Not sure you all can help....
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| Wed, 09-21-2005 - 2:00am |
I guess part of me needs to just talk and I don't know who to talk to. So I thought I'd try you all.
I am a very religious person. DH and I met at a religious school. We belong to the same faith. We agreed that our faith was our lifestyle and central to who we were and to what our family would be.
Now fast forward to this weekend. We had an issue come up Sunday and I asked DH a question and "stumbled" across the real answer. Nothing catastrophic, but something that we both had agreed on to do wasn't getting done, even though he kept misleading me into thinking it was taken care of. This upset me very much because when we agree on something, especially something that deals with our faith, it isn't a "voluntary" thing that you just do when you feel the urge or it's easy. You do it, period.
So I was having problems with it and not sure how to deal with it all. Basically DH told me that this was the way it was going to be now, no discussions, and if I tried to do it on my own behind his back, we would have major problems. (I don't take kindly to being talked to like that but I did really well and didn't go ballistic.)
Monday he comes home from work and I asked him another question, trying to figure out why he didn't feel X was important. And that's when he lays the load on me. Seems he's decided that our religion is a good religion but he doesn't have to live it's tenets. Just the ones he wants to. When he wants to. (Keep in mind that this is my LIFE, one that we shared together.) He doesn't believe in XYZ, very specific tenets to our religion. But he wants to just continue to float along anyway. I have a problem with this. One, it's more than just a religion, it's been our way of life. This permeates everything I do and guides mem literally, in everything I do. Two, I would rather him find something he believe in and can live with conviction then just stay where he's at cause it's easier. Plus, it sucks as an example of what type of person to be for the kids. Three, he wants me to believe the way he does (though he understands that he doesn't get to push these ideas on the kids unless I were to change my mind.) Four, this suddenly changes our whole marriage dynamic. Something near and dear to me that I shared with DH is gone. And he doesn't understand why this would be a problem. I told him that our religion is the glue that holds my life together, and while I can still share pieces of my life with him, I can't share one of the biggest and dearest parts cause he just doesn't "get it" anymore. And he really doesn't.
I could tell that there was something bugging him for awhile. And I don't necessarily think this is the something, I think this is what he's doing to cope with the something. But I don't know how to cope with this. I don't know how to relate. For 10 years we've had this shared thing and in 24 hours he's taken it away. And he didn't even bother to talk to me about it until now.
I'm not a hard-nosed. (Well, not really, though it might sound like it.) There is room in my world for questioning and doubt and searching out answers. he knows this. (He went ballistic once, right after we got married, when I asked a question that smacked of questioning to him.) I like knowledge, I like learning. I'm not a you can't question and still love God kind of person. But he didn't bring anything up til he had made his choice. I didn't get to help or have any input, and I'm sorry, but this affects me.
Add on top that I have problems with my pg (I have less than a month left) and one of my problems is hypertension. Which is why I disappeared in August, I was on bedrest because it wasn't being controlled well. And add all this stress and I'm not handling things well. Plus I'm uber-hormonal. And I feel like my world has been turned upside down and I don't know how to handle all this.
How do I create a good marriage when I've already been married for 9 years and the playing field just suddenly and drastically changed into something I would have avoided like the plague? How do I connect when a fundamental part of who I am can't be shared now? How to I accept him and what he believes without condoning it? I'm not one who can compromise on my beliefs, I can't say, okay, this commandment isn't important so it's okay not to keep it. How do I handle all this with my kids?
Jen

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I am not a hugely religious person, but I do have some experience. I was actually the church secretary at my church for a year, was a Sunday School teacher (yeah, yeah, I know, and you thought I was the anti-Christ! Well, you're not alone!) and while I'm not Catholic, my kids went to a Catholic school for seven years, though that doesn't really count for religious experience, now does it? Just wanted you to know I'm not a stranger to spirituality and faith. I'm just going to ramble a bit and hope I make some sense to you, heck, I'll be happy if my paragraphs are appropriate!
