them. I also play games on them, when I can find the time in my busy life. I do many other things as you well know...

"Ok...GG reports that indeed Payless IS "el cheapo"...she says she has only shopped there once...out of desperation, because she was "stuck" downtown one day and needed some shoes to get around in between interviews / appointments, and didn't want to wear (and risk ruining) her nice shoes...so she brought a pair of loafers for $10...then trased them at the end of the day. I married the right woman...lol"

(snicker)

Yup, payless sells them cheap, and disposable. I buy a comfy pair of shoes from them, that I wear every day for 1 year then I've worn through them and toss them out. Yes, I have "good shoes" as well. However, I don't find them as comfortable as these slip-on things that payless sells. Rozi likes to shop there for a pair of shoes she's only going to wear once/twice. Cheap and disposable. Rozi also has plenty of expesive shoes. She's actually a bit of a shoe hog. You should see all the boxes of shoes under our bed... :-)

My whole point, is that not every guy who's worthwhile to date, really cares about all that junk, or would notice the difference.

Brokk...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-27-2003 - 9:09am
Title: Well, based on this, I don't think we are actually that far apart...

"and for the most part Rozi can say yes (and then some) to almost everything on your list. She doesn't really "do" makeup. I prefer that actually. She's like FC in that respect, and won't drop a ton of dough on something she doesn't use. However, she doesn't use the cheap stuff either. "

Well, THAT was my point. I didn't mean to imply that every woman should be Ivana Trump. But the fact that Rozii CAN affirmatively check off those items speaks to my point...having a capacity for and appreciation of nice things when it comes to ones appearance I think is important for a woman, and is the sort of thing MOST men (who aren't dweebs, slackers or losers) appreciate in a woman. If said woman's day to day persona is pretty laid back, that is fine. So is GGs...she LOVES to just hang out in her Gap stuff...those who know her well know that she drops MAJOR coin in that place. But she has the ability...the capacity...the willingness and desire to take it up a notch when the circumstance requires, or sometimes just because she wants to look good for her man (you know...me...). THAT **I** think is a characteristic MOST guys think is important...that is all I am trying to say.

"Come now... that's not fair. I don't even *own* a plaid shirt, and I have far better friends than my computer. "

No, it wasn't fair...it was supposed to be somewhat tongue in cheek, but still to my point. If / when women complain about always ending up with the same sort of guys...do they ever consider that they might not be taking the steps to attract a DIFFERENT type of guy? Of course that entails a HOST of things having noting to do with appearance...that goes without saying. But Artie didn't ask about those things...she asked if guy notice the effort women put into their appearance. And my point was...and still is...that a more mature (older, more life experienced, not necessarily emotionally), more accomplished (professionally, assuming that profession is mainstream, versus the arts or something along those lines) "classier" guy will.

Just to continue to set the tone, people who know me know that I resist having to wear anything more "rigid" than a pair of dockers and a golf shirt. "Business Casual" was INVENTED for me baby! I'm not as "uptight" as the impression I might be giving. But I still own some REAL suits...REAL sport coats...REAL shoes (even though I prefer my very worn boat loafers that the wife keeps trying to toss out) because sometimes life requires these things. And MOST women understand that, and accessories their closet accordingly. And MOST men appreciate a woman that does. To me, it is just part of being grown up...being PREPARED to go to a meeting, or make a good impression, should / when the occassion calls for it.

It could be the audience here as well...maybe for the most part they differ from the women I have known over time...because several different women over the years have told me how one of the first things they check out on a guy is his shoes...because cheap shoes tells them VOLUMES about the guy and how he leads his life. I agree personally...assuming it isn't a totally casual setting (like the beach). The same goes formost guys in regarding to sizing up women...if you just look like a boy with breast...with no effort put into your appearance...(sigh)

Well...this round of horse beating is over. We can agree to disagree. But my answer to Artie's question remains the same...RIM guys care....if to different degrees.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-27-2003 - 10:01am
"Title: Well, based on this, I don't think we are actually that far apart..."

I didn't think we are. I think the biggest point we differ, is not whether women should own those things, but whether guyes really care. You say they do, I say they don't. The real answer is probably the first one that Artie got. Some do, some don't.

"having a capacity for and appreciation of nice things when it comes to ones appearance I think is important for a woman, and is the sort of thing MOST men (who aren't dweebs, slackers or losers) appreciate in a woman."

Tsk, tsk... You're taking the low road again.

"If / when women complain about always ending up with the same sort of guys...do they ever consider that they might not be taking the steps to attract a DIFFERENT type of guy?"

Now that, we can 100% agree on. Of course, it's not just about what you own and how you dress, but also where you look for guys and what you look for. Your list is just one small part of the much bigger picture.

"Artie didn't ask about those things...she asked if guy notice the effort women put into their appearance. And my point was...and still is...that a more mature (older, more life experienced, not necessarily emotionally), more accomplished (professionally, assuming that profession is mainstream, versus the arts or something along those lines) "classier" guy will."

If you drop "classier" from that statement, I'm with you 100%. An older, stodgier guy :-) will appreciate those things much more, and have call for them to be used.

"To me, it is just part of being grown up...being PREPARED to go to a meeting, or make a good impression, should / when the occassion calls for it."

I would say that happy couple needs to be flexible in how they dress. It should reflect their needs. A woman *or* man, should not balk at dressing up for something that needs to be dressed up for. I've known plenty of men who need a gun to their head before they will wear a tie, got forbid a jacket... That said, they should also not be judged on what they have in their closet.

"It could be the audience here as well...maybe for the most part they differ from the women I have known over time...because several different women over the years have told me how one of the first things they check out on a guy is his shoes...because cheap shoes tells them VOLUMES about the guy and how he leads his life."

...and someone who's going to judge me based on my shoes, is not someone I would want to date. So it's best if I wear a cheap pair, so that neither of us get the wrong idea. We aren't a match from the word "go".

"Well...this round of horse beating is over. We can agree to disagree. But my answer to Artie's question remains the same...RIM guys care....if to different degrees."

Yeah, we'll agree to disagree on the basics. I think the first response to Artie hit the nail on the head. Some guys do, some guys don't. Although until GoGo responded, I didn't really think any heterosexual guy really did.

Brokk...