I'm finding it so hard to trust him
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| Sun, 07-24-2005 - 3:16pm |
I need help. My husband seems to have a habit of lying to me about women, and he's turning me into a supiscious jealous person that I don't want to be.
The history thus far:
The first big lie I caught him in: We had been dating for a three months or so, and we had officially become "girlfriend/boyfriend." He told me that he was going out one night with a "female friend" who wanted him to take pictures for her before she left town. I wasn't thrilled about it, but he went out anyway. He was out until 11 pm without calling me (it was only supposed to take a few hours). Well, I later found out that it was an ex-girlfriend who he was out with, and not only did they take pictures together, but had dinner as well. He says he didn't tell me it was an ex because he was protecting me, or was afraid I'd get upset. (No kidding, who wouldn't?)
Next, he started asking me if I would mind if he went backpacking with another female friend. He swears she wasn't an ex-girlfriend. I told him I wasn't comfortable with that, so he said he wouldn't. Well, #1)Turns out he made several trips where he asked her to "bump into him" on the trail, so he wouldn't be lying to me. And #2)She was an ex-girlfriend. From what I heard (not from him) they never met up on the trail.
The next incident involved yet another ex-girlfriend. We were moving a few states away together, and for some reason he felt compelled to meet up with this woman for lunch for one last goodbye. He didn't tell me about it until I confronted him about it a few days later.
After we moved out here, we got married. For many months, he was in contact over chat with some of his ex-girlfriends, after I told him I'd prefer him not to because of all the lying he had done to me about them in the past. It took a few times of me finding out he was lying about not talking to them before he got the point that lying to me about them erodes the trust we have in our relationship.
There have been other things I've caught him lying about, like porn, inappropriate pictures of ex-girlfriends...
This weekend, he's doing a backpacking trip with a group of people he doesn't know. (People organize weekend trips out here that you can join up with.) He told me some guy emailed him and asked him to pick him up on the way to the trailhead. I found out it's really a woman he's picking up. I know it's not an ex-girlfriend, and I know he's not cheating - I am positive he never even heard of her until she emailed him for a ride. So why in the hell would he lie about this?
All these "little white lies" over our relationship have really eroded my trust in him. What's funny is that I've never been a suspicious person until I entered this relationship. Stupid me, I used to blindly believe what my boyfriends would tell me. So the first time he lied about being with an ex-girlfriend, it was a slap in the face. I don't know what to do about this. I really don't trust him around other women anymore, and I hate feeling like this all the time.

Those aren't "white lies" IMO. "White lies" are when you tell your elderly aunt that dinner tastes wonderful when it doesn't--lies intended to SPARE someone's feelings, not DECEIVE them!
Your husband lies to deceive you, and to spare HIMSELF from any consequences of his less than appropriate actions. His morals and values say it's ok to lie to you under those circumstances. Is that acceptable to you?
I would highly recommend that you read "When Your Lover is a Liar" by Susan Forward. The book will give you a plan of action to follow. It was a huge help to me, and I hope you will find it to be a help also.
Sheri
I am in full agreement with Sheri (Northwestwanderer). Your husband isn't giving you "white lies" he's lying to you and he's done it all along. Not only that, even though he's learned that you don't want him to deceive you, he knows how you feel about not telling the truth, he continues to do so. And he does it on a variety of subjects and issues, not the least of them being women. Even if he were lying about non-important issues it would be a huge concern; if he'll lie to you about small issues, you can guarantee he'll lie to you about major issues and that makes lying on any level a very serious issue.
I'd like to strongly say that you were not "stupid" to trust previous boyfriends, you absolutely should be able to trust the man you're with, and you most of all you should always be able to trust the man who's your husband. You're turning into a suspicious person because you have every reason to disbelieve your husband -- every reason to belive he most likely is lying to you. Quite honestly, if you did believe him you wouldn't be taking very good care in protecting yourself, suspicion and disbelieving him is appropriate. But, of course, it's not healthy, not what a relationship and marriage should be and is continuing to erode your relationship, your emotional health and is damaging your belief and functionality in relationships overall.
I'm a supporter of having friends of the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean everyone has to. Since you made it clear that you weren't comfortable with him having female friends or at least being with them it seems that you would have pretty much realized from this vast difference that a relationship between the two of you wasn't right. Even if female friends was the only issue (and it isn't), that would seem to have jumped out as an important irresolvable issue. You're not going to convince him to end his friendships and he's not going to convince you that female friends are okay. Of course, the way he's handled this you have every right to suspect his "friendships" are more than "friends".
It seems that you and he are both avid backpackers, since you mentioned him camping and your nic is Traildiva, I'm curious as to why he's going on these trips without you? I'm also wondering why you married him knowing he had continually lied to you? How long have you been married? Does he lie about other things as well, or just these two issues? What does he say about all this when you confront him with what you know is the truth?