I've known folks who handled their own beliefs on religion quite differently from others. There are the couples who always attend services together and are active in other areas of the church, I've known couples where one was very devout, attending services once or twice a week, being quite active in roles within the church, while their spouse attended Easter and Christmas services only. In one family I know, the wife is devoutly Episcopal while the husband is devoutly Catholic. They have three kids who are active and attend both churches, acting as alter boys, etc. I can't tell you exactly how they worked it out, but I can tell you that sometimes he attends Episcopal services with her and likewise she attends his church with him on occasion. It's much more common that they each attend their own church, one child attending church with dad, the other with mom. Obviously if the kids are on the roster for alter duty that's the church they attend that Sunday. Both partners are very good about being active in each other's churches, helping out when needed, attending functions, etc. They make it work and work well. I think the kids are getting a great look at differing faiths and tenets (although Episcopal is kind of "Catholic Lite"), they're seeing that individual choice is important and respected and they're more able to make decisions for their own faith of choice as adults. What I think I'm hearing you say though is that your husband has lost his strong faith period, he's not looking for a new church, he's just kind of checking out of the one you've shared for so long, yes? If that's the case, what I said won't be a great comfort, although hopefully it will remind you that there is more than one way to deal with differing faith -- or differing levels of faith, and it can still work.
I doubt that this is something he purposely kept from you, Jen. My guess is that it crept in slowly, like any of us would on most things we are just beginning to maybe think differently about, we mull it over in our heads rather than verbalize our thinking. Especially if he thought you would be upset, concerned or unhappy by it, he'd likely choose to keep his initial thinking to himself. It probably grew slowly without him really making the conscious connection that he was truly changing his thinking. I know it feels like he's dumped this huge change of life thinking on you, and in fact he has, but it probably didn't shake down that way and it probably wasn't "kept from you". How many times have you been thinking about something you know your husband wouldn't be thrilled with, you aren't usually eager to offer it up until it is set in your head and/or becomes necessary. It's possible too that he chose to hold off in consideration of your pregnancy, the complications, hormones, etc. Okay. Enough attempts to excuse him :)
You've always been together in your faith and have always pictured the road ahead as being the same, it seems that's not how it's going to be. I know this feels huge to you right now and I know it shakes up your world in a very big way. But I think it'll be okay, I think it'll end up being just a bumpy spot on the road that you'll get through and find that smooth spot again; I think you'll find a way to make it work. It feels huge to you right now because it's new and it's altered your view of what life would be like in the future with him quite a bit. Right now all you know is that what you thought would be won't, how it will be is totally clouded over, impossible to see. You'll find a way to make this work, you'll find your way together, you will. It'll just take some time. He's announced something that he's not completely clear on yet (betcha) and you don't know how that will fit with your beliefs, your expectations, how you've seen your marriage, your future, etc. Like everything else in life (pregnancy, for example), this is a process and you're at the beginning of it. Give yourself time to absorb what you've just discovered. Like anything that's just been learned, it's huge, a real shock and overwhelming but time will soften that and once you've had time to accept it and let it sink in, you'll be ready to take a look at how the two of you will move forward with this and how you will deal with it as a family. Like everything else, you'll learn it as it goes, find things that work, things that don't, and will revamp a few times before you find something that will fit. One step at a time is the only way we can deal with anything. Taking a look at the whole picture is overwhelming, especially when it's completely new. You can't fix the whole picture in one felled swoop anyway, so don't even try. Just take it today and deal with tomorrow when it gets here. It will fall into place, you will find a way to make it work. All is not lost, it's just going to be different than you'd originally thought. Yeah, I know, I hate change too. But life does change, every minute of every day, this is just one of those minutes.
Sorry to hear about your hypertension. No computer because of bedrest? LAPTOP! LOL! (and yeesh, how did you handle the kids? No small feat there!) Huge hugs, Jen.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Sexual Pleasure
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Religious tolerance....one of my passions :-)
I have to say up front, I find it very hard to comment without knowing what ideals he has changed. If it's something that directly effects you (for example, he wants contraception and you don't believe in it) I could feel your frustration.
However, if it's something where you simply have different opinions on a subject, then it's a case of "respectfully agree to disagree". You don't have to compromise your beliefs - and nor should you feel pressured to. You simply accept that his beliefs are different to yours. Likewise, he must accept that you don't follow his thoughts and not try to change how you feel.
I will refrain on commenting about him asking you to not go behind his back because I don't know what the issue is exactly. And I don't know the ramifications of doing X vs not doing X
I have gone through stages of sorting out how I feel about religion and I understand your husband not discussing his thought train with you. You see, what one's beliefs are can't be negotiated on. Even if he wanted to follow your train of thought with all his heart...all the support from you would not change how he feels instinctively. And it's important to remember that this is not a case of one of you being right and the other being wrong - rather, it's a case of different opinions.
I also feel that your husband has done nothing wrong by changing his thought patterns. We all continually grow and change throughout our lives. And something that was important to us at one stage, can become less important at others. What he's doing is quite normal. It's just as normal as an agnostic finding religion if circumstances lead him in that direction.
