CL-2nd life...I'd really like your input
Find a Conversation
CL-2nd life...I'd really like your input
| Wed, 08-17-2005 - 10:22pm |
I'm just looking for a different perspective here (I've been posting on the dv board, which has been helpful, but I'd just like to hear your thoughts). My bf is still out of town (for about a week now) and we really haven't had a productive conversation since my last post on this board. We've talked only a couple times since he left, both of those times he was happy and excited to talk to me while I was kind of neutral). He got upset with me last night because he called and was very happy to talk to me and I sounded miserable. He basically got mad, told me he's had enough and I make him miserable, and broke up with me. I can understand why he was so frustrated with me...I'd be mad too if I was always happy to talk to him and he was "neutral". So what I'm wondering is this - do you think its a bad idea for me to get the ball rolling, kind of in the fashion of "I'll make a deal with you - I can and will be happy to talk to you and see you; you tell me you'd like to change the way you treat me when conflict arises". I'm not saying I want to just give in (because I do feel stongly that the way he treats me at times is very innappropriate) - I just want to see if maybe I can be the one who initiates things getting better. Do you think this sounds foolish???

Yes Ismileimfine, I think what your suggesting is very foolish. I know it's hard to look at things from an objective viewpoint when you're in the middle of it, and when you're in an abusive situation it's even harder because you're dealing with confusing/conflicting actions and messages from your guy that keep you confused, feeling guilty and doubting yourself. But, try to take a step back and reverse this situation. If your boyfriend felt you treated him abusively, disrespectfully, etc., would you approach him as though he were stupid, crazy, ridiculous or would you listen to what he had to say, consider his feelings and reassess how you treated him? From then on would you occasionally poke fun at his point of view, sneer at his feelings? Would you, after incidents that enflame the situation, further violate and disregard him, treat him as though he were the one who was wrong, be exasperated with his very valid feelings and, instead of approaching what you'd done wrong, validating that he'd been treated badly and make honest efforts to make amends and make real efforts to change how you treat him would break up with him because he's not in a great mood when you call? Ismileimfine, he's abusive, plain and simple. Every action, every move he makes shows it more and more. He doesn't think what he's doing is wrong, he things you're wrong. He's proven he doesn't intend to change, he continues to treat you in the same disrespectful manner -- even making fun of your concerns and your feelings on how he treats you. If he was concerned that he was out of line, if he didn't like what he was doing, how he was acting and if he was uneasy with his thought process, he'd take action to change it, he'd treat this -- and you -- seriously. What he's done instead is to belittle you about your objections to how he treats you, and in the process is avoiding the real subject (you're busy defending your stand so the subject isn't him) and he continues to keep you in a submissive role in the relationship. He breaks up with you because he thinks you'll come running back, and when you do he'll be even more in control than he was before. The message you'll send him is that you'll accept that treatment and the message you'll send yourself will be the same. Yes, I know you're thinking of offering him a compromise, happy attitude for change, but in reality what you're saying is that you'll still accept it. He'll be different for a bit, a very short bit, then he'll be right back to where he was and worse. Fact is, you should be saying, "I will NOT accept this kind of treatment from anyone, ever and the fact that you'd treat me like this means I cannot continue in this relationship, period." Instead you're in effect begging him to tell you he'll change so the relationship can continue. He's proven himself over and over and has indicated pretty plainly that he disregards your concerns, why would you think he'd be willing to do hard work to change who he is and how he thinks when he doesn't even buy into it? Why would you consider making a deal with someone who continues to disregard, devalue and disrespect you?
I really urge you to pick up a copy of “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft tomorrow. Lundy Bancroft is a therapist whose practice is limited to abusive men. This book is written to help women understand abusive men, how they think, why they do what they do. His book is entirely taken from what his clients have taught him about what goes on in the minds of abusive men. It will be very informative for you.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Crisis Center: Rape and Suicide
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
I don't think you're being foolish, Ismileimfine, I think partly you're confused because these kinds of situations are confusing and cloudy (which is why so many women get trapped in abusive relationships) and partly because you really just want him to stop this ridiculous behavior and be the great guy you had in the beginning. Unfortunately, what you're seeing now is much closer to the real him than the nice front he was putting on at the start. In every new relationship we all try to show our best side, and in thinking about abusive-type behavior, it's very necessary for them to not show their real selves from the start -- face it, how long would you have continued to see him if he acted like this at the start?
