Are we ever right?

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-23-2004
Are we ever right?
7
Wed, 06-23-2004 - 12:47pm
I guess this kinda goes with my last post. The happy ending one. But I can't help, but think, I cannot be this wrong about this guy. Am I completely blinded by love or am I right? Will he realize how good we were together and still are when we hang out. You know what he told me last night? That he loves hanging out with me as friends, he just doesn't want a girlfriend. It's funny though. When we hang out, we act like we are together...course it's never in public. It's always in his (what used to be our) apartment. He says he doesn't want any commitment. He just likes having fun with me. I feel like he has fun with me, then he forgets when I walk out the door and I don't. I'm always wondering what he's doing when I'm not around. I don't want us to be like we were, living together and as serious as we were. I just want to start over. Do our own things, see each other when we can. Which is what we are doing now anyhow. I'd just like that little phone call that tells me where he's going and that he loves me and will see me later. That's all. But that's too much for him. He doesn't want that. I'm giving my all still and I know I'm wasting my time, but I don't want to stop. Even though I know I need to. What do I do? I know last time I posted, I was all uppity about moving on. ANd sometimes I am, but sometimes...I'm not. I feel like we are going to kinda break up all over again.
iVillage Member
Registered: 04-08-2004
Wed, 06-23-2004 - 1:57pm
Read the book He's Scared, She's Scared. Your guy is not interested in a commitment. Yes, it is entirely possible that he has feelings for you, likes being with you, thinks about you, whatever. But he doesn't want a girlfriend, he wants space, he wants options, he doesn't want to be serious. Listen to him when he says those things. Believe them, because he means them, even if you don't understand it. You love him, and maybe he even loves you. It takes more than love to make a long term relationship work. I'm married and divorced, a part of me will always love my ex-h. Love is not enough, though. You have to be committed to the project of making a life together, have to have compatible interests, be willing to compromise, all sorts of things. And your guy just isn't. Now, that is terribly sad, but it's mostly sad for him. He's immature, he's scared to be serious, he's driven by his doubts, whatever. But it is a dead end situation for you.

I think he told you outright or at least implied this, but you didn't listen - when you were together, and it was great for you, back "the way it used to be," he was unhappy, feeling claustrophobic, feeling too pressured, not wanting to move forward. He didn't wake up one day and stub his toe, and accidentally end your relationship. The seeds of the breakup were planted a long time ago, maybe all in his head from the beginning because of his anxiety at getting too serious, and he was probably often uncomfortable and feeling pressured just when you were ecstatic and happy. If there was no big event, no affair, no job overseas, whatever, then your long-term partner who decides to up and leave one day has been quietly and secretly unhappy for a long time, even when you were happy. In fact, if your partner is commitment phobic, the times that made you happiest, because you were close and loving and connected, those times made him most unhappy and most anxious at being tied down in a relationship. Think about it - at your happiest time, he was secretly unhappy, secretly feeling pressured by the relationship. He's happy now, with "hanging out," with his freedom, with no commitment, no obligations, no pressures, but you're terribly unhappy. You want different things. What you remember as ideal wasn't his ideal, and his ideal now is definitely not yours. My ex said this to me, and it's horribly painful, but it may be appropriate - would you ask an escaped prisoner to return to his jail cell, no matter how cozy it is now, how clean and well-furnished you've made it? No, you couldn't ask that, and he wouldn't do it even if you did. That's how mine thought of the relationship, as a jail cell, even one with scented candles and nice soft sheets. I hate to say this, but yours thinks the same. People who want a committed relationship don't think of them as cells, aren't relieved to have escaped, don't cherish their freedom. I think that's what's going on with you, because of the circumstances of the breakup, and because he's okay hanging out with you (it's not you as a person, it's the relationship that he has a problem with). But problems getting with the program of a LTR are a lot bigger than you can help him deal with, and right now he doesn't WANT to deal with them (there's another poster on this board who's a 37 year old man and just now understanding that he has a problem with commitment - it can take a LONG time).

Here's the thing - we spend our lives inside our heads. And we tend to assume that other people are like us, that they think the same way, want the same things, have the same values, enjoy the same stuff and fear the same things. The older you get and the more you experience, the more shocked you are to realize that is so not true. People, even people you think you know very well, have entirely different agendas than you, are motivated by different things, are afraid of and anxious about things that don't frighten you, enjoy things that you don't, whatever. This is just one of those things that is hard to wrap your mind around, but it's true. Some people don't think that a happy committed relationship is paradise on earth. Or they don't think it at this stage in their life. Or they sorta think it, but kind of don't - they're ambivalent, confused, pulled in different directions. Part of them wants freedom, options, wants to "live," wants to be sure, wants to get to know themselves better, etc. When your ex says that he doesn't want a girlfriend right now, that he's not interested in commitment, he means that, hard as it is for you to understand. He knows that means that the two of you won't have the wonderful, committed relationship you wanted. And he knew that when he chose to end it. His choice is a result of his internal thought process about what he wants and needs in his life, based on his agenda. You don't understand it, but you have to come to accept the consequence of it. I know that it seems terribly tragic to just write someone off, to give up on them, to give up on the great goddess love. But your life is short, and you're at the helm, and you're the only one looking out for you. He cannot give you what you need. You're torturing yourself sticking around. He gave up on you, on your relationship, and on love.