Regarding raising children.....I don't agree that you alone should be able to decide how the children should be raised. I also believe that NEITHER of you should push your ideas onto your children. Instead, I would suggest that both of you could model your differing opinions with respect to the other's opinion. What could be better for children than parents who show that they can respect the other's opinion without anger or distress? The two of you could be role models in tolerance. You can say that "mum believes X and dad believes Y and that's OK because we respect each other's opinions"
As far as how you raise your children, you could follow what my DH and I do. We let them learn religion, but teach them that they have to follow their heart and do what is right for them. We teach them to listen to others and respect their opinions but to make their own choices in life. And lastly, we teach them to never accept criticism from those who hold different religious beliefs.
And for the record, one of my dear friends' dad was a Muslim and her mum a Christian. And they loved each other and respected each other's opinions. My friend is familiar with both faiths. If a Muslim and a Christian can do it, I'm sure the two of you can.
For that matter, my ex husband was a Christian and I'm an Athiest. And for all our marital issues, religion wasn't one of them. We simply respected each other's opinion and didn't try to convert the other :-)
Best of luck...and let us now how it goes.
I will try and think of a way of clarifying it all without having to teach you all the tenets of my religion, LOL! It's just difficult cause there are so many nuances.
I have no problem with him believing different, right now it just feels like I keep getting told that what I believe isn't right and how can it be? And he doesn't get to share his confusion with the kids. If he reaches a point where he figures out he believes whatever, instead of just NOT believing what I believe, I don't mind the kids seeing that. Where he is at right now will do nothing but cause a great deal of confusion in our kids, especially them being so young and it seemingly coming from nowhere for them.
I wish I could explain it all in a way that would work and you would understand. While I don't think my DH is evil for doubting and thinking, it's something that for me, has ramifications through this life and what I consider to be the next life as well.
I'll work on explaining it.
Jen
I've never thought of you as an anti-Christ, LOL! Though now that you mention it....
I am trying to take all this slowly and a day at a time. I've already told him that I'm not even sure I'm going to process all this before the baby comes. Let alone begin to work through the grief stages, cause there will be mourning. I've even warned him that I really hope the anger and post-pregnancy hormones don't coincide. ;)
I know that we can find a way through all this and come out with a functioning new marriage, but it's not what I want at all. And while he doesn't HAVE to believe what I believe, there is no room for me to compromise my beliefs. I have a large amount of conviction and I can't say that I believe X is right but I'll give in for you cause you want me to. It doesn't work that way for me. I will always do what I believe is right. There are some things that I may NOT be able to do, tithing for instance (also happens to be what triggered all of this), because he has forbidden it (essentially) and I won't go out and do it because of that, but it's not something where I can say, well, that's okay. It's something that will bother me and I will do it to the best of my abilities. But it's not going to be fine that I can't. Does that make sense?
Like I said, it's more than just believing different now. He now wants to change the importance of common goals and values that we had, without me getting a say. He wants to alter how the kids will be raised, even though we had an agreed upon plan. He isn't saying, let's work something out (in my mind) he is saying, this is how I am going to be now and you all just have to adjust to it. Even though some of those adjustments are going to be things that go strongly against what I believe. But I'm not going to say he can't do it, I've told him he can (but that he needs to own this if it's what he wants. he wants to make me and our church accept his new way of being and leave him doing what he is (teaching a class on Sundays) even though he doesn't follow our basic tenets now.) But he needs to accept the "consequences" of what doing this is going to bring.
I hope he is just trying to figure out things and not cemented in. And I have no problem helping him if he's honestly searching things out. Doesn't scare me to investigate and learn, I've done it before and ended up in the same place I started. So I don't fear that he will taint me. That's not it.
Like I said in my other post, I'll work on finding a way to explain it better.
Jen
Okay, I've thought of this example. Maybe it will help. If not, I really couldn't sleep last night so I will claim pg brain and tiredness again, LOL!
It's about like being Amish or Jewish (devout and kosher). Both born and raised that way. Then having (what feels like) him coming home one day and saying that it's all fine and good but he isn't going to do it anymore. And when your religious beliefs infuse your life to that degree, it's hard.
Besides that, I wonder just how long he is going to tolerate me. (He seems to think I might leave him over this though I haven't said, hinted, or even thought of that.) But if he is living a "worldly" way and I'm living a "religious" way and can't allow myself to live "worldly", just how long is HE going to comfortable with that? especially since he keeps adding things to his list of "really not important". Which is FINE for HIM, but he wants to include ME. And I can't. It feels like I would be compromising my beliefs and that's about like saying that I think stealing is wrong but since he doesn't (not a specific example) it's okay to steal me a present as long as I don't have to steal.
