We don't know how to communicate
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| Tue, 10-04-2005 - 9:26pm |
I just don't know where to start...
First some facts....
I live with my bf of three years in his home that he owned when we met with my two children, one teen, one 9 year old.
We have issues. We have communication issues. We rarely fight but when we do, oh boy. Most of our fights are just conversations gone bad and honestly I feel our fights esculate into huge fights b/c of the things he says during the fights. VERY mean hurtful things. Things I have a very hard time getting over afterwards even though he says he is sorry, didn't mean them and usually buys me flowers, cards and smoothers me in affection to make up for the horrible things he said.
Example: Well, for one he always uses my kids as a weapon, tells me how I make them miserable, they dread when I come home, they are afraid of me, etc. For me, these words hit like a fist and he knows it b/c I adore my kids and have always put them first, do without so they can have, etc. I have raised them alone for almost their whole life and they are great kids. Both honor role, polite, friendly, invlolved in sports, club, church, friends, etc. This past arguement he said "you love to make everyone miserable, me, your kids, your exhusband, his girlfriend, your family, EVERYONE in your life you love to make them miserable. ... I haven't spoke to my ex in a year and I have not spoke to his girlfriend in over two years, so where does he come up with this stuff? Part of me says he is just fighting dirty and trying to hurt you and knows just how to do it and the other part of me says why in the world would someone who cares about me want to hurt me that way and if they do why do I want to be with them?
Which is how I am feeling right now... questioning my relationship with a man who verbally abuses me, although it is infrequent, it is verbal abuse.
So my problem is, we can not communicate. We never have. He has no idea how to and neither do I. If I say, "I need to talk to you", he hears, "I need to get in a big fight with you". I know I have trouble communicating and being with someone who can not either is trouble!!!
How do I learn how to communicate at this stage in my life? I have been on my own since I was 18, (out of my parents house, not a close family so the only people I rely on is myself and a few goods friends I have been frineds with for many, many years. I basiclaly have no family, so I see them as family and they have told me I am like family. I was married to my high school sweet heart for 18 years, divorced now, but looking back, we were never REALLY close. I didn't feel he was my soulmate. That I could confide in him with all my deepest thoughts, feelings, dreams, etc. We were just roommates who had children together. We got along fine, but something deeper was missing and when I would try to talk to him, really talk about my feelings, he would close up too. Do I just pick guys who can't communicate or is it me or both? But then again, I have only been with my husbands for 18 years and this guy for 3, so I have nothing to base a relationship on. I have no idea what is normal.
I am so confused.

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I’ll be back as soon as I get through those before you!I say black, he says white...
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Living Together
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
I felt at one time that I had no idea what a healthy relationship was like.
The first thing that strikes me is that you seem to think you're the one who needs to learn to communicate, while he's the one who's slinging verbal abuse. It's not your fault, it's his. You're not the one who's "doing it wrong", it's him. I do agree that you may not be well equipped to choose a healthy, appropriate relationship right now, and I think once you get some therapy you'll be better able to recognize an appropriate relationship and will feel stronger and more sure of yourself so that you don't accept a behavior that isn't acceptable. Something else I think is important to consider is what this kind of relationship is doing to your children. They see the example set by your boyfriend (male role model) and take that example as what is appropriate. They see him disrespect you and see you allow it (you stay). The message sent is that you deserve it and/or that it's acceptable. They'll lose respect for you, likely will eventually begin treating you the same way, and it will certainly impact their lives. These are scenes they'll not forget and I know they're not the kinds of memories you want them to have.
You're asking about how to get through to your boyfriend, and I understand that he sees even appropriate and non-confrontational approaches to discussions as attacks. You can try to get through, but ultimately, it's up to him to be willing to listen and communicate back. Anything you say needs to be said at a time when there is no conflict, when things are going well and the mood is good. Hard to think about messing up a good mood, I know, but it's the only time to approach it. You could try writing him a letter instead of talking, or maybe instead of saying "I need to talk to you", try saying something like "I have a problem I need your help with", or simply, "I don't know what to do". The topic from there, I think, should be the fact that you can't discuss the important issue of what he says in anger and (if it's true) that the issue is important enough that if it's not resolved you'll leave the relationship. There are some good articles in our Information and Resources section on fair fighting that might be helpful:
Verbal Fencing With Someone You Love
Ten Rules For Fair Fighting
Dos and Don'ts For Fair Fighting
Conflicts - Points to Remember
Something that's important to point out is that it's not at all uncommon for an abusive man to seem to make genuine efforts to change his ways if he thinks his partner is close to leaving the relationship. The reality is his interest is not in changing, but in getting her to stay. Once he feels she's more solidly vested back in the relationship he'll begin to slide back into his same old ways. So even if he seems to change, it's not likely as positive as it seems.