It may not feel like it, but the best thing that could happen is for him to decide it's not worth the fight to "keep you in your place" and move on. What you now know is exactly what his future girlfriends have coming. They deserve your sympathy and your prayers and the hope that they're strong enough to get as well.
I really do hope you read the book I suggested, it will answer a lot of the questions you have, not just about him but and about your thinking and confusion too.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Crisis Center: Rape and Suicide
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Yes, I know what you mean, understanding what's going on does nothing to help the hurt.
I believe the book you mentioned is one that's recommended on the DA board, so that's a great one too. Why Does He Do That is available at my public library (three copies) and a quick check found it's available on Ebay, Borders.com, Barnesnoble.com and Amazon.com. Since it's available at Borders and Barnes & Noble online, I'm sure it could be ordered at their stores as well.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Crisis Center: Rape and Suicide
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=iv-rldomesting&msg=25291.18&ctx=0
CL 2nd Life - I know you're probably busy with posters on your own board, but I so value your input and would really appreciate if you could take a look. Thanks.
Ismileimfine, you need to know that I'll always be there to answer you, I'm never too busy for that, even though you're going to hate what I have to say.
I guess the first thing is I wonder how he came about this incredible revelation and change. It was just a week ago that he still thought your opinion and your stand were ridiculous and he broke up with you because he didn't want to deal with you not being in a good mood when he called. In your post on the DV board you said he understands that you can't just "flip a switch" and change your feelings/trust level. By the same token, he can't just "flip a switch" either, having a total turnaround to what how he's treated you and it's respectful and appropriateness isn't a "switch-flippable" item either. So I guess, how is it that it's reasonable you wouldn't be able to change yet he supposedly has? What does he say is the reason for his sudden new total change in perspective? How is it that you were stupid, ridiculous and exaggerating just a week ago yet now you are right and he was treating you badly? And exactly what is his plan? How does he intend to go about changing his behavior and what he thinks about his entitlement vs women's entitlement? Saying you intend to change is quite different than having a plan to make it happen. We all have things we'd like to improve, how many of those changes get made without a plan? A few things I should have asked before I made that statement is how long has he been treating you abusively (understanding you didn't wake up one morning to his berating you, it almost certainly came on slowly), how long into the relationship can you pinpoint its presence? You mentioned previously that he had a bad childhood, but didn't say whether there was abuse of any kind involved (either towards him or that he lived with)? Do you know any of his ex-girlfriends and is it possible for you to talk to them about the way he treated them? His behavior was about more than just "conversations that got ugly and tangled, he disregarded and disrespected you in ways beyond conversations; when he showed up at your house and was angry with for being upset at having waited for him for hours, and again when he returned to your house drunk and reacted with anger and blame when you didn't "perform" as he wanted. That's not a bad pattern of communication, that's a mindset of what he believes he's entitled to and what he believes you (women) are entitled to. Like you were told on the DA board, only 1% of abusers actually do change, and that is thru a batterer's intervention program and extensive counseling and they HAVE to be willing and devoted in doing so - he's had none of that, and even if he had, 1% success rate says the chance of his changing is virtually zero. And, like you were also told, abusers will always sweet talk you and convince you that they are changing in order to keep you because they know they are losing control. One more pattern: seven out of ten times, victims go back to their abusers.
