Can you suggest a book for my bf and I?
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| Fri, 07-29-2005 - 9:00pm |
I'm looking for some suggestions for a book for my bf and I to read. A little background - we've been together 6 months (I know, when couples typically find they may not be compatible) and recently things have gotten pretty conflict-ridden. It seems like there are times (fairly regularly) where we just misunderstand everything the other is saying. He has more of a temper than I do, so he usually gets mad during these times, where I usually get sad. The result is he raises his voice and gets sarcastic and I kind of shut down because I feel like I'm being attacked, which makes him agrier, which makes me sadder, etc.
My bf is a very confident man - this comes off as arrogance at times. The reason I add that is because that "confidence" leads him to focus a lot on what I need to change, not on what WE need to work on. Once he calms down, he's more open to compromise and talk about what WE can do to improve things. But still, the next time he gets mad, he's back to what I need to change, how I need to learn...The thing is though, that I think I've gotten better at listening to him and being receptive to his concerns, while I think he really needs some help seeing how his actions are not productive and are sometimes hurtful. Either way, WE need to work on things.
We've had several conversations about all this, but we don't seem to really be improving. So, I thought we could try reading a book about fair fights, conflict management, something like that, together. I brought this up to him and he said he would do it with me, as long as he had some input on which book. So, I'm just wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
Thanks in advance!

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First of all, I want to make sure that his reaction doesn't include name calling, isn't demeaning and doesn't put you down, and isn't threatening in words actions or stance. If it is, I wouldn't be thinking of this differently and wouldn't be suggesting the same kinds of things. And yes, you're right, six months is a typical time for problems to come up, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're doomed, though it does mean you should pay attention and make sure you don't stay in a relationship that's just not working or right. With the kind of problem you're describing, a relationship can't really grow, you're stuck where you are until you can resolve it and move on, but it seems like you already have a pretty good idea of that.
If you're thinking he's wrong in telling you what you need to change, you're right. Compromise is very important in relationships, but changing how you are or who you are isn't possible, and isn't appropriate. Relationships are about being with someone who is right for you, not about finding someone and trying to mold them into what fits your needs. Even if you could mold someone, what have you got? Someone who isn't who they really are, rather someone who's playing a part to be what you want. No thanks, I'll take the real deal, please!
Off the top I'd recommend " Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus " by Dr. John Gray . While I don't think there's much about conflict resolution, there is a lot about the different ways men and women operate and there's an incredibly good (in my opinion) chapter on the difference in communication styles of men and women. My experience is that while reading the columns "What women say", "What they mean", and "How men interpret what they've said" (and visa versa) is right on for what women mean in the statements he uses as examples. Every male I've looked at that chapter with has just as completely agreed with how men interpret those statements. I'll keep thinking and see if I can come up with other books that would fit what you're looking for, I can probably think of some I've heard of, but won't recommend a book I haven't read or that hasn't been recommended by someone whose opinion I know and respect. In the meantime, check out the following articles on conflict resolution from our Information and Resources section, I think you'll find them very helpful:
Ten Rules For Fair Fighting
Verbal Fencing With Someone You Love
I should also tell you that "Ten Rules For Fair Fighting" was given to me by a therapist friend who recommends it to her clients.
If I come up with more, I'll be back to post them, check back, others will likely have some suggestions for you too.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Understanding the Opposite Sex
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Thanks cl-2nd_life for the suggestions. To answer your questions, he has in the past been hurtful in a way that was unacceptable (calling me selfish, asking if I don't know what it means to give, telling me if I can't do what he needs, I'm a selfish, inconsiderate, bi#$@ and he doesn't need me) and I let him know, after he calmed down, that was unacceptable and he apologized for hurting me, told me that those were just angry words, and said he would work on it. Since then (which was about a month ago), he still loses his temper in an unproductive manner, but does not usually berate me. I think he knows that I won't accept it.
