Group Outings - Dates?

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-14-2006
Group Outings - Dates?
9
Thu, 12-14-2006 - 4:13pm

OK. So this is the next problem. We have always said that dd may have some dating privileges at age 16. She is currently 14, almost 15. Last spring, she asked to go out on Friday night to the movies with her friends and then out to dinner. I was told that a parent, Mrs. M., was with the group of 14 boys and girls. Many Friday nights have had the same pattern of movies and dinner. As of two weeks ago, dd has her first official bf. BF seems to be very nice and is clean-cut. She invited bf to come to join her group of friends for dinner and a movie this past Friday night. I explored this situation further and discovered that Mrs. M was never with the group on any outings. My fault for not checking with Mrs. M long ago. I also have read some messages from dd's MySpace that imply that she and her bf were necking at the movies this past Friday night.

Add to that, dd has also told me point blank that her friends would gladly lie for her in any circumstances as they are very loyal.

DD has also announced that she is in a hurry to grow up.

I have also found hidden files on her computer of Anime sex scenes that she is collecting.

Yesterday, her dramatic writing teacher e-mailed me that the plot she was writing for her one-act play was x-rated and suggested I have a talk with her about "audiences."

I don't feel that I can permit dd to go to the movies and dinner with her friends as the risks are too high. It feels very much like dating, and I am not ready for dd to do this. I am concerned that she is in a hurry to have sex as an affront to our traditional values.

So, what is your advice??

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-20-2005
Thu, 12-14-2006 - 4:57pm

OK - before we go anywhere else, I have a question - because I think I'm confused.

If your dd is not allowed to date (you say you'll give her "some dating privileges" at 16, and she's as of now not yet 15), how can she have her "first official bf?"

Am I missing something here? Because to me, allowing an official boyfriend is pretty much allowing dating - no matter what way you look at it.

If it sounds like a duck, walks like a duck...well, you get it.

Now for the other issues...

I feel for you - I had a similar situation with DS last year where he SWORE parents would be at a party - even having one of his friends pretend to be said friend's "mother." Later found out that parents were never there.

I don't know that I'd object to my 14 (almost 15) year old DS going to the movies with a group of people and no parent - as a matter of fact, I KNOW I don't object, because he's done it - either shopping at the mall, or the movies. I DO, however, see something TERRIBLY wrong with being lied to about parents being there - and I don't blame you for being very angry about that. Not knowing the truth does not put you in a position of being able to make an informed decision, and it's unfair.

As for your DD's friends being willing to "lie for her," they all are - they stick together like glue. They will lie through their teeth to protect their friends - so don't bother looking to them for assistance.

(The one thing I've done to eliminate this is integrate myself closely with my son's friends. Lying to my face is like lying to their own mothers - and I make sure they tell me TO MY FACE what's going on - so I can haunt them about it later).

I'd definitely put a moratorium on the movie nights - as well as any other activities that you can't monitor - because your DD lied to you...and now you can't trust her. She can earn your trust back, of course, by telling the truth, but for now, you'll just need to know where she is at all times - and you'll need to verify that. And if she is engaging in questionable behavior AT the movies, obviously she can't be trusted to go.

After my son lied to me, every time he went anywhere for the next month, I would randomly show up - or call the house - or drive past...just to see for myself. He never knew when...and he has definitely learned that he gets farther with the truth than with a lie.

One other thing - when my son tells me he's at someone's house, I make sure he calls me from their HOUSE phone - because a cell phone could be anywhere.

Notice I'm focusing on one thing - the lying...not the necking (which of course, is wrong, but hey - they can do that behind the school - or in some towns, IN the school...so keeping her from going to the movies won't necessarily stop that), or the movies without parents...but the lying. You can't trust someone who doesn't tell the truth.

I agree that the hidden anime files on the computer are disturbing (porn is bad enough - ANIMATED porn?)...and I also had this problem with DS when he was about the same age - I addressed that by checking the computer history daily and telling him if he continued to download filth onto my computer, he couldn't use it anymore, as he had a younger brother I didn't need to be subjected to what he found interesting.