So, what do I really think? I really think he's doing what abusers typically do and telling you what he thinks will get you back. I think he'll play the part for a while then slowly he'll slide back into the same old same old. I think it's very likely that you'll not recognize the small shifts until you're stuck back in the middle of it and/or you'll get stuck into the pattern of finding a reason why "this time" wasn't so bad or was excusable and will find reasons to give him "one more chance" over and over until you've been there for a long time. You may be like me and look at how much time he's spent being "good" vs. "this one slip", take the "good time" as reason to believe it's getting better and that you should support his efforts and not walk away from him when he's been "trying so hard" and "doing so good up until this slip". I think once you're in it it's much harder to get yourself out, much harder to see things clearly -- especially when you're being "brainwashed" in a relationship that quietly gives you the message that you're wrong, exaggerating, over-reacting, etc. I think it go back to him says you don't think it was really abuse, because if you know the stats on abusive men you know that changing isn't something that's going to happen; assuming you wouldn't knowingly go back to abuse would indicate you're agreeing with him that it never really was abuse in the first place. Aren't you sorry you asked? Have you checked your library for a copy of "Why Does He Do That?" yet?
I think if you agree to try again you do so as you've indicated, with firm boundaries set up, absolute lines that cannot be crossed. Write them out so you can refer to them and so that you won't be able to hedge on them and will follow them to the letter. Say what you won't accept out loud (I know you already have), but tell others (a trusted friend or two is fine) and post your "demands" on the DA board. Being open and honest about what you've said you absolutely will not tolerate, then updating those who know about the situation will help keep you honest to yourself. I wonder how you'll gauge his behavior. One wrong word and you'll be gone? One wrong statement? One wrong argument? And if those seem too harsh, how many before it's too many? What if he's on the line of "too many", then goes six months before doing it again, does he get "credit" for his "good time"? Silly questions maybe, but belive me, I've walked that line and that's the kind of justification and decision making it comes down to. And every time you decide that this "one time" is forgivable, your subconsciously telling yourself that this is acceptable to you.
Sorry I'm not more optimistic. I think he's already shown you who he is, what he thinks your (a woman's) place in a relationship is and what he's capable of and I don't think that changes in the course of a week.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Crisis Center: Rape and Suicide
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Sorry I asked...No. Hate what I hear...yes. :)
To answer your questions...I'm not certain that he ever experienced abuse (dad was absent from the start, mom was into drugs and the kids were taken away when he was about 8, at which point he went to live with his nearly-a-stranger dad across the country, stayed for about a year but dad's wife didn't want him there and made that clear, she gave dad an ulimatum, either my bf leaves or she leaves, so he left and lived with his grandpa ever since). I don't know and can't talk to any of his exes.
The yelling, blowing up, berating was happening after maybe 2 months, but very sporadically (maybe a total of twice - not frequently enough to concern me). We've been together for two of his law school terms now - I guess looking back the abuse got a little more frequent at the end of the first term (exam time). Then, at the end of the second term is when it got really frequent and bad (which is when I started posting here). I do know that its not a constant thing - he's not constantly disregarding, disrespecting, or criticizing, its when there's conflict, or when he's not getting what he wants (e.g. he comes over happy to see me and I'm in a grouchy mood about work that day - he'll get mad because I'm not in the same mood as him). But, this kind of thing didn't really happen until end of his second term. I use his terms as a timeline because I think it has a lot to do with the way he handles stress (i.e. exam time)(not that thats an excuse, but possibly a reality) and I think that my true test of if he's changing will be the end of this next term (December). It will be long enough from now that he'll have time to have slipped back into his old behaviors and I'm pretty sure thats what triggered it getting so bad last month (again, not excusing his behavior, I just think the two things are related).
We haven't really talked about a plan, although we have talked about the way we'll communicate. For instance, if he is upset about something he will just flat out tell me so and not play any games with me so we can talk about it in a healthy way.
I'm not sure what triggered his change of heart - I'm almost thinking its not necessarily a change of heart, but a swallowing of pride. Maybe he really knew all along he was being mean and not having me for a while scared him into being a man about it?? I guess he talked to his grandma too, whom he cherishes and respects. He didn't give her details, but she told him to knock it off, quit being so difficult.
There's a lot here that I don't know. I don't know what I'll do if he slips up once, then twice. I guess all I can do is keep my eyes WIDE open and TRUST MY GUT (which is what led me here in the beginning).
Thanks for all of your kind words and advice. I'll be around.
.
Let us know how it goes, okay? I'll be wondering how you're doing!
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Crisis Center: Rape and Suicide
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"