I also wanted to comment on what you said about changing a person. When my bf focuses on what I need to learn and what I need to change, he's not talking about changing who I am - he's talking about me learning to communicate and handle things better. And, he's not always wrong when he's saying I should do something differently. My point was more that I wish he could talk about what WE need to work on together, and accept some responsibility for what HE can do differently, rather than immediately putting everything on MY shoulders.
Anyway - thank you, and any other suggestions are appreciated as well!
A few books that might be worth looking into:
Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil
Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John Gottman (obviously you're not married but I think the principles apply to any committed relationship)
Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix
Sheri
Ismileimfine, I know that I don't have a lot of information on the specific incidents you're talking about, but I have to say, based on what you've said your boyfriend is totally out of line. I understand that he doesn't berate you personally any more and that's good; but he flies off the handle, argues in an unproductive way and still occasionally berates you (I'm having to imagine how the rest of his "unproductive manner" is) and still has the guts to tell you what you should change and how you can learn to communicate and handle things better? Please. He needs to take a good long look in the mirror, get a grip and deal with his own behavior. He has no business telling anyone else what they should do to better communicate with him until he's communicating in an appropriate and productive manner himself.
If you don't mind my asking, how old are the two of you? Is this your first relationship? Your stagename, "Ismileimfine" would suggest that you're trying your best to be okay no matter what you really feel, or something along those lines, am I close? How are you doing in this relationship? How are you feeling? With and without the fighting I mean. Are you happy or are you trying to make him happy? Is he a giving guy, emotionally I mean?
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Understanding the Opposite Sex
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Thanks cl - I really do appreciate your input. I think it its helpful to hear a different perspective, even if its not what I want to hear. ;)
To answer your questions - my bf is 24, I'm 23. No, this is not the first relationship for either of us. What I mean by "unproductive" is simply that instead of talking about something, his attitude immediately goes on the defesive - he may get sarcastic, he may raise his voice. Its about the attitude though - I want to calmly discuss something and he is not often able to do that. And you're right - he is at times completely out of line.
I am a believer that our actions, as well as our perceptions, are shaped by our experiences...my bf and I have had very different experiences, especially with regards to our families (he had a pretty bad childhood, while mine was your everyday, all-american family situation). I know this doesn't justify his actions, but I'm willing to not give up on us if I can see that he's trying to adjust his behavior. As of yet, I haven't determined that either way, but my eyes are open.
My bf is wonderful aside from this issue. He is giving, loving, affectionate, and much more emotionally-open than I am. With the fighting, I'm feeling on the fence about the whole thing, but only because I don't want to spend the rest of my life with this issue plaguing us.
I also think its important to keep in mind that I need to work on some things that are unproductive and that he points out to me. For instance, I am very argumentative, and it just drives him nuts sometimes. Its something that is very hard for me to change, but I'm trying. I think the two of us need to communicate better - no one person has to make changes on their own. We both have some things to work on (hence the book idea).
Anyway, like I said, I really appreciate your input. Its very nice to hear your perspective (I've read a lot of your posts, and your opinion, I think, is quite valuable). Feel free to let me know if it sounds like my head is buried in the sand! :)
BTW - My screen name is derived from lyrics from one of my favorite Killers songs - "I look at you and smile because I'm fine". I'm not sure there's any meaning there - I just wanted a confidential name, and I love that song. :)
Thanks for the nic explanation, I'm a big Killers fan too :)
It sounds like you've got a pretty good thought process going on through this, but do be sure that no part of your intention is to "save him", help him resolve his awful childhood or help him see how wonderful life can be. I know you said you can see he's making progress and that's good, it's the only way it can be. I agree that people are shaped based on their experiences, it's why abuse and dysfunction continue, kids learn how to be adults by learning from the example their own parents show them. How cliched is it for a girl to swear she'll never be with an abusive man only to find years down the road that that's exactly where she is. She may not like abuse, but it's the kind of relationship she can relate to, the kind she knows how to react in. The kind she's rehearsed for and been trained for. That should serve as every reason to choose your partner very carefully. Overcoming the lessons learned in childhood is difficult and it can only come from a deep desire for a person to change him or herself. Wanting to change for someone else isn't enough. It takes hard work and facing and resolving some very difficult issues to achieve, and it may not be possible to be completely free of it. Is your boyfriend working with a therapist to overcome his issues?
