Why would he do this?? Please help.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Why would he do this?? Please help.
14
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 10:26am
First, I cannot tell you how much I hate the new board format… I just spent a half hour typing my story, and it just disappeared when there was an error posting it. I will now be copying and pasting from ms word.

Here’s the story: If this post is inappropriate, let me know and I’ll post somewhere else. I posted here because you guys know the story and you always have mature, well-thought out replies. Last night was the long awaited first real date with “Art Guy”. I went to his house and he cooked an amazing dinner. We talked for hours and realized just how much we have in common. After dinner, he suggested we watch a movie that we had talked about earlier. I agreed to stay for a while, so the lights were turned down and we sat next to each other on the couch.

Halfway through the movie, my hand brushing against his arm led to holding hands. That led to a very nice kiss. That led to passionate kissing. That led to really making out on the couch. I really like him so I’m not opposed to making out with him, but I am opposed to anything past that happening. When he tried to slip his hand down the back of my pants, I stopped him and we went back to kissing.

A few minutes later, he did it again, but I let him linger there (he wasn’t really doing anything bad- just touching the bare skin on my back with his hands, but I knew what would come next if I didn’t stop him), so I stopped him. Next, we laid down on the couch- him on top. We kissed, and then sat back up. Then we laid back down again- him on top. He tried to put his hand down my pants again. This time the front, and I stopped him very quickly, but he didn’t remove his hand. Maybe because we were still kissing while all of this was going on, but I said to stop, and he didn’t. Then I tried pulling his hand away, but he didn’t stop. I said please stop, and he didn’t. I now stop kissing him and pull back to look him in the eye and say stop. It now becomes a tug of war between him pushing down and me pulling away. I said stop again loudly and he now paused, and slowly stopped. For a moment there I thought that he was really going to rape me. Thankfully, he didn’t do anything. I’ve just always believed that you shouldn’t have to do something like that to get a guy to stop. When someone says no, it means no.

The weird part is that I don’t know how to feel about it. I definitely didn’t want that to happen, but I still like him and want to see him. Shortly after that whole incident, we calmed down and lightly kissed, I told him that I needed to drive home; he got me a bottled water from the kitchen and walked me outside. We kissed a moment, where things were still heated, but he clearly understood my boundaries. I’m just very confused. Should I be concerned about my safety with this guy? Do I make the judgment that he is now a potential rapist and never go out with him again, or do I give him the benefit of knowing that things did get a little out of hand from both parties, and give this thing a shot? Obviously, if we do go out again, I’ll make sure that we are in a different setting, and that we don’t end up in that situation again. Please help me out guys. I’m feeling very melancholy and confused.

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Avatar for northwestwanderer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 10:50am
I'm confused by your confusion!!! This guy has NO respect for you and your boundaries, yet you "like him"?

He obviously couldn't wait to get you to his house (didn't people warn you about that?) and sex is clearly at the top of his agenda. If you're just looking for a fling, great, but IMO that's the only place this will lead. In any event, I couldn't deal with someone who consistently disrespected my boundaries. In my experience, men who have respect for you have NO problem stopping when you ask them to and respecting boundaries.

Sheri

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 11:00am
I agree. No means "No". It should have to be shouted, and it shouldn't need a wrestling match to enforce it. You shouldn't need to defend yourself on a date.

I hate to jump to the word "rape", but I'm also uncomfortable with his ignoring your boundaries.

Let's focus on things you could do differently, rather than on him.

1) Keep in mind your territory. Take precautions. Don't get yourself into a scenario where you feel out of control.

2) Keep clear boundaries. Realize people will push them. Don't give in or budge on them. Don't let the heat of the moment get to you. When he went down the back of your pants, you stopped him. When he tried again, you should have stopped completely, pulled back and made it that much clearer. By allowing him the second time, you were "training him" that if he was persistant, you would give in. Thus he simply pushed harder when it came to the front of your pants, assuming you would just give in again. I'm not making excuses for him. I'm simply trying to explain basic behavior patterns.

I would not accept further dates at his place. I would also have a "talk" with him, outside of the dating context. Make it clear that he lost your trust when he didn't stop. That you no longer feel comfortable with him, and you need to back off a bit when on dates with him because of his actions. He needs to see the ramifications of his actions. He needs to see you being firm and clear about what you consider acceptable behavior. You need to set the pace.

