question and a request

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-04-2003
question and a request
27
Fri, 04-04-2003 - 8:03pm
A question and a request (unrelated).

I was reading John Gray's Mars and Venus on a Date (recommended by a friend). In the beginning, he is talking about male and female roles on a date. He talks about the Opening the Car Door situation. He claims it is counter-productive for the woman to unlock the man's door after getting in. He makes a big deal about it. He says in the book that single women don't understand this but married women do. I would like to know, if anyone agrees with him, and why or why not? Is he right? What is the dating wisdom that I am totally missing here.

The unrelated side: Bacl around the August through October issues of Cosmo, there was an article about women being the kind of girls guys digged by being low maintenance. I cannot find the article at the their website, nor does any of the local libraries carry it. If anyone knows which article I am talking about and can tell me where to find it, I would be most appreciative.

Thanks,

Ray

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 04-04-2003 - 9:18pm
I read that book some time ago and I remember having the same reaction about that particular point he "tries" to make. I always unlock the guy's door for him because it's the considerate thing to do. If he drives a big vehicle like a truck or SUV that makes it difficult to reach that far, where I'd have to struggle while he just stands there, then I don't. Gray didn't convince me of his logic, but I suppose he'd just say it's because I'm a single woman - LOL!

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 04-04-2003 - 9:32pm
No book has all the answers, and I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea of being placed in a "role" on a date. This does sound like something Dr. Gray would make a big deal out of, but I don't see why it matters. I'm not sure what makes it counterproductive. Is it because a guy has done something nice and if the girl does something nice, it evens the score? I think whatever you're personally comfortable with is fine regardless of what the "experts" say.

Good luck on finding the Cosmo article.

~Artie

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 04-05-2003 - 6:31am
Title: Is it just me...

Or does this sound like one of the DUMBEST things a person can worry about. I've heard repeated stories that "Dr. Gray" is actually not a doctor (or has a Ph.d from some diploma mill) and that he himself has been married multiple times. Some of the things I've read attributed to him make sense, but this is pretty stupid.

Besides...I'm I the only person who doesn't remember the last time he owned or drove a car that didn't unlock BOTH / ALL doors once one was unlocked? This is 2003, right?

GoGo...whose ***1992**** Pathfinder unlocked all the doors with a twist of a key...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Sat, 04-05-2003 - 12:43pm
Dr. Gray has the credentials to be called a doctor...he has his Ph.D...in, I believe, Theology. He was a priest for several years before leaving the church...this part concerns me regarding the practicality of much of his advice because he has not been practicing what he preaches. However, I do find a lot of what he says...especially in the area of history of man and woman...that is very helpful when wondering why two people in a relationship just can't seem to understand the other one. It's a good reference point, but it's not the bible on relationships.

I believe, not that I agree, with the counterproductivity of a girl helping to open the door of a guy after he opened her door. The politeness of opening the door for a woman is so she doesn't have to exert effort to open it herself. She may just sit down and voila...how nice. Now when she has to lean across the front seat to reach for his door latch and try to open it before he gets around to his side, it defeated the point of the woman not having to exert effort. It's harder to do that than to open her own door.

However, opening the door for a woman is more of a symbolic gesture of chivelry rather than a necessity. This practice was born out of assisting women onto horse carriages where they had to awkwardly try to step up onto a high step, lean forward to grab onto something, and try not to lose her balance. When the auto replaced the carriage, it still took effort to step up into the vehicle since the cars rode higher than they do today. There was a very appreciated need for the man to help the woman into the carriage or early model cars and a dude who didn't help was a realy bum. Today, the doors take no energy to open up. My 5-year-old can open up the doors on our Volvo, and those are pretty heavy in relation to my wifes Chevy Prizm.

Now since I make my wife carry all of the groceries out of the store, through the parking lot, all the way to the car...she appreciates it when I press the button on the remote and the trunk flies open...this way she doesn't have to put them down before she has to stack them in the trunk. This way, I can start the car and put on my favorite radio station before she can get in.