Having said all that I have to touch on a very important issue. You've rightly described what he does as verbal abuse. And when you consider that the success rate for abusers who actually change and become non-abusive partners is between 1 and 3%, the chances of this man changing are virtually non-existent. So, what you're facing is a known abusive situation that is not at all likely to change. I have to tell you that I identified a lot with how you approach this issue, and that's reason for great concern. My ex-husband was verbally abusive. He too threw out awful things in the middle of fights that were incredibly hurtful. The words don't leave your head, apologies don't take them away; once they're said, they're in there for good, I know, I remember. I too worked very hard at trying to get him to understand how hurtful, devastating, and destructive his attacks were, and what I hear from you is what I felt, that if I could just word it right, find the right thing to say, explain it properly for him, he'd get it, understand completely and it would stop. Here's the reality: unless he has a hard time understanding most things, the problem is not in how you present it, the problem is that he doesn't want to get it, doesn't want to listen, doesn't want to face it, talk about it or change it. He's simply not interested, and in taking a defensive stance, he doesn't have to. I'm ashamed to tell you I put blinders on and focused so hard on getting it right, getting through to him, making our relationship the good, happy, healthy one I wanted that by the time I took those blinders off I'd spent 17 years in the marriage. That's 17 unhappy, wasted years of being put down, demeaned, disrespected and more. Upon realizing I'd spent 17 years working towards a goal that was no closer than it had been when I'd started, I ended the marriage. Seven years later, guess what, he was still the same guy he'd been, only it was his girlfriend who was taking that same abuse, not me. Word to the wise, Judie, it's not you, it's him. You can and should work on why you chose a verbally abusive man and why you chose to stay, but you cannot work on making him get it, That's his job and frankly, it's not going to happen because he's not interested in changing. It may seem like it as he lavishes you with apology fluff, but his attempt is to keep you there, not change. If he were intent on changing, he wouldn't continue to verbally assault you.
I would also strongly urge you to post on the Dealing With Domestic Abuse board. They are in or have been in situations just like yours. Ask them questions, they'll be happy to offer you advice, suggestions and encouragement. Read the posts that are there, both current and archived ones, there's a lot of inspiration and knowledge there. Also read the Domestic Abuse Board's Homepage , it's filled with articles and information that will be very insightful to you. It's there that I first realized my ex had been verbally abusive. Even read the articles that don't seem to pertain to your situation, you'd be surprised how many places you'll find your husband's behavior fitting into and you'll learn a lot about the dynamics of verbal abuse and abuse in general. Here are some articles from their homepage to get you started:
What is Verbal Abuse? (please take the time to read the intro, it's slow but it's sooo right on)
Signs of Potential Abuse: Need to Know
Traits of an Abusive Personality
Know What Domestic Violence Is
Power and Control
Extensive DV Checklist
General Characteristics of Verbal Abuse
The Power of Verbal Abusers Reality
Common Characteristics (Victim/Abuser)
The Mind of an Abuser
Is Your Relationship Healthy?
Read "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft . Bancroft is a therapist who specifically treats abusive men. His book is written for the women who are in relationships with abusive men, to give them an understanding of how these men think and what their thought process is. It's very enlightening, you'll understand a lot by reading the book. Another book to read is “The Verbally Abusive Relationship” by Patricia Evans Check to see if your public library has a copies of these books (much easier to borrow than to buy, at least until you know you want to own them). A great audio interview with the author of one of the books I suggested above:
Why Does He Do That? Interview w/Lundy
What I really hope that you do is decide that the verbal attacks and put downs don't exist in the kind of man you'd accept for yourself and you'll leave. It really isn't something anyone should accept or put up with; you deserve more, much more. You deserve to be treated with care and respect, even when you're fighting. There's no excuse for what he does, he makes the choice to act as he does, say the things he does.