It sounds to me like he's along the lines of one of a few things (or maybe all); either he's a compulsive liar, he's a sex/porn addict (or serial cheater) and/or he has a sense of entitlement that says he can do whatever he wants and hiding it/lying about it to you is just fine. None of those scenarios is very good and all of them require his strong desire to change himself in order to improve and I haven't heard any mention of that. I know you've just given us the basics, and there may be much more information that would point to a specific problem or issue, or would give us a better idea of the whole picture, but those are my thoughts based on what you've said so far. For more of the criteria that would indicate he has a sex/porn addiction, I urge you to read through Is My Partner a Sex Addict? , located in our Information and Resources section. There are some indicators that might surprise you. You'll find the link to Families Damaged by Pornography board.
I think it will very likely come down to asking yourself what you want for your life, what you're willing to have in your life. You may have to take an honest look at him, his choices and actions and decide if living with him as he is is something you can do -- or want to do. I know you want him to stop lying, stop seeing other women, stop lying about porn, etc., but you can't make him do any of those things, and, since you've made your feelings on those issues known to him already and he continues to do them, you know quite clearly that it is not going to change. Life would be so great if we could make people do what we wanted them to do, but the only person we can control and make decisions for is ourselves. You can't stop him and you can't change him. What you can do is make decisions for yourself based on his actions; and that's exactly what you should do. It's easy to get stuck in hoping that things will change "tomorrow", but you can get stuck waiting for "tomorrow" day by day until decades have passed.
Traildiva, you have every right to be suspicious. You have every right to question and doubt everything he says and does. You should question and doubt him. It's appropriate. Unfortunately, it's also lousy and harmful to you to live in that kind of environment, you see what it's doing to you. You don't like it -- and you shouldn't.
I would suggest you put some heavy thought into your life, his actions and what you can or want to live with for the rest of your life. What would you want a girlfriend to do if this were her relationship, married or not? I haven't read the book Sheri suggested, but I have huge respect for her and, based on her recommendation, I'm sure the book is a good one. I'd also suggest you consider seeing a licensed therapist or counselor to help you deal with your situation and the damage it's doing to you.
You deserve better than this -- no one deserves this.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Understanding the Opposite Sex
Edited 7/25/2005 3:02 am ET ET by cl-2nd_life
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
"I'm a supporter of having friends of the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean everyone has to. Since you made it clear that you weren't comfortable with him having female friends or at least being with them it seems that you would have pretty much realized from this vast difference that a relationship between the two of you wasn't right. Even if female friends was the only issue (and it isn't), that would seem to have jumped out as an important irresolvable issue. You're not going to convince him to end his friendships and he's not going to convince you that female friends are okay. Of course, the way he's handled this you have every right to suspect his "friendships" are more than "friends"."
I don't have a problem with platonic female friends - but ex-girlfriends aren't your typical friend. Even that AskMen.com site tells men they cannot have a normal relationship with someone they've slept with and had emotional intimacy with. I never met any of these women, and I didn't know how much contact he had with them until later in our relationship. He swears they're just friends, but I really don't know of any male platonic friends that I tell how beautiful they are, or that we should meet behind my boyfriend's back because he doesn't approve of us camping together. Grr - sorry, just venting. This was a while ago, but it hasn't been resolved so it still really hurts.
"It seems that you and he are both avid backpackers, since you mentioned him camping and your nic is Traildiva, I'm curious as to why he's going on these trips without you? I'm also wondering why you married him knowing he had continually lied to you? How long have you been married? Does he lie about other things as well, or just these two issues? What does he say about all this when you confront him with what you know is the truth?"
Since I started backpacking with him, I've always been invited on his trips. I'm currently not able to go as far as he wants or as fast due to health issues, so I didn't go on this last one. I honestly thought this could be one trip he'd take that wouldn't result in drama.
The porn stuff he's finally given up, and I was really happy and proud of him for that. It was interfering with our "personal" life, and things improved after he stopped.
The incidents I originally posted about all took place over a little less than a year, and it was 2 years ago. I think it looks worse when I put it on paper, but I'm now seeing the impact his lying has taken on our relationship. We've been married for a little over year now, and things had been going really well for the past 5-6 months. But then he had to go and tell a stupid lie again, and all these horrible feelings came rushing back. I think he has a weak spot for women and that freaks me out because if put into a compromising situation, I don't think he'd take control to stop it.
Sorry if I'm rambling. I don't have any female friends that I would talk about my relationship to (they'd just take my side, and that's not what I want.).