It sounds like she may be heading in the direction of early sex. I'd suggest the "talk"--which doesn't condone, but educates, as if your DD makes this decision, she's going to go through with it no matter what you do. Make sure she understands what your values are, and how you feel, and how disappointed you'll be if you find out she's engaging in this activity that is definitely beyond her years - but make sure she knows all the risks involved. When I found out my son was experimenting with sex (probably not far from the same age - he was 16), I told him he wasn't allowed to go out alone with his bf until they had both been tested - and brought me results. I wasn't happy about it, but at least I knew if my son was going to have sex, he was having sex with someone clean (sorry - i don't mean to make it sound like I'm ok with it - but it DOES happen).

And again - if you're not going to allow her to date, can you really "allow" the boyfriend?

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-17-2005
Thu, 12-14-2006 - 5:49pm

I pretty much agree with everything pp said, except that I know there are some teens who date at age 14 - just not "solo dating", but in groups. That sounds like what you're allowing your dd to do. Also, naturally, he should be the one to come over to your house, not the other way around, and you should be around to supervise. I think you can "allow it" with quite a few limitations if you are okay with that. Well, let me rephrase that. If you are not okay with her having a boyfriend at 14, she will just have one behind your back.

I agree that there should be consequences for lying. I also wanted to warn you that these big groups at the movie theaters, in my experience, spell trouble. I know in our day it was fine, and it seems innocent enough, BUT. This is today we are dealing with. My dd14 went out to the movies in a large group like you're describing and came home drunk. Some little genius snuck some vodka into the theater and proceeded to spike everyone's drinks. My dd did not say "no". She lived to regret that decision, in more ways than one.

Have the talk with her, keep the lines of communication open. Trust, but verify. And above all, good luck.

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-14-2006
Thu, 12-14-2006 - 6:02pm

Thank you for your helpful response, mamarose. We never really said anything about when it would be OK to have a bf - -at what age - - I was thinking of the harmless little bfs I had in middle school that never involved so much as a kiss. More on the order of "Mimi likes John." I didn't think bfs with group dating would come up. Some history, by monitoring her computer, I discovered her announcement to the world on MySpace that she is now "in a relationship." I asked her what that meant and she announced that she had a boyfriend. He is in all of her classes with her at school. His myspace says that he is only interested in "serious relationships." I do not feel that I have any control over whether or not she proclaims that she has a bf, and if I forbid it, she'll lie even more and be even more secretive. Does anyone have any idea about what to do about this??

I do, of course, reserve the right to change rules at my discretion, but changing the rules right now to say, "No bf till you are 16" doesn't seem like it would accomplish anything. Some of her friends have bfs that come over to their homes. For us, that is not an option. Unfortunately, bf lives within walking distance. DD can't be trusted home alone anymore. She's already asked for and been denied the ability to start taking walks in the evening by herself. That was a major ordeal.

You are absolutely right about trust. Trust is gone across the board. We've had six weeks of unraveling lies. The biggest lie was about the computer, the internet and myspace. Last Christmas, my husband bought a laptop computer for our family. DD soon disappeared with it into her room. It was internet ready but we had no wireless connection. I checked it and it didn't pick up a random signal. Or so I thought. You can guess what happened from here. Long story short, over the year, DD became more and more anti-social with the family, foul-temepered and mean. Finally, we discovered that she was indeed accessing the internet. She had found a place in her upstairs room that picked up the neighbor's wireless. She had spent a year surfing the internet without restriction and was heavily involved in r+-rated role playing games, had made several websites, had a myspace with 150 of her closest friends and a blog that detailed all of our arguments (from her perspective) that made her parents look like monsters from the slime lagoon. Other people, including business associates and relatives, had children who were amongst her friends and we were the laughing stock of the village. Also, she had posted confidential banking information I had shared with her, and she even had a blog called "If you are a stalker. . . " where she listed every conceivable detail about herself from bra size to address. So trust, ha! That's a goner right now.

As far as our family values, rejection is complete. She has also decided she is an atheist. I am hoping that this is like her vegetarian phase that lasted all of three weeks.

I wouldn't have a problem with platonic boys and platonic girls going to the movies together, but with her drive to lie and her interest in sex, I feel like my husband and I have to end the unchaperoned activities. Even if another parent were there, who's to say they would even care if my dd wants to get it on with some guy?