For you be sure you have some timelines set up, if you haven't seen real progress by the dates you've chosen, you likely need to consider how much time you're willing to spend in a situation where little to no progress is being made. We often hear women say they don't want to end a relationship because it's a "waste of the time they've invested". Spending more months or years in a relationship that isn't what your really want it to be won't make it better, but it will waste more of your time. Like hating to stop beating your head against a brick wall because you've been beating it there for so long - lol.
Anyway, that's just a reminder, it sounds like I'm not saying anything you don't already know. Just don't let him go off on you, let him know his intent on fixing you is inappropriate and have some clear boundaries set that you will not allow and stick to them.
Good luck!
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Crisis Center: Rape and Suicide
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
OK, I'm feeling really discouraged. Last night I called my bf around 8 and he said he'd be over in a bit. 10 o'clock rolls around and he's still not here. So I called him and asked him if he was still coming over, and he said he'd be over in a bit. I was irritated. When he finally got here at 10:40, I had decided to not bring it up, no big deal (because it wouldn't be very nice if the first thing I said to him when he walks in the door is 'why weren't you here sooner?'). I figured maybe later I would ask him if he could let me know a little more accurately when I should expect to see him.
So he got here and could tell within minutes I was irritated and got mad that I was giving him attitude. I told him I didn't mean to, and then told him (very calmly) that I was irritated because I had been waiting for him for almost 3 hours. He continued to yell about me giving him attitude, so I told him I wasn't going to be a part of this conversation. He got up and yelled that he was leaving then because he can't do anything right - he didn't get here when I wanted him to, he doesn't handle things the way I want him to (these things were said sarcastically). I told him (still calmly - no sarcasm) I wouldn't care that he came over at 10:40 if he would have told me so I wouldn't have been waiting for him. He stormed out saying that I need to learn.
Only once did I raise my voice or say anything that wasn't geared towards resolving - I yelled at him as he was walking out the door that he needs to learn to stop telling me what to learn. I decided last night that I wouldn't call him (because when these kinds of things happen, its usually me who chases him out, or calls him in the morning telling him I could have handled things differently, and getting him to talk about what he could have done differently). I was so hoping (though not expecting) I'd get an apology from him today, but that didn't happen. Is this a silly game that I'm playing (not calling him)? Its possible that he'll be very apologetic when we talk. I just don't know how to handle this so that we can still try to move forward. Any advice?
I wouldn't be able to deal with him yelling. What's there to YELL about? Can't he discuss things calmly like an adult?
It sounds like there are some basic incompatibilities here that are unlikely to be solved by reading a book. Sorry.
I doubt he will apologize, btw, so you may be waiting a long time if you don't call him and grovel.
Sheri
You were upset last night, and you had every right to be. It is very, very, disrespectful to be kept waiting for hours. He told you a time he would be over, he had an obligation to be there at that time, or to call you and let you know it wouldn't be possible after all. I doubt he would have treated a friend or coworker that way. You were disregarded because you were lower on the priority list. Instead of allowing yourself to be disrespected and perhaps give him and yourself the message that you're not worthy of better treatment (because you accept it) how about setting a time frame in your mind for how long you'll accept waiting without a call from him. Personally, I think waiting a half an hour without a call is more than enough. If he's not there by then, leave -- go do something, whatever you want, but let him know that you do indeed have a life, it does not revolve around him and if he's not going to show up in a reasonable amount of time, you're going to go live your life on your own. That should be done out of spite or revenge, it should be done without malice and your explanation should be delivered calmly and without anger. Personally, if my guy was to be at my house at 8 and hadn't shown by 10 I'd tell him not to bother. If he showed up at my door (assuming I was still home), I'd turn him away. Honest. I'd tell him I was in the middle of something, had just drawn a bath or something, but coming in would not be an option. I am no ones toy who sits on a shelf until he decides to grace me with his presence. You are being disrespected, Ismileifine, you're allowing it and you're accepting it. It's not acceptable.