Like Firstamendment, after leaving my ex I got myself into therapy, you can't spend time in a dysfunctional relationship without collecting a lot of "junk" that needs to be cleaned out, and too, you need to work on your self esteem and self worth, they take a real beating when you're dealing with an abusive situation. I agree with Firstamendment that books can't take the place of a therapist. There were sessions that the insight they had based on one sentence I'd said in speaking about issues I believed to be totally unrelated that cleared up an immense amount of issues I was dealing with. It's just incredible. Reading a book yourself you'd miss so much, wouldn't -- couldn't get a tenth of the good you'll get in therapy. When therapists have issues to deal with they don't read books, they see other therapists, what more proof do you need that the insight of a trained third party is extremely important?I hope you'll consider what life with this man will be like, what the impact of a continued relationship with him will have on your children, as well as how vastly different your relationship is from the emotionally healthy and supportive relationship that you deserve. This isn't you, Judie, it's him, and you can't fix it.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Living Together
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
hi cl-2nd life, and thank you for your response. I just wanted to pop in and add something to my situation. The reason I say "we" don't know how to communicate and not just him is the week before the "verbal abuse" I wouldn't talk to him. Thats what I do. I don't talk. Sometimes I don't know what to say, somethimes I don't know how to say it, sometimes I don't know where to start, so I just don't start, etc. And it is not just my current bf, I do this to my family friends and my ex husband too. And brace yourself, ha, my mother did this when I was young and still does it now, imagine that!! Her mother did it too, I remember from when I was a kid. So I KNOW this is/was a learned behavior, I just don't know how to stop and how to learn/unlearn this bad habit. I guess it is like any other bad habit, babysteps. And I had a feeling, people would suggest therapy, however, at this time I have no medical insurance. I am not techically working, I do small odd jobs here and there for extra money, but I am a full time college student, graduating in May, so the money is just not there for therepy right now. I have check with my school and they only have help for issues that are affecting your studies, I'm pretty much straight A, so I don't qualify. Anyway, I have to get ready for class right now and get my kids off to school, so I can't finish this. But Ijust read your reply and wanted to pop in and let you know why I say "we" can't communicate. Thanks for your time.
PS
Honestly, he NEVER says hurtful things in front of my children. I would never allow that. If they are here, I continue the silent treatment. My main concern about what they are learning is what I am teaching them. I learned it form my mother who learned form her mother and I don't want my kids to learn ot from me if they haven't already. Bye :-)
Hi Judied, thanks for the added info. A question and a couple of comments...
Question first: From what you just said, I get the impression that his name calling and verbal attack has occurred only once, is that correct?
I'm really surprised that your school's mental health department only offers help to students if their studies are being affected, there are a lot of students with a lot of mental health needs that don't affect their studies, at least not until after their suicide attempt, if you know what I mean. School's are usually pretty sensitive to student needs far beyond how it affects them academically, and in this age of law suits I'm truly surprised your school takes such a hard, unfeeling stand; it's not one I've heard before. You might check the college staff; if mental health professors happen to hold counseling licenses, one might be interested in working with you on the side for a small fee. It's certainly worth checking, I've known others who got some great help from qualified college professors. Another place to check is local/city/county/state mental health, they offer low income options. Since you don't have health insurance, heck with your county health department about low income insurance programs sponsored by the state. They will offer insurance coverage at a fee that's based on your income. Once you're enrolled you'll be eligible for services at a very reduced rate. Also check local therapists, they very often charge on a sliding fee and accept payments. I know how it is, I've been on the state sponsored insurance program (newly separated, anywhere from no job to one or several part-time jobs -- whatever I could get -- and an ex who worked under the table to avoid paying child support). I spent most of my single mom days working full time (finally!) with an ex who avoided paying, I know how it is to be footing the whole bill for your needs and kids. It's not easy.
I understand what you're saying about the silent treatment. After I left my ex-husband and before I went into therapy, there was a time that I had a hard time voicing some issues too. When it came to those issues (which was sharing my feelings, specifically hurt, sad, scared type feelings) I knew I needed to share them, knew my boyfriend was not my ex, "knew" that what I said was safe with him, but I could not make myself say the words. It was like standing at the edge of a cliff trying to will yourself to step off. I was right there on the edge of saying what I should say, but taking that step was just as difficult as stepping off a cliff. I knew I should, knew I needed to, but could't make myself do it. For me, it also illustrated the need for therapy. Since then I've certainly had instances when I needed to talk about something that was difficult to bring up. Taking a deep breath and just blurting it out works, sometimes writing it and handing it to your partner gets the ball rolling and sometimes it helps to just start talking. What I mean by that is to start by saying, "I don't know how to say this, so I guess I'll just start and hope you'll hear me out....." Those suggestions all seem pretty lame if you're where I was in knowing the need and not being physically able to take that step. If that's where you are, I'd keep looking for a therapist.
I get the feeling that you're backpedaling, downplaying his actions. You seem to be excusing him and now call it "abuse". ?????
I'd also like to offer you this thought....if he'd never say hurtful things in front of your kids that illustrates even more that it is abuse. If he can control his words and actions in front of them, he can control them all the time. But he doesn't. He chooses to unleash them on you, which is typical of abuse. It is, in fact one of the ways abuse is defined. His choice to verbally abuse you by calling you names and saying hurtful, derogatory things speaks to his beliefs about you, and women in general. Your issue of difficulty discussing issues is not part of his issue and it is not a reason or an excuse for his attacks; fixing your problem won't end his. And being with a verbally abusive man will only make it more difficult for you to talk about issues, it certainly can't feel safe to do so. I hope you read the information and think about the fact that his ability not to do it in front of your kids says he has the ability to control himself always. Abusers almost always look great to everyone on the outside, it's part of the package. It's very, very common for partners of abusers to hear from everyone what a great guy he is, how lucky they are to be with him, etc., etc.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Living Together
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
I got the same impression, that the OP was backing away from what she'd said about her boyfriend's abuse.