Ugh. I was just more confusing wan't I?
Jen
Jen,
I think I understand what you are saying.
Peace,
Di
***If you cannot define yourself, your circumstances will.***
Wow, thank you for that! I finally feel that someone out there actually gets it, cause yes, that is how I feel. You don't know what a relief that is. My dad gets it (I do tend to feel I married my mother and I'm reliving my dad's life somehow...) but he's male and doesn't relate the same way. It helps to talk to him but having someone else out there...
It has changed who he is to a degree, but not a degree that I would leave him over. He isn't as happy as he was when we met. There are things like that. I can tell his life has no focus and he does what makes him happy now, without thinking about long term affects. Which worries me some. But so far there is still a boundary. I just don't know what is mandating that boundary now, and I wonder if it will ever change. It's hard to trust when he says, well, no I don't believe in THAT when as far as I was aware 2 days ago he believed the same as I did. I know this part will take time. The trusting again that things will be stable. And he's still trying to figure it out so I don't think things will be stable for awhile. And I definitely like things stable. Or at least to be able to kind of predict what is going to come next. I don't do surprises well. I don't like surprises.
<>
This is EXACTLY how I feel. And he doesn't get it. He doesn't see where this would change for me, why I can't just keep chugging along. And I honestly don't know how to start making a life with someone who believes differently, especially to this degree. Not that it makes him bad but because it does affect the "two has become one".
And I do feel like I have to decide if the terrain shift is going to be okay or not. I worry. I think I can live with him this way, but I don't think he will be able to live with me. He will for awhile, maybe even years, but I think the disconnect between the way we think will grow. And there are areas of our life where he tells me that in order to feel loved he needs me to do something. And what if he doesn't feel loved cause I don't share his beliefs?
His dad did pretty much the same thing when DH was younger. And it devastated DH. He hated his father for it. (Granted, with his dad there was a lot of infedility too and there isn't with DH.) But just not having that common bond did a lot to destroy their relationship and any respect DH had for his dad. And his mom played the whole martyr part (I am no martyr). And he hates his mom for her martyr role. And yet, here he is, doing in my mind the same thing to our kids. And I can't fathom it.
I am willing to listen to him. I want to know what caused all this. I can listen, especially if it's "I feel this way" "I think this way" and not the "Well, explain this!" that I've been getting for the past 2 days. Can't do the antagonism right now. Maybe when it's not so fresh... Or when I'm not so hormonal.
Again, thank you for posting. I really appreciate it. I appreciate knowing that I'm not quite as nuts as I've been feeling.
Jen
Hmmm.....Maybe I'm dense on this issue and maybe I did get it all along, just didn't word it very well in my response (that's what I get for answering a post at 2 a.m. Curse me for refreshing when I'm done and ready to go to bed!) Dirextor, maybe you can help me out in knowing if I'm on the right track or not.
Yes, your foundation has been messed with, blocks have been moved and maybe blocks have been removed -- maybe blocks that you thought were there were never there at all. It speaks to the very core and center of what you've believed you had all this time, maybe it even has you questioning if your relationship/marriage was ever what you thought it was.
But, is it different from what any of those who have had major life changes (think addiction, betrayal, etc.) experience? These issues have you looking at a foundation that isn't what you thought it was, maybe never was; it harkens to a difference in morals and values when you'd believed you knew very well just where your spouse or s/o was on the subject. I'm not at all trying to minimize the shock, impact and struggle here, but is a difference or change in religious belief different than a realization that there's a secret addiction, infidelity or other major foundation block issue?
Jen, maybe I just don't get it and if I don't, I apologize and I'll just bow out of this one, but when I answered you, I think I realized the "shaken to the core" kind of impact this had. I'm sure I rambled worse at that time of the night than I usually do, but I still say that while you say you don't know how this is going to work, what the terrain shift will do, etc., the only thing that will tell is time. Slowly, down the road, one step at a time. You'll learn day by day, step by step how this goes and if it goes. It's not something you can "know" or "decide" right now, it's a process, an evolution, not a black and white thing, unless you make it one -- you have every right to say "x" is what you demand and nothing less will do (but I don't hear you saying that); that leaves you with finding out along the way.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Sexual Pleasure
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
I worried that you and Aisha would take it to mean that I didn't like your responses. That isn't what I meant. I don't think you didn't get it, but I felt that Di GOT it. Does that make sense? Your response was just fine- though I didn't get quite the feel of the importance this is to me from it that I got from Di. Which isn't meant as a criticism at all. Kind of like not really understanding the death of a parent unless you've lost one.