Continue dating him if you choose. Just don't let the setting get so 'personal'. Keep things on your own territory and give him a chance to earn your trust, while not giving him a chance to break it again so easily.

Just my humble opinion...

Brokk...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 11:16am
Hi Pilates-

First of all, your post is not inappropriate.I have to say, though, that I believe your date's behavior was.

Here's how I look at it: You went to a man's house, and enjoyed his company. You had dinner together, and kissed. You were within your comfort zone all the way through passionate kissing/making out. Good for you!

Now, at some point, this man made a move that was outside of your comfort zone. "When he tried to slip his hand down the back of my pants, I stopped him."

That was once.

"A few minutes later, he did it again... so I stopped him."

Twice.

"He tried to put his hand down my pants again. This time the front, and I stopped him very quickly, but he didn’t remove his hand."

Three times, and then he didn't even remove his hand.


"Then I tried pulling his hand away, but he didn’t stop. I said please stop, and he didn’t. I now stop kissing him and pull back to look him in the eye and say stop. It now becomes a tug of war between him pushing down and me pulling away. I said stop again loudly and he now paused, and slowly stopped. "

Four, five, six, and on the seventh time you had to say stop loudly. In addition, for a moment, you feared for your safety. "For a moment there I thought that he was really going to rape me. Thankfully, he didn’t do anything."

THANKFULLY he didn't do anything?

Sweetie- this is not a man who has any respect for your boundaries. Let's just say, for a moment, that you go out with him again (Although, personally, I would not recommend it) and he behaves like a gentleman. He has been chastised, and you go somewhere innocuous... the date ends in a light kiss, with a hint of passion. Now, he asks you out again. You feel better... and you end up in the same *ahem* position as before. Do you really believe he will stop when you say no the first time? The second? How many times should you have to say stop?

This is a really important thing for you to realize: You are *not* obligated- EVER- to have sex with *anyone* no matter what the circumstances. If you and he were already intimate, and he pushed this way, he would not have the right. Certainly while investigating the viability and potential of a relationship, any man who violates your comfort zone and does not respect your wishes does NOT deserve a second chance just because he stopped... after SEVEN requests.

I recognize that you liked him. You had hopes. I am sorry it turned out this way, but really, can you like someone who clearly doesn't respect you?

Hugs-

Cher

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 12:01pm
Well, I think it's very responsible to take an objective review of this. Not just this situation as a particular incident...but this whole scenario and it's appropriateness based on your "intentions and desires". Because intentions mean nothing - actions are what gets you where you are and creates the situations you find yourself in.

First, you might review the "dating process" by your standards. If you're wanting to get to know someone and them you so that you have the ability to discern over time based on different situations and circumstances you find yourself in with them and know what is "safe" and what is not...you might consider limiting dating to really "dating". Getting to know one another in locations and situations where you're pursuing mutual interests, and being allowed to have long conversations...but not necessarily closed up in someone's apartment or house just because you're not living under mom and dad's roof and have to "follow their rules". That's dating. A time spent getting to know this person. Hear what they say - put your own assuptions and interpretations on it - and then reviewing after a variety of situations and circumstances if they "share your values, goals, and standards as evidenced by their actions"...not just based on your assumptions which are a product of their words.

For your own physical safety...obviously, it'd be wise to adopt a policy, rule, standard or requirement OF YOURSELF...meaning you enforce it by not getting into any sort of situation that violates it regarding the locations and types of situations you end up in with people while "just dating" prior to really accepting, admiring and respecting them as an individual based on their values and priorities and boundaries that they enforce for themselves. Not just because they have the hots for you and that makes you feel so wonderful. Not - you state it as a rule and then proceed by your own actions to 'push the rule" to the limits while expecting them to adhere just before going over the brink of the abyss.

Once you've established the mutual respect, you have an awareness of this person based on actions/words that are consistent in ways that you understand (aka - meets your standards)....if you both mutually want "more" in terms of physical interaction, emotional investment.....agree to that while having a full discussions regarding physical exclusivity and whether it involves commitment or emotional investment.

At that point, you're in "a relationship" and the appropriate parameters of that can be adopted. Sharing a bed, sharing a house unsupervised, etc. etc etc. At that point, you'll stop fearing for your safety and security while letting someone else determine your status.