When you say you wonder why you make him mad, huge red flags are flying like crazy for me. You're thinking like an abuse victim and that should scare you. The fact that he acts like a verbal and emotional abuser should scare you even more. Honestly, it sounds like you're fast approaching a very bad situation and you're playing out a role, falling into a mindset that will take you to a very awful place that you don't want to go. You don't make him mad. This isn't your fault. The incident you described is another example of what concerned me before. He focuses on what you should change, what you're doing wrong when the fact is, he's the one who's wrong, who had serious behaviors he needs to change. He's showing you he's not accepting responsiblity for his actions, instead, he puts the blame on you. And it doesn't belong there. He's not looking to change the relationship, to grow and adapt, to improve himself, he's looking to change you and that should scare you big time. If he turns this around to be your fault, the focus of the issue and the problem shifts off him and onto you. He's off the hook, he doesn't have to admit guilt, blame, apologize or look at changing. Nope, he gets off scott free and you're the one who gets blasted. You got blasted because he kept you waiting for two hours. Let me tell you, that's classic abusive behavior, honest. Wondering here, you said his childhood was bad. Waere his mother or father abusive, verbally or physically?
Sweetie, this is bull. You're being treated badly, abusively. Really. He's bad news and you're going down a bad path. Verbal and emotional abuse are hardest to recognize, even when you're in it. Many don't realize theirs were abusive situations until they're out of them, looking back. Yelling doesn't seem "so bad", there are no bruises, no broken bones. Verbal and emotional abuse, however, have been found to be more damaging than physical abuse. I'd ask that you take a look at a few links, just to check it out:
Signs of Potential Abuse: Need to Know
General Characteristics of Verbal Abuse
Power of verbal abusers reality
These come from Domestic Abuse Board’s Homepage , a site you should check out, there is a wealth of information there, and lots more informational articles than I offered. I'm betting you'll find many things that are familiar in many of the links that don't seem to be about verbal or emotional abuse at all. Please also consider checking out the Dealing With Domestic Abuse board. Post your situation on that board and see what they think of your situation, they aren't interested in labeling everything as abuse and will give you their honest thoughts. since they've all been in or are in abusive situations, they're also very good as recognizing the signs and early indications that they didn't recognize at the time in their own situations. They're a great group of women and the cl's are great too. Post your latest explanation for their thoughts or just read and lurk if you're more comfortable. But do check it out. Another website to gauge your relationship health on is here:Is Your Relationship Healthy?
Incredibly insightful reading material: “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft Lundy Bancroft is a therapist who works exclusively with abusive men. He explains very well what goes into their thinking, how it confuses and entraps women. You may be able to pick up a copy at your library.
Another way to approach this is if he wants to change, great, but you'll need to shelve your relationship until he's successfully changed, no way should you continue to be subjected to that kind of treatment, it's detrimental to your emotional well being and slants your perspective on relationships every time it happens. It sets you up to accept further abuse and a more abusive relationship. Conditioning. Tell him once he's sucessfully (in the therapists opinion) completed therapy to deal with his issues (with a counselor or therapist who is certified in abuse) and has maintained his new lifestyle for a period of time that satisfies the liklihood that the changes are permanent (six months or more) you'll be willing to reconsider starting again -- slowly. If he refuses, you know what his level of dedication is, and you're saving yourself from a continuation of repeated behavior. I have to tell you though, the rate of abusive men who sucessfully complete treatment is between 1 and 3%. Not encouraging odds, I know. I suspect too that your boyfriend won't see his actions as abusive, I expect he'll continue to maintain they're not his fault at all. It's a typical mindset. If you think I'm way off the mark and way over reacting, post on the abuse board for their opinion and pick up that book. I'm betting you'll be amazed what you read there. This is not a good situation for you or any other woman to be in at all.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Crisis Center: Rape and Suicide
Edited 8/4/2005 5:10 am ET ET by cl-2nd_life
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
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