I know this is something I can't fix or decide on today. I don't plan on it. One, I'm way too hormonal and will be for awhile. I don't want to make any major decisions and find out later that I was just really hormonal at the time. Two, I don't know if this is something I can live with and work out and I won't know that until I try. Which I plan on doing. I can't quite see HOW it could work out. Well, I can believe that we can have a functioning marriage, but it may not be what I've wanted. I have to figure out if I can live with the difference and I really think that I can only do that by trying. That does me a lot of changing by me. I am a person who thinks with very little grey. I'm a person who has always lived with an eye on tomorrow. Suddenly needing to shift that... I'm not sure I can do that AND still be who I am. And I LIKE who I am. I don't want to change so much that when all this is done, I don't recognize myself. But I am willing to try to find some type of middle ground.
I talked with DH quite a bit last night. About me and whether or not I could handle all this. Part of the problem is that we have some big issues (or at least issues that come up ALL the time) outside of this one. And the last couple of years have been no cakewalk for me. I feel like I've been fighting through it all on my own and the main reason I stayed was the common goals and values and the thinking that we would eventually get through this. Now those common goals aren't important for him, since they were religious based. While they are still good goals, he doesn't have to DO anything to make it happen, it will just magically happen. (Okay, it's like going from a works based faith to a "I've been saved I don't need to do anymore faith".) For me, there HAS to be just as much work as faith. And so he's asking me to put aside my belief there and just trust that it will happen. I CAN'T do that and still believe what I believe. (I hope that was clear. I'm still having problems sleeping....)
So, the main driving force, the one we both shared that has kept me here for the last 2 years (besides the fact I love him, because I do love him. But love doesn't always cut it) isn't there anymore. Not by my belief system. So, I'm worried the next time those things rear their ugly head and I go back to my stand-by of "I'm doing this because one day this will be the result" will become "Just why? Cause it isn't going to happen."
I also have serious trust issues with him and have been struggling with that for awhile. He hasn't had an affair so I don't think he's out cheating. But he does what he wants, if he wants to, irregardless of what we've agreed to or he's promised me. Ie, he likes to talk to me over the phone when there is an issue (he likes to avoid confrontation and this makes me easier to control) and he gets into the habit of hanging up on me when he doesn't want to hear what I say. Not a "I need to talk to you later." type thing, just annoyed and hanging up. It's been going on for years. And it's frequent and since he WON'T talk to me in person unless he HAS to about issues, it's not a good thing. He has promised he won't hang up. Well, he gets mad enough and that's what he does.
We get through and argument and say, okay, this will happen. He agrees, I ask if he has problems with it, he says no. Then next thing I know, he's right back to doing whatever and when I call him on it he says it just wasn't going to work, he was trying to say what I wanted to hear so I'd feel better, he doesn't have to do what I tell him to, etc, etc. So I don't trust when he says "I will do this..." because it's only good so long as HE thinks it is. And instead of coming back and talking to me and working out something that HE thinks will work, he does what he wants.
This all happens repeatedly and with different issues. He gets mad enough and he intentionally will do something he has told me he wouldn't just because he was so mad he really wanted to hurt me and our marriage. And it happens so frequently.... (Not daily but we aren't talking about once every few months or years either....)*** actually it does happen very frequently and would happen on a daily basis if it "worked" better for him. There he is consistant.*** So I have serious trust issues that I've been working through. And part of why I can work through those is because I believed there were certain boundaries that he wouldn't cross, because they were deeply held religious beliefs. And now I have no clue where his boundaries are. Or what judgements he uses to make them. They appear totally arbitary and random and inconsistant to me. So how do I know what line he will or won't cross now? And he can't give me a guideline he uses right now other than he will do good things and not do bad things. But it's HIS judgement now, not God's or anyone else's. And I don't trust his judgement of good or bad since he changes it depending on his mood (cept where really big things like cheating are.) I hope he can give me the guideline he will use, but he doesn't know it right now. And then since THIS changed (and I understand for him it was a slower process than what it feels like, though he said he's been trying to figure out when or how to say something for months) how do I know that he won't up and change it again one day out of the blue for no reason I can fathom?
Okay, kids are interested in cartoons so I'm going to try to nap. Early, I know, but I sleep if and when I can. Especially now that I have Dh's cold too. This has been one crappy week.
Jen
Edited 9/22/2005 9:37 am ET ET by imasillynut
Okay, I am going to go out on a limb here.
Peace,
Di
***If you cannot define yourself, your circumstances will.***
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