I feel like she's sitting on a time bomb and I am on the other side of a plexiglass wall, watching.

Looking forward to more feedback

Mimi

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-18-2005
Thu, 12-14-2006 - 8:00pm
I think focussing on the date/no date or bf/no bf is missing the point. It may be part of the problem, but it sounds like there are bigger issues of identity and sexuality that your DD is struggling with. Either you can talk to her about it, or you can help her find a counselor to talk to.
iVillage Member
Registered: 12-20-2005
Thu, 12-14-2006 - 10:37pm

OK - going to try to answer here - as is my tendency, your comments are in parentheses, and my responses follow (I'm really sorry this is so long, but this is a subject dear to my heart):

((Thank you for your helpful response, mamarose. We never really said anything about when it would be OK to have a bf - -at what age - - I was thinking of the harmless little bfs I had in middle school that never involved so much as a kiss. More on the order of "Mimi likes John." I didn't think bfs with group dating would come up. Some history, by monitoring her computer, I discovered her announcement to the world on MySpace that she is now "in a relationship." I asked her what that meant and she announced that she had a boyfriend. He is in all of her classes with her at school. His myspace says that he is only interested in "serious relationships." I do not feel that I have any control over whether or not she proclaims that she has a bf, and if I forbid it, she'll lie even more and be even more secretive. Does anyone have any idea about what to do about this??))

You are absolutely correct - she'll lie more and be more secretive...but by the same token, you're sending mixed messages by telling her she can't date, but it's ok to have a boyfriend...no matter what YOUR perception of a bf is, or what HERS is, allowing her to have a boyfriend is putting the cart before the horse.

Second, as far as the dating thing is concerned, you might want to allow her to have the boyfriend over the house to watch movies, but monitor all other activity...this gives her the freedom to "have" the boyfriend, but keeps her under your watchful eye. I did this for a couple years - even going to far as to go OUT with my son and his bf. Another thing I do (and my son HATES this)? Every single potential romantic interest that comes into this house is subject to a grueling third degree - their willingness to tolerate it determines whether they are allowed to see my son.

As far as the myspace thing is concerned - I wouldn't worry too much about that. I have a myspace - I created it for the sole purpose of monitoring my son's myspace. They are NOT allowed to have myspace accounts unless I am on their friends list. Can they have other, secret accounts I don't know about? Sure...but then I would see that they weren't getting activity on the one I have - and question them. Also, they put all sorts of things on their myspace - my son says he's "divorced" and straight. Many call themselves "swingers" and "Buddhists" and mispresent their race - I don't take it seriously.

What I DO take seriously, however, is their tendency to share WAY too much information online. If I see pictures or comments or surveys I think are too revealing, I make them delete it immediately.

((I do, of course, reserve the right to change rules at my discretion, but changing the rules right now to say, "No bf till you are 16" doesn't seem like it would accomplish anything. Some of her friends have bfs that come over to their homes. For us, that is not an option. Unfortunately, bf lives within walking distance. DD can't be trusted home alone anymore. She's already asked for and been denied the ability to start taking walks in the evening by herself. That was a major ordeal.))

You're right - on all counts. She's already demonstrated she can't be trusted. To allow her to go for walks, or stay home alone, would just invite trouble. One thing I do, when I go out, is not tell them when I'm coming home - and sometimes show up unexpectedly.

((You are absolutely right about trust. Trust is gone across the board. We've had six weeks of unraveling lies. The biggest lie was about the computer, the internet and myspace. Last Christmas, my husband bought a laptop computer for our family. DD soon disappeared with it into her room. It was internet ready but we had no wireless connection. I checked it and it didn't pick up a random signal. Or so I thought. You can guess what happened from here. Long story short, over the year, DD became more and more anti-social with the family, foul-temepered and mean. Finally, we discovered that she was indeed accessing the internet. She had found a place in her upstairs room that picked up the neighbor's wireless. She had spent a year surfing the internet without restriction and was heavily involved in r+-rated role playing games, had made several websites, had a myspace with 150 of her closest friends and a blog that detailed all of our arguments (from her perspective) that made her parents look like monsters from the slime lagoon. Other people, including business associates and relatives, had children who were amongst her friends and we were the laughing stock of the village. Also, she had posted confidential banking information I had shared with her, and she even had a blog called "If you are a stalker. . . " where she listed every conceivable detail about herself from bra size to address. So trust, ha! That's a goner right now.))