As far as a date where she might lean over to open my door...I usually wouldn't give her the chance since I'd just immediately get her in the back seat...hey, I bought her dinner first...and this way we wouldn't have to figure out whose place to go to before I dropped her off. Next time you go to White Castle...give it a try.

Curtis

P.S. So the last two paragraphs really aren't true. Hope I didn't upset anybody. ;-)

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-28-2003
Sat, 04-05-2003 - 6:01pm
My parents just bought some fancy British SUV and it is quite a struggle for me to get into it. The step is very high up, and I am only 5' tall, and the door doesn't open very wide. Getting out is quite an event too, with my dress sliding up my legs as I try to slide off the seat and onto the ground waaaay down below. I hate that vehicle!!!! (but hey, I guess it makes them feel young and with-it...WHATEVER!!!) As far as Gray's advice about unlocking the car door, I think of it as one of his personal pet peeves. In one of his other books he goes on and on about why a woman should use the word "would" instead of "could" when asking a man to do something (as in "Would you take out the garbage?").I can't imagine 100 million American men being as hung up on this word as he is. Iri
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 04-05-2003 - 6:46pm
"In one of his other books he goes on and on about why a woman should use the word "would" instead of "could" when asking a man to do something (as in "Would you take out the garbage?")."

Tell me your kidding!!! What a moron....I didn't have tons of respect for the man before (being married multiple times disqualifies you as an expert on maintaining relationships, in my opinion), but some of what I've heard he espouses did make sense.

But this...man...I guess all the Dr. Gray bashing I had seen on this board in the past was pretty justified.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Sat, 04-05-2003 - 10:26pm
Well...let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. This guy has given some very very good advice and sheds some light on areas that I believe any guy would want his SO to hear, and vice versa. According to his bio:



BIOGRAPHY:

John Gray, Ph.D., is the author of Mars and Venus on a Date, a follow-up to his phenomenal bestselling book Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, which has sold more than 6 million copies in the United States and millions more in 40 languages around the world. Gray is also the author of the bestselling Mars and Venus in the Bedroom, Mars and Venus Together Forever,  Men, Women and Relationships, What Your Mother Couldn't Tell You and Your Father Didn't Know, the recently published Mars and Venus in Love, and the star of a new CD-ROM version of Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus.

An internationally regarded expert in the field of communication, relationships and personal growth, Dr. Gray's focus is assisting men and women in understanding, respecting and appreciating their differences. Over the past quarter century he has conducted public and private seminars with a total of more than a million participants. In his highly acclaimed books and in his popular weekend seminar, "Men, Women and Relationships," Gray entertains and inspires his audiences with practical insights and easy-to-use techniques that they can apply to enrich their relationships immediately.  

Gray is happily married to Bonnie Gray and has three daughters -- Laren, Julie and Shannon. He not only understands first-hand the principles of successful marriage, he's also experienced the serious problems that can trouble any union, having previously married and divorced.

Gray lived as a monk for nine years, which helped him to learn about solitude and serenity. He studied for many years with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and received both his B.A. and his M.A. in Creative Intelligence from Maharishi European Research University. In 1982 received his doctorate in psychology and human sexuality from Columbia Pacific University.

Does every words he say make sense? Absolutely not. Because of that should everything he say be discarded? Absolutely not. Remember that Abraham Lincoln failed seven times while running for political offices, yet he's not viewed as a political failure. Babe Ruth struck out more times than any other player in history, yet he's not viewed as a failure. There are reformed convicts and reformed drug addicts who make a tremendously positive impact when talking to people about obeying the laws or not getting involved with drugs...because they've seen and lived it. Marriage is another step in a relationship. Is someone who has had 20 girlfriends/boyfriends whom they have become involved with and broken up with more qualified to give advice than someone whom has been involved with 10, but married to two of them? If a lesson wasn't learned, you wouldn't know that you failed. The lessons learned and shared by someone, IMO, make them a little more credible than someone who has never failed. As Jack Welch said, "If you haven't failed, you haven't tried hard enough to succeed". One of my favorite lines from a song is Billy Joel's Pressure, "Now here you are with your faith and your Peter Pan advice. You have no scars on your face and you can't respond to pressure."