What's behind his decision to give up porn? Did he do it because you didn't like it or did he do it because he didn't like it, didn't like what it was doing to him (or some variation) and wanted to change that part of himself? I ask because if he gave it up for you, chances are he didn't give it up at all. Porn use -- (porn addiction doesn't apply here) is a moral value and if his morals and values say it's okay, it's not likely he's going to cut himself off of something he likes and thinks is fine because someone else doesn't like it. That's pretty much true of all of us on any subject. Depending on his reasons for stopping porn use it's probably more likely he's made you think he's stopped and perhaps gotten better at hiding it than actually stopping. Not what you wanted to hear, I know, and maybe you don't think I'm right -- entirely possible since you know the whole situation and are a better judge of him.
You said this other women thing hasn't been a problem for two years. What's behind it stopping? Did you two discuss it and come to an understanding/agreement? Did opportunity stop presenting itself because you moved? I assume the two of you had talked about this issue when it arose, what did he have to say about it? And did it really go away or did he get better about hiding it? Truth is, he has a history of hiding "friendship" with women from you. Repeatedly. Even after being caught and even after knowing how you felt about it. The fact that it would go away for two years then reappear says something and it's not good. Either it never stopped, opportunity wasn't there until here again recently, he's gotten better at hiding it or something along those lines, but he's back to his old ways, making arrangements with women behind your back and no matter what the reason, it's not a good thing. Does he know you know about this latest one?
I hear what you're saying about it sounding worse on paper than it really is, but really, how good can it be when he hooked up with women behind your back, stroked them with "you're beautiful" at the least and continued to do so even after being confronted about it? It might sound bad on paper, but unless you've been dishonest (which I doubt) what it says on paper is the reality of it. There really isn't any excusing or defending it, it is just as bad as it sounds, wether he had affairs/sexual encounters or not. It's not right -- it's sooo not right. Honestly? I think I hear you backpedaling. If you are, I know you know that won't change the reality of your situation, much as you'd like it to. It sucks when things aren't as they should be, aren't as you'd like them to be and the worst part is, it's not in your control to *make* them be what you want.
Freaking because he told the lie again is perfectly understandable and I think, normal. If you didn't freak about it you should be worried. Yeah, it does bring up all that old stuff right back to the surface, right in your face, and those old feelings, angers, frustrations all come right along with it, just like it happened yesterday. I think it's especially typical to have those kind of recall of feelings when you didn't get resolution to the issues before or when you haven't worked through them in counseling or therapy. What's happening is a familiar scenario and those old feelings about it haven't changed. But boy, it feels awful when they all come back.
I suspect you felt my last answer might have been "tougher" than you wanted to hear (thereby ending that concern of friends who tell you what you want to hear happening around here!), but I don't think I've said anything that isn't real. This isn't "nothing", this is a big deal and it's serious. I suspect you haven't read the informational post I suggested, Is My Partner a Sex Addict? , I hope you do because you might be surprised what you find there. If it turns out to be his problem or a part of it, identifying it will only help recover from it. I'll add to that suggested article
Is It Cheating?
Is it just friends or infidelity?
You haven't rambled, not at all. It's important to get it all out, to explain the situation thoroughly and, if you need to, just vent. It's all important and it's all helpful. You have nothing to apologize, you haven't rambled anyway, not at all. Please feel free to "ramble as much and as often as you'd like, okay?
I guess the short response to you would be that I think a lot of the answers you're looking for depend on the reason for the absence of the problem for the last two years, his response to the problem and his response to your confronting this newest development with him. Have you? Does he know you know? Without knowing those kinds of things, it's impossible to have a good feel for what direction it looks like this is going. But no matter what the reason this problem stopped is, the fact that it's occurring again is not good.
What do you think?
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Understanding the Opposite Sex
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Well, my husband is no longer talking with me. I told him that I'd had it with the lying, and he states that he's never lied to me. But in the next breath he says that he would be more honest with me about women if I didn't "always accuse him of having an affair with them." I am frustrated beyond words right now. I've *never* accused him of having an affair with anyone, ever. My mind just doesn't jump there. He always pulls out this excuse when I catch him lying to me. (In fact, I even let him invite an ex to our wedding. Why? Because he was honest about her to me. It was a little odd, I thought, since they hadn't talked in years (mainly, as I understand it, because her husband didn't like her having a relationship with an ex :-p) but I think it shows I can be a reasonable and accomidating person if given the chance.)
I do think the reason these women issues have calmed down (until now) was because we moved away from the area of temptation. He had quite a few ex's living in the area we moved from, and the first ex we had a problem with moved to another state right after that incident. He stopped talking with the first ex over chat when I found out he was still having ocassional chats with her (including the one where she sent him pictures of herself and he called her beautiful - I know she was looking for an ego stroke and the fact that he can be played by women so well makes me sick to my stomach.)
The whole porn thing, I finally believe him now when he tells me he's given it up. I haven't seen any evidence that he is still using it. He gave it up because I asked him to. It was getting in the way of our sex life.