That said.....about this particular situation. You did go to his house, agree to unchaperoned events, while engaging in passionate kissing and fondling. Being a woman, having done this "game"...and understand it for what it is, I implore you to read on and see if ANY of this applies. Women "want to be wanted"...yet they want to set the boundary. Often to "test" to see if he really wants you - they engage in lots of physical activity while having the unspoken, unstated boundary "there will be no sex". Given that is an uncommunicated line of non-penetration (no pun intended), they are then upset when he's pushing and perhaps groping and grasping more feverently while being pushed away "this time for real" - because the next step is "across the line". A line he didn't know existed via verbal communication, and a line none of your actual activity indicates exists at all, adn all the activity is being done with your consent.

So, whether you should anticipate that he'd push you further and further again the next go around....shouldn't be focused on. If you want to see him again - set the boundaries and parameters for doing so prior to agreeing to meet. Explain to him that YOU violated your own standards and boundaries and you understand his confusion about "what you wanted and intended" based on your actions. Women are generally the greatest "mixed signal givers" in the world...and thus they believe that lots of things are mixed signals that aren't in other situations. That you'd love to date, to get to know him and him you - upright, vertical, and in public settings while enjoying shared interests.....but not in dark rooms, cars, hallways, etc. until there is mutual admiration and respect for one another as individuals established per the assurance of a shared set of vlaues, standards, and methods of operation in life as a whole - in EVERY facet and venue, not just romance.

If he wants to date you on those terms....date him. But do NOT pursue dating him at this point. If he wants to date you - let him establish that desire so that you can then state the new parameters. IF he agrees, and you desire to do so - proceed forth under the new boundaries which YOU hold and which YOU are required to enforce no matter how much you "feel" differently at times during your interaction with him.

If he doesn't call...then you know he was after one thing, didn't get it, and is now moved on to someone else to pursue his true interest - casual sex with no obligation to a partner other than her pleasure at the moment. Since apparently that isn't your goal - if he doesn't call - you're better off not having wasted your time...and consider this a most valuable experience so that you don't repeat it more devastating situations in the future by learning from it and changing YOURSELF and your standards, your boundaries, and your thinking patterns and self-perception....because changing you is all you're in charge of anyway, and changing you guarantees you won't find yourself in similar circumstances again. You won't desire it.

Erin

quickblade14@hotmail.com



iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 12:55pm
Thank you so much everyone. A lot of what you said was right on target. My confusion stems from my feelings that his behavior was innapropriate, but at the same time, I can see that my behavior was innapropriate as well. I don't have the right to expect him to read my mind (know automatically my boundaries), and then get angry when he doesn't. I'm guessing that his "pressure" tactic may have worked on someone else before. Rest be assured that I will follow your advice: if we do go out again, it will be in a situation where I have more control and supervision. I will let him know how we need to back off things a bit until I can trust him more. And if he doesn't call me to go out again, or doesn't want to go out again after our little talk, then I can drop the whole issue and know that he WAS only after one thing, and know that he's not worth my time or effort. Thank you everyone again... I am certainly feeling less shaken and more level headed about the whole experience now.
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 1:05pm
Title: Boy...do I hate being right sometimes...

...but I went and read my 2nd post...the one with the meaningful advice...that was in response to your query from last week. I am sure you remember it, but for the benefit of others...

http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=iv-rlunderstand&msg=7195.6


Now...as I am sure you recall, one of the things I told you was that all of the signs he was sending (after you further explained the nature of his 4 attempted dates...which it turned out were not REALLY attempts at dates) seem to point to him not really wanting to invest a lot of time and / or effort into getting to now you...and that I consider that a warning sign of someone who was simply looking to get his bedpost notched. My advice at the time was to, frankly, make him jump through some hoops...that this might deter him if all he wanted was some fresh meat...and if he was really interested, since he was a lawyer and all, he should be sophisticated enough to not mind.

Well...you didn't take my advice, which is your prerogative, and he made a panty dive, which is what I predicted. Fortunately, you held on to them...LITERALLY...and you avoided being date raped.

Yes. DATE RAPED. Which is EXACTLY what you described. I know you don't like it...you don't think of yourself as the sort of gal who could be "date raped"...you really like him, he is so...whatever he is that has you so fascinated.