I don't think you have to go out and buy a John Gray book, but if you check an audio book out at the library, I think you'll find yourself thinking even if everything he says isn't right on, most people would really benefit by listening to what he says.

Curtis

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sun, 04-06-2003 - 12:00am
Maybe. He still harps on some pretty ridiculous stuff. Would/could. This door opening issue. The rubberband and the cave theory. I'm sorry, but I'm a girl, and if I don't have time to decompress the people around me pay. This is not a male trait. It's an introvert trait.

I've read two of the esteemed Dr. Gray's books, and it just really left a bad taste in my mouth. He would join Dr. Laura and those two women who wrote "The Rules" if I was exiling people to a deserted island.

Somebody call Fox. I think I just invented a new reality show.

~Artie...who prefers the "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" guy.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-28-2003
Sun, 04-06-2003 - 9:16am
I wasn't meaning to bash Dr. Gray. I think he has some valuable advice to give. I just think once in a while he goes off onto a tangent and it's more about his personal likes and dislikes rather than being applicable to the entire human race. ArtemisOracle, I hear what you are saying. I am an intovert too, & let me tell you, I have a big ole cave and it's called "my apartment" he-he-he (I live alone). Estimates tell us that 75% of Americans are extraverts, though, so it's no wonder things are slanted toward them and their behavior & preferences. I wouldn't be surprized if Dr. Gray turned out to be an introvert with his "cave" theory. However, perhaps it is a huge strain & struggle for extraverted men to "be there" emotionally for their wives & children after they marry since they are not used to it. Iri
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sun, 04-06-2003 - 9:56am
Title: I gotta tell you, your cut and pasted advertisement for Dr. Gray notwithstanding, I remain very unimpressed.

A visit to the "Maharishi European Research University" website reveals it to be a university of less than 1,000 students that "was founded to create enlightenment for every individual and peace for the world. Its method for accomplishing this is Consciousness-Based SM education, which develops the total potential of every student’s brain, the cosmic creativity latent within every student." At the tune of $25,000/year in tuition and fees, plus an additional $5,000 a year in room and board.

The university seems to base its academic principals and general thrust around "...the foundation of Consciousness-Based education is practice of the Transcendental Meditation® and TM-Sidhi® programs, including Yogic Flying. " For those who don't know (I actually saw a documentary on this), "Yogic Flying" is the belief that, yes, people can fly through the use of yoga. No, the documentary crew did not find anyone who could actually perform this feat, though they did find a number of people who could hop around like bunnies. The sort of thing I suppose anyone could do with pratice and proper physical training.

Amongst the universities "International Board of Trustees" are six persons who it appears at first glance to not have college degrees. It also appears that they have donated a considerable some of money to the school however. Another 12 are graduates of the university that they now serve as a trustee of. I am sure this is an anecdotal coincidence.

Enough said on Dr. Gray's "B.A. and his M.A. in Creative Intelligence". I think those of us who attended more, oh, shall we say, "academically mainstream" universities can now formulate an educated opinion on the veracity of his collegiate education. Those who are less "main stream" in there thoughts on what makes for legitimate academia can as well...

Now, on the other hand, a "doctorate in psychology and human sexuality from Columbia Pacific University" actually sounds like it could be applicable. That was, until I read this:

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/News/cpu.html

And this:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/press_releases/2000113.htm

And this:

http://www.ptreyeslight.com/stories/dec30_99/ruling.html

Hmmm...I guess "Columbia Pacific University" isn't quite on par with that OTHER Columbia University. Though I suppose it could have been back in 1982 when MISTER Gray received his diploma through the mail.

I did also find this interesting comparison when doing my research:

http://www.psychotherapistresources.com/current/cgi/framemaker.cgi?mainframe=articles&subframe=twojohns

I think I'll just pass up that trip to the library, and stick with my former analysis. He is a successful hawker of books. He is no more qualified to provide counseling or relationship advice than any of us. Just like us, often times he is right. Just like us, his advice is based on is own opinion and perspective. Just like us, it should be taken with HUGE grains of salt.

In closing, I had never read a single word written by him before, and now I am proud to say so.

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