I'm at work now and getting myself too upset. I may have more to post later tonight after I see how the day goes.
you write: " Even that AskMen.com site tells men they cannot have a normal relationship with someone they've slept with and had emotional intimacy with."
I would not regard anything those immature little boys post at askmen.com with any seriousness. They all talk big talk, but in the end, they're a bunch of self absorbed, spoiled, foul-mouthed whiners who can't get their way with the smart women who diss them because they can see through them.
Back to you: While you were dating, this boyfriend repeatedly and unabashedly lied to you about who he was with. You married him knowing he would lie as naturally as drawing breath and forming his mouth to utter it. For whatever reason, being Mrs. Him was more important than being with a man who wouldn't lie to you--or being single and on solid emotional ground. He really doesn't have an impetus to change his ways and not lie because he knows you're not going to go anywhere. You've never made him face the consequences of his lying--and until that day comes, be prepared to be PO'd a whole lot more.
Obviously you know if in one breath he insists he doesn't lie and in the next he's saying he'd be more honest if.... he's lying, he knows it and he knows he's lying when he's saying it. But there's something that I think you're missing. He's using a diversion to get the focus off the real problem and off himself and he's doing it very successfully. Once you realize what's happening you're able to stop him from being successful. The subject you brought up was his lying. He responded by accusing you of "always accusing him of having an affair". You immediately jumped to your defense and were upset/angry/indignant that he would accuse you of such when it's not true. You argued about that for a while, he got mad and refused to talk anymore to you. Take a look at that Traildiva. He changed the subject to something that was a "hot button", sure to get you upset and fired up, diverted the subject from his lying to you and the real issue -- his lying -- was never discussed at all. He successfully diverted you off of it. My ex-husband was a master at it and it worked for him very well for a long time until I finally recognized it and ended it. If you're like me, you've been well conditioned to get off topic and "go with him" when he makes his statements and accusations. If that's so, it may not be easy, but ending your participation in it is possible and with a little focus and work you can be a rock. When I first started actively trying to stop his diversion, I found writing the topic down on a piece of paper that I carried with me helped, I could look down at it and it helped me remember what the real topic was in case I'd allowed myself to go off track. Whatever statement or other topic he brings up, you need to respond calmly with "We can talk about that later, right now we're talking about xxxxx" and repeat that every time he tries to throw you off track. If he starts getting off more subtly, seeming to still be on topic, the minute you realize you're off you can say, "We're getting off track. The topic is xxxx". Any other topics are not discussed until you're satisfied that the topic you brought to the table has been adequately addressed and moving on is appropriate. Not talking about another topic until the next day is often best, overloading on issues isn't helpful. Just be firm and don't waiver. He can't throw you off if you refuse to go. And until you discuss the subject you need to discuss it remains unresolved (and he remains off the hook, which is what he wants). Make sense?
If the problem has subsided because availability and opportunity hasn't presented itself, you know that there has been no "getting better" and the problem hasn't resolved, no improvement or changes have been made.
If you truly believe he's no longer looking at porn, that's fine, but I have to wonder how you can believe what you're being told by someone who chronically lies to you about things he does that you don't like? Not trying to start trouble here, but it would seem to me more likely that he's gotten better at hiding it and has learned how to mask the effects. I know I'm harping here, but the fact that porn caused a problem in your sex life is a further indicator of a sexual addiction problem. You may not realize, but just because he's been able to go a year without hooking up with women doesn't mean he's not an addict. Many people think the term addict means someone who has to have their "fix" of whatever their addiction is every day, nothing could be further from the truth. I hope you'll take a look at the link I suggested before to see if he matches the criteria.
He lies about women, did he lie about the porn too? Are there other things he lies about? Even small things that don't really amount to anything or is he very honest except for those select topics?
Please realize, that while he may be able to be "played" by women he invites it on himself, seeks it out and puts himself in positions that it can happen. This is his choice, his decision. He doesn't have to make the calls, send the emails, go to IM and chat rooms. He chooses and invites this and it's inappropriate that he does it. I'm saying that because it almost sounds like you're trying to put the blame on these women rather than leaving it squarely with him where it belongs. I do understand putting the focus of your anger on someone else, I absolutely hated a friend of my ex-husband's because every time he called my husband would go off with him, regardless of any plans we'd had and regardless of what I wanted. Fact was, it was my husband's choice to go, he could have easily said no but he didn't. Even though I knew that in the back of my mind, it didn't stop me from really hating and blaming the friend.
I'm sorry you're so upset, but it's perfectly understandable that you would be. How are you doing now?
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Understanding the Opposite Sex
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
How did things go last night, Traildiva? How are you doing?
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Understanding the Opposite Sex
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"