You know you're wasting your time. You've got these little scraps of relationship, some affection, some hanging out, maybe sex, but it's not what you want. You want the call that says he loves you, you want him to be committed to you even if you spend more time doing your own things. That call *is* commitment though, and that is not what he wants. You won't get it here, you can wait for a long time. Stop waiting, you deserve better. Who knows, maybe the reality of actually losing you (not just transforming to a relationship but without the commitment) will shock him. Probably not, though. This is sad, but you don't have the power to fix it, all you can do is waste precious time in your life.

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-21-2004
Wed, 06-23-2004 - 2:13pm
That comment you made...about the seeds of the breakup being planted long before...it got to me and made me really realize why I'm upset about alot of things about our breakup. The fact that I don't know when things changed for him, or how long before we broke up it was that these seeds were planted. He never tried to fix anything, never said he had any problems, and if I asked he'd always say nothing was wrong or bothering him. It just bothers me because I know these things don't happen overnight...so why did he lie to me and not give me the truth??? Why couldn't he get up the balls just to say what was wrong and on his mind? Then part of me thinks that something really did happen that night with her(an earlier post about him and her...and I thought he cheated on me)& that's what made him change his mind and he lied to me when he said nothing happened...and I was STUPID enough to believe him!!!! Then I get mad because he lied to me...and then he got mad at me because I was hurting and upset when he dumped me, and I couldn't be friends right away...and probably never will be able to. He lied to me and got mad at me! he had no right to do that! BLAH!!!!!



Thanks for that very enlightening comment.



~*~Zsa

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iVillage Member
Registered: 01-23-2004
Wed, 06-23-2004 - 4:12pm
First off. I'd like to say I love you! You're always right. Even when it hurts to admit that. I know the things you said. It's like I'm torn in half. THe rational half knows everything you said is right. The hopeful half hopes you are wrong. But thank you. Thank you for telling me straight up. I needed to hear that. Now I need to put some action into that. He seems like he's so hell bent on us staying friends. I know that's not possible. I need more than that from him and he can't give it to me. So I'm trying to move on. I have to cut off all contact with him and fast. That's what's killing me though. I'm trying but when he calls, I can't help but say "ok, I'll be right over." It's time to stop that. Thank you again. I'm going to keep trying. That's all I can do now.

-Kate

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-08-2004
Wed, 06-23-2004 - 4:26pm
You know, honestly, the seeds for the breakup might just be in his own head. Some people are deeply conflicted about relationships, have some little voice in their heads questioning everything, finding fault, creating doubt. The conflict he was fighting was probably mostly internal, and nothing to do with you or your behavior. He ended the relationship to get some peace with his inner conflict. When people literally can't identify something that went wrong, it usually really is about them, not about you. Even "falling out of love." I was married to my high school sweetheart, over time we just didn't have the attraction for each other, didn't want to spend time together, we fell out of love. But I can still identify lots of concrete things that created distance between us, different goals we articulated as we "grew up," certain behaviors, particular "things." Falling out of love was a process, but it was one set in motion by particular external factors.

Normal people don't just go to sleep in love and wake up not in love at all. But, if you've always had an internal mental conflict about committed relationships, this may appear to be exactly what's happening. There may not be external factors, or not anything abnormal. Here's why he never mentioned his doubts or discomfort with the relationship - he's probably never had a moment where he wasn't conflicted about a relationship, where he didn't play the war of "I love her, but..." in his head. That is his normal, default mode. He accepts that as standard, he hoped this time it would be different, it wasn't, so he's out of there. He may not even be aware that the problem is him. He's like a version of that guy who never calls again after you tell him you love him. That's not a bad thing you did, it's not your "fault" that he bailed, it's that the l-word stirred up all of his mental commitment demons and he couldn't handle it getting serious. So, even if your ex told you that you'd done "things" wrong, they wouldn't be things that are wrong in themselves, and they'd probably seem perfectly appropriate to you. He's been fighting in his own head two conflicting impulses - one toward getting closer to you and one breaking out of the relationship for "freedom." Freedom won. But that's all about him and his issues, not something that you can point to that you did wrong.

Here's the other thing - he wasn't lying when he said he loved you, I bet he really meant it. But he had this other internal thing going on, this tension about getting close. If he's not especially self-aware or mature, he expects that being in love, really in love, if it was "meant to be," would magically erase the doubts and uncertainty and tension that he has always had about getting close. Of course it doesn't, so he decides this wasn't meant to be, and now he's relieved, the conflict is over. Sure, he's alone, but he's at peace, and that seems better. It's not about you, it's about him being messed up and not ready for a relationship (which is what he's telling you outright now, listen to him). When you understand that the surface of your relationship, the interaction you had with him, isn't even half the story, because he was fighting his own internal war with himself about what he really wants that has nothing to do with anything you did "wrong," it can help.