But think of it this way. Say you had been a little less strong...or a little more drunk...or a little less forthright. Say if you had been more of the shy type...or a tad more "needy / desperate". I get the impression that since you held him off for the 4 date attempts...since 12/2002...that you are a pretty strong woman emotionally...and that because you didn't go for the beach house thing, that your head is on pretty straight.

But what if you hadn't been you? What if you had been one of your friends...who is a bit less strong physically, emotionally?

Do you think he would have stopped? Review the events again...do you think your friend "Becky" could have stopped him?

He tried to rape you. As ugly as it sounds, that is what it was. He didn't succeed, but it wasn't for lack of trying. And no, he didn't try as hard as he COULD have...he didn't beat you up...but THAT is no reason to reward him with another opportunity.

Look...I have little to know clue how the female mind works. I have no idea why you still "like him". I think Cher has given some good feedback from a female perspective. And I think Brokk's feedback was very good as well...rational...and very true insofar as what did lead to the behaviors exhibited.

What I DO know are MEN. So...I am gonna tell you again where this is going. I am going to be direct only because I care about you, even though I don't know you. Also, because I think you need a punch in the nose, because this "I like him" thing is gonna get you in a world of hurt.

You are a bedpost notch. A piece of ass. He met you once, thought you were cute, thought you'd be worth some effort to pursue, so he did. Not worth the effort to SEDUCE, because he didn't want a relationship. But he figured if he could get you out with him, then back to his place, then in the sack, he'd be pleased with himself.

So he made 4 attempts to catch you when your guard was down, and he wasn’t busy bagging a different set of panties. To your credit, you resisted each time. So, he gave up.

Then...one day...he is going thru his phone book, and he decided..."what the hell...she did show up to my art show". And this time you took the bait.

He puts more effort into this time, because you are a more difficult species of animal than he usually hunts. So...this meant cooking the dinner (his prey typically LOVES that), turning on the charm, etc. But, when he was done baiting the hook, he assumed you'd swallow it (pun intended), so he made a panty dive...and was stunned when you didn't capitulate.

So...you are gonna get the FULL treatment now...offers you water...takes you home...gives you a goodnight kiss while he "respects your limits" (see...I can behave, I'm a good boy...that was "bad art guy" before...this is the real me...).

Look...pay attention. No guy who REALLY cares about you would do what he did. He'd be so scared of chasing you off. I'm not saying a guy he cared wouldn't put the moves on you...but on a FIRST DATE any guy who cared about you would really respect the FIRST stop sign. Because he doesn't want to give you ANY reason to not see him again.

This guy doesn't care. I know you "like him" for whatever reason, but you have to stop projecting your attraction for him into an interest on his part in you.

You ignored your gut instinct once by going over thee in the first place (remember, you first posted because it didn't seem right). You at one point were GENUINELY FRIGHTENED during your first date..."For a moment there I thought that he was really going to rape me. Thankfully, he didn’t do anything." Those are YOUR WORDS.

What will it take for you to realize this is NOT going to end happily ever after? This guy wants nothing from you but a good time.

Your biggest concern now is that he might be really stubborn. I have posted about how many guys...maybe even most guys...will, depending on the girl or circumstances, just decide they aren't going to give up until that bedpost is notched. That it becomes a mission...to bed the one that "got away". His looking you up again after 4 months REEKS of that...that he just isn't going to be happy knowing that you resisted his charms...and he'll do anything to get his "O-fer" with you off his scorecard. Pour on more charm...apologize for his behavior...hell, he might even arrange a real date...the sort where you PUT ON clothes versus taking them off.

Don't be a fool. Stay away from him. Next time he might not stop. Or...next time you might not want him to. And then how will you feel when he never returns your calls?

"Obviously, if we do go out again, I’ll make sure that we are in a different setting, and that we don’t end up in that situation again."

I don't know if you can trust yourself. I saw this coming...I believe YOU saw it coming as well...you just didn't want to believe it because you "like this guy". Can you trust yourself no not end up on your back again, literally fighting him off?

You have now been warned. I am sorry to come off so harsh, but you really sounded like you needed a punch in the nose.

Please take care of yourself.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 1:17pm
Title: Well, you beat me to the punch....

Your post beat my lengthy one by about ten minutes, so understand that if it comes across as too harsh, it is only because I feared that you weren't gonna "get it".