I wouldn't worry too much about being a "laughing stock." These relatives and business associates should see their OWN children's myspace.

I would, however, (that is, IF you're going to let her use the computer again), demand that she either make her blogs about your arguments private, or not post them, and DEFINITELY forbid her from posting your private information (better yet, don't share it with her). I made the mistake of sharing private IRS information with my son, and within minutes, it was posted on his livejournal. He said "only my friends can see it," and "it's my journal and it's private." You want a private journal? Here's a book and a pen. And it's YOUR journal, and only YOUR friends can see it, so stop posting MY information. Needless to say, I don't share information with him anymore.

((As far as our family values, rejection is complete. She has also decided she is an atheist. I am hoping that this is like her vegetarian phase that lasted all of three weeks.))

Again, this isn't uncommon - many of my children's friends identify themselves as "agnostic." I doubt they can even identify the word. What it means to them is "I don't want to go to church." Atheism in church lasts until the first near auto accident or final exam.

By the way, a bit drastic. An atheist doesn't need Christmas presents, right? Because Christmas is celebrating Jesus's birth - and if you don't believe in God, how can you believe in Jesus?

((I wouldn't have a problem with platonic boys and platonic girls going to the movies together, but with her drive to lie and her interest in sex, I feel like my husband and I have to end the unchaperoned activities. Even if another parent were there, who's to say they would even care if my dd wants to get it on with some guy?

I feel like she's sitting on a time bomb and I am on the other side of a plexiglass wall, watching.))

Again, you're right - her lying does not set her up for being allowed to do things you might otherwise allow her to do. If she wants to go to the movies with friends, go with her. Or invite them over to watch a movie at home. As inconvenient as that may be to her, it was HER choice to lie - and with lying comes consequences.

You're also right about other parents - you can't necessarily trust another parent to support your values. A short story - at an affair once, we (the coordinators) found out there was underage drinking going on. After we put a stop to it, we found out one of the PARENTS sitting at the kids' table was the one buying the drinks - and the kids were anywhere from 14-18. Needless to say, this woman did NOT support MY concept of value.

I'm sorry for how you're feeling - because I have been there more than once with my DS. It's like they're driving full speed to the end of a cliff, you're standing there shouting, and they're telling you they know what's best - and you watch them drop off.

Much of the behavior your daughter exhibits (the lying about computer usage, myspace, friends backing her up, etc.) is fairly common in teenagers. But the deceit is unacceptable...and since she has lost your trust, you are perfectly within your rights as a parent to restrict her behavior - as I say to my son, it's my JOB to be a parent.

I would monitor her computer usage, restrict her activities when you're not present, and let her know you're watching her every move. When her behavior starts to exhibit the respectful behavior of an ethical human being, you can discuss with her earning some trust back. But until then, she made her bed, and she can lie in it.

Keep in mind, though, that you have several battles to fight, and you might want to pick and choose which ones are most important. Sex is a dangerous game for someone 15 years old, but not uncommon in that age. Explain to her that you don't approve, and explain what happens to people who have indiscriminate sex - they set themselves up for teen pregnancy, disease, bad reputations, and the inability all through high school to get respectable dates and boyfriends (remember the "school tramp?"). At the same time, understand that you may have to loosen the reins on some issues (once, of course, she has started to earn trust back) in order to maintain other expectations. For instance, allowing the evening walks, with the understanding that she be back in a certain amount of time, you know exactly where she's going, and you could drive up to find her anytime.

The reason I say this is that if she's taking the walks to sneak out and see the boyfriend, no matter what restrictions you put on her, she'll figure out how to do that. It will turn into climbing out her window at night, wandering around town in the middle of the night while you're sleeping, making up after school activities to spend time with him, etc. And if that's the case, it MAY turn into young sex, only to be rebellious.