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-04-2004
Wed, 06-23-2004 - 4:30pm
yes, do keep trying, its an ongoing battle but the first few steps are the hardest. telling him you dont want to spend time with him is hard but you will thank yourself when you start feeling better.

something that my parents taught me early on in life is that life never gets better. this sounds terribly cynical, but the point is that the external circumstances of our lives are going to be up and down, here and there, never consistently good or bad. what DOES get better is us. we improve with age. we develop the maturity and perspective to accept that the amount of control we truly have in this world is minimal. that there are so many things we cannot change, that sometimes we can do our best but we still wont receive the rewards we were hoping for. therefore, we cannot keep searching for some one or something outside of us to fill the voids inside of us. its easy to believe a new boyfriend, a new city, a new dress, a new drug--that these things will make us feel better. but as cheesy as this sounds, happiness does indeed come from within.

and that is an incredibly uplifting and positive thing to know. because it means i dont NEED my boyfriend to feel good about myself. i can develop a healthy sense of self and can grow into a beautiful person whether or not i have him by my side.

i dunno why i chose to go off on this tangent or whether or not its even relevent...i think what im trying to say is that you should never lose hope for yoru own happiness, and you should remember that its not dependent on anybody else. your bfhas his own issues and for this reason, he cannot be with you. there is simply nothing you can do about that. but its not so bad, this lack of control. in many ways it takes some responsibility off of your shoulders--the only person you really have to worry about is you because guess what--the only person you really CAN worry about is you! does that make sense? i hope so.

you have a good plan when you say you will cut the contact with your ex. turn the energy you devote to him inward and find yourself again.

good luck.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 06-23-2004 - 6:29pm
The "employment" metaphor of a relationship.

Dating is not a relationship. Dating is the "recruiting process" (if you're seeking partnership - some people dating are NOT). Dating is when you put your beest foot forward and if you're intelligent you assess what you see of them via their actions, decisions and words and compare it against your own standards, needs, and values. Dating is when there is no "future" - there is "right now". In dating you odn't give, sacrifice, tolerate or endure "because we're a couple and committed and thus my future is intertwined with him/her". Dating is I enjoy theri company, when we're together, and I enjoy what we do together (whtever that may be) but there is no "tomorrow" in mind at this per se with this person.

In dating - it's important never to believe that you can give so much and make life with you so appealing that they'll want to be with you forever. Because if you do manage that - the standard that you'll have set of prioritizing them completely, while ignoring yourself totally - is the very dynamic in the relationship that would do you in.

But...dating is not a job. It's the recruiting process for the job......a relationship is a "job".

A relationship means that you've emotionally invested and involved yourself with this person, your future isn't "in their hands" but everything that you do impacts them and their potential and future as well as your own. So you have to make compromises, concessions and communicate well - so that you get your needs met via your actions and pursuits - and you're not trampling on their individuality while you do it. A relationship is obligation and commitment - which shuts doors to options and opportunities not just with other women - but jobs, and everything else. The people that say "I'm not ready for kids" - they don't mean they're not ready for the sweet angels that sleep on their chests and feel so warm and smell so nice. they mean they're not ready to "have that obligation" to hold a baby in their arms - rather than go out and do their own thing at this time.

So, he doesn't want the job of a relationship. He doesn't want the requirement to meet your needs, share your values and standards, he doesn't want to have the obligation to communicate honestly and consider your needs equal to his own.

That's a very big job...and osmeone who isn't self-complete really isn't ready to do it.

The "benefits" of taking the job of a relationship are whatever you two as a couple determine them to be. Oddly enough, most people have huge lists of expectations of partnership and their partner...but they never discuss them. they assume that commitment wiill bring forth what it is they want/need/seek/desire. It usually doesn't.

Just like the expectations aren't discussed...quite often the benefits aren't discussed and reviewed either It's easier to think "we need to be having sex so that he'll want a life with me" or "his willingness and desire to have sex means he cares about me as an individual"...rather than honestly communicate.

The "beenfits" package of the job of a relationship is regular sex, emotional bond, emotional support, and osmetimes financial or personal options unavailable to each single individual.

When you give up the benefits package prior to them taking the job...precisely what are you thinking is the enticement to do the work of the job? And you can't make someone take a job they don't want......no matter what you give.


Erin

quickblade14@hotmail.com

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-30-2004
Fri, 06-25-2004 - 12:14am
I'm sorry your in pain. And one question pops into my head and you don't have to answer it on here because its nobody's business but I can't help but wonder if the two of you are still intimate. Because if that's the case its no wonder he wants a friendship instead of a relationship......why would he want the serious stuff if he can get it with no strings attached? If you aren't intimate then take his words for face value that he just wants a friendship. Either way I think it would be good for both of you to take some time apart and start having no contact for awhile so you can both get over one another and then go from there. Good luck!!













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