Still...IMHO...I would rule out EVER seeing this guy again, for the reasons I gave.

"I don't have the right to expect him to read my mind (know automatically my boundaries), and then get angry when he doesn't."

This is a rationalization, which is sort of what I was afraid of with Brokk's post. Like I said in mine, if a guy has a GENUINE interest in a woman, he might make a panty dive, but he pulls up at the first sign of trouble, for fear of a "crash and burn", resulting in a terminated date, never to followed by an additional one. This guy didn't pull up because he didn't care...he just wanted to get laid. And BTW, he didn't have to read your mind...you said stop...and if I read your post right...it wasn't that your were just reluctant and needed to be charmed and seduced...that "no" that really means "maybe". You told him "STOP", and removed his hand...more than once. He was clear...he just didn't care.

"I'm guessing that his "pressure" tactic may have worked on someone else before. "

It absolutely has...else he wouldn't use it. It has worked for many men on many women throughout time...women who weren't as strong as you to resist, physically or emotionally. We have a name for it...it is called "date rape". Don't fool yourself into thinking that this "pressure tactic" was in anyway a precursor to a relationship of any sort...that he "pressures" his future SigOs into having sex with him, because he is "abrupt" or "crude". He is WAY too charming and slick for that...cooked you a delicious dinner? He doesn't lack for finesse dear...don't kid yourself.

He pressures WOMEN into having sex with him...don't don't DON'T make the mistake of thinking that this was just an isolated event...and that everything else is all systems go.

If you were a woman he REALLY cared about, you would have gotten completely different treatment. He knows the ropes...he is educated, and charming. He just doesn't want to bother with the ropes for you.

Nothing worthwhile will come from this.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 2:58pm
Title: Damnit Gogo, I really think you're right.

I wish you were wrong though... but last time you were so right on. You took my instinct (that I happened to fail to act on), and reflected what could possibly happen. Granted, the worst possible outcome DID (almost) happen, and nothing like that has ever happened to me before, so when it did happen, I was completly shocked out of my mind... This time, my instint is telling me that I have a potential to get hurt (physically/emotionally) if I continue to have contact with him. But is everything always worst case scenario? I hope not. Maybe just with this one specific character. I suppose time will tell about how I deal with this.

My emotions since that moment last night have been on a roller coaster. Scared, angry, upset, shameful, and feeling stupid for ending up in that situation... and not raising hell at him because I may now never get the chance. I feel so bad that this could have happened to someone else... and maybe they weren't so lucky, or loud, or confident, or strong. Thanks for all your help and support- and for helping me take off the rose-colored glasses.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 5:06pm
I had to say something....only because, I've been in those positions. I mean, all the advice you got here was perfect, I just had to add my two cents.

First rule of dating....on a FIRST date, never ever go to his house. For myself, when a guy asks me to his house and we're barely in the first stages of dating, I know he just wants sex. It's the old (no offense men), "come over and watch a video" trick. Or if you do feel safe to going to a guy's house, DO NOT stay after dinner...that shows them you're willing to see what else may happen.

As for him pushing it, he was. End of story.

Oh yeah, if you make out with a guy on the first date, most likely he's going to assume you are for sex on the first date with no strings attached. Not always, but from my experience and male friends, most of them will lost respect for you if you start macking with them on the first date....this includes getting felt up, and lying on top of one another. That is just WAY too intimate for a first date...unless of course, all you expect to be is a piece of meat for them.

My two cents...from what I have learned.

-T

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 04-09-2003 - 9:14am
I'm sorry tigger, but your response was unfair. I used my own judgement to decide that I would go to his house, and my own judgement to decide to make out with him. I did that because we've been acquaintences for years (8 to be exact), and he has dated people I have known for years as well. I had no reason to be afraid of him! You portrayed that I was being a slut or giving up something I shouldn't have. If you make out with someone, it doesn't mean you're going to have "no strings attached sex"... I think maybe that's the reasoning my date was using, but most people would not expect sex after kissing on the couch- especially after the woman says NO. Perhaps because of the results of the evening, the judgement I used was flawed, but in no way do I deserve a lecture on "the rules of dating". I went through a traumatic experience, and all you had to say about it was "he was pushing it". The rest was my fault. I'm sorry. What a load. I didn't ask about my dating techniques. Your post is just out of scope.

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