I hope this helps - sorry it's so long

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-28-1999
Fri, 12-15-2006 - 12:26pm

Why do you say that it's not an option for BF to come over to your house? Do you mean when you're not home or any time? It would seem that's the perfect opportunity for you to monitor their activity and get to know him. I do know that's useless for you to tell her she can't have a BF. That would be like telling her she can't like this boy, which she already does. The only thing you can do is tell her what she's allowed to do w/ him, where they can go alone, etc. Normally I would say that going to the movies in a group would be ok at her age (except for the fact that she lied about it). Question--if she had asked you, would you have let her go, if you had known that no parent would be there? Not to say that's an excuse for not obeying your parents, but my DD who is now 17 was going to the movies w/ girls & boys when they were in 8th grade. One parent would drop them off and someone else would pick them up right after so there wasn't the opportunity to get into trouble. I also think that parents who are too strict are just asking for trouble. Those are the kids who are most likely to rebel when they turn 18. My 16 yo DSD has a friend whose mother won't let her do any normal things for her age and she will complain about her right in front of us. Last night we took the 2 of them to the mall and my DH actually said "how did you get out of the house?" Her mother was afraid of "crime" or her money getting stolen at the mall and we do not live in a high crime area. I have been letting my DD go there w/ her friends since she was about 13 or 14 and nothing ever happened to her. I suppose if she knew that her DD was taking about $150 in cash, she really wouldn't have been too happy!

As far as myspace, first I don't think teens get it that it's not only their friends who are reading this, but any member of the public. We have nagged all of them about not putting personal info on the computer and told them every horrible story about any kid who meets up w/ someone they "met" on the computer and ends up getting raped or murdered. I also know they all make up stuff. When my DH would have an argument w/ his DD, she would post extreme exaggerations on her myspace page about how he was hitting her and threw her out of the house. (NOte: if she was thrown out of the house, how would she be using the computer?) And don't worry too much about what other people think. In the last MA governor's race, some of the candidats' kids even posted embarrassing things on their myspace pages, like photos of themselves drinking alcohol (underage) and it was in the newspaper. So at least it's not that bad.

I think the atheist thing is just a phase too. I know my 17 yo DD just hates going to church, but my ex still makes her go w/ him. (I'm not much of a churchgoer>) while my 11 yo DS will tell me I should go to church. When I was in college, I went to a Catholic college and really enjoyed going to church, which they would have at midnight in the dorm, so you never know. I think it's just a part of questioning what they believe in vs. what they were told to believe.

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-14-2006
Fri, 12-15-2006 - 12:33pm
Good point. We visited with one counselor, but the counselor was somewhat creepy (we all thought that) so we need to keep on looking. I'd like to find a counselor with values similar to those of our family, but I haven't put in a lot of work in this area. The last thing I'd want is a liberal counselor. DD has already had enough liberal ideas introduced by public school teachers.
iVillage Member
Registered: 12-14-2006
Fri, 12-15-2006 - 1:06pm

It's good to hear different points of view. After reading these posts, I can see that it is an option for dd to invite bf over. I can see the advantages to doing so.

I am somewhat OK with platonic movies and dinner on Friday nights, but I am not OK with DD's deceptiveness. She continues to lie about even the simplest things. For example, she told me she had lunch with her girlfriends on Tuesday, but in her IMs she told her friend she had spent the entire lunch hour with her BF on the computer in the library and that she had left her log in open, he told her she should shut it, she didn't think she needed to, and then he snuck back and made bogus posts on her login. He told her about it as a way to demonstrate how she needs to sign off. The whole incident doesn't matter so much as that she can't seem to tell the truth about the simplest things. Likewise, she was using the computer to write a paper. Every time I walked by, the computer displayed only her open document. My monitoring program later showed me that she had cut and pasted some surveys and questionnaires from myspace onto the lower half of the document and she was really working on the surveys and questionnaires when she appeared to be working on a paper. Then, she went back to myspace and posted her questionnaires and surveys. I don't get it. If she just finished her paper, she'd have the rest of the evening free to do her social computing. I really worry that she seems to enjoy lying to me and deceiving me.

Avatar for phacademy
iVillage Member
Registered: 04-13-2003
Sat, 12-16-2006 - 9:27am

"DD has already had enough liberal ideas introduced by public school teachers. "


That comment really hit home for me.


My solution to this problem was to pull my troubled ds out of public school when he was 16. He had all sorts of notions as to what a *normal teen* is, and

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