Judie, I was in a verbally abusive relationship. What you described is how it goes, exactly. There are no excuses for him, no reasons and it's not okay because he doesn't do it in front of the kids.
It's not your fault and you learning to communicate better won't fix this. His issue isn't about inability to communicate, it's about him being abusive.
Hi Cl 2nd life, Thanks for your reply. First, to answer your question, no, that was not the first time, probably about the fourth in three years. The last time was probably around May and it was not anywhere near the argument of this time. Anytime he has ever said anything derogative to me is in the heat of an argument that does not occur frequently. With that said, I am confused and curious as to what I said to make you and pandau agree that I am backpedaling and downplaying his actions. I was simply stating for the record that this type of behavior has never occurred in front of my children in response to your comment of,
"………….Something else I think is important to consider is what this kind of relationship is doing to your children. They see the example set by your boyfriend (male role model) and take that example as what is appropriate. They see him disrespect you and see you allow it (you stay). The message sent is that you deserve it and/or that it's acceptable. They'll lose respect for you, likely will eventually begin treating you the same way, and it will certainly impact their lives. These are scenes they'll not forget and I know they're not the kinds of memories you want them to have……………………"
90% of the time he is respectful, caring and considerate. He is always doing things for me and bringing me little gifts, tokens of love and flowers, all the time and not just after a fight as “apology fluff”, that is what my kids see. At the beginning of this semester, he bought me a “good luck” card with a notebook and some pens and had the kids sign the card too. Two weeks ago I was stressing and he and my son went to the store and came back with a card that said “hang in there”. This weekend I studied most of Sat. and all of Sunday, he and my daughter went to the grocery store on Sunday, brought me back a sandwich and he got everything needed for a quick/easy dinner and when the time came for it, he made it for us all b/c I was still studying, etc. This summer, the kids and I went away for five days, the morning I left, my coffee maker broke, one day while I was away he called me from Target to ask if I wanted a black or white new coffee maker. He said he knew I would be arriving home from the trip late and then wouldn’t have any coffee in the morning. By the way, bf does not drink coffee, he was just thinking about me. I could go on and on. Like I said 90% of the time he is great, affectionate, respectful, supportive, encouraging, helpful, etc. My ex, their father NEVER did anything like those things, honestly, NEVER. I was on my own. I used to tell him that, that he put me on “auto-pilot”. I never got a helping hand, or words of encouragement, he never thought outside of his box and thought ahead to dinner or how to make my life easier in anyway, very self-centered. In fact, his view on my stressing about and juggling school/work/kids/life was “you don’t HAVE to work and go to school, you chose to” so basically if you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen. Not a good message coming from the one who is supposed to be my partner for life. Not a good example for the children on how to treat your mate. So when you say
"……………………. You can and should work on why you chose a verbally abusive man and why you chose to stay………………………"
I didn’t “chose” a verbally abusive man, I choose a man who is affectionate, romantic, respectful, supportive, encouraging, helpful, generous, fun, etc., who sometimes, on rare occasions says hurtful things in the heat of the moment. Hasn't almost everyone said something while upset that they later apologized for? I agree that I deserve to be treated with care and respect, even when we're fighting. However, my intentions when originally posting was to figure out what to do about MY bad habit of not talking. When something is said or done that upsets me, I don’t say anything, I hold it in sometimes for days, weeks, years, or forever. I know this is not good. I know this is not healthy and I need to learn how to speak up when things hurt me or upset me (for the record when he says the mean things while we are fighting, I do speak up and tell him not to speak to me that way, etc). So what I am worried about and what I think is important to consider is what this kind of behavior is doing to my children. They see the example set by me and take that example as what is appropriate. The message I am sending is that this is acceptable and appropriate and likely will eventually begin treating me and others the same way, and it will certainly impact their lives, as it has mine, as I have previously stated, my mother did this and her mother did this too.
Anyway, I am not backpedaling, downplaying or making excuses for him. His harsh words during arguments are hurtful and need to stop. Your comment about if he can control his words and actions in front of them, he can control them all the time was definitely an “ah-ha” moment and when I bring this subject up with him I will definitely make that point. However, this seems to be the problem now. We fought, disagreed, said hurtful things, didn’t speak for a week and then just kissed and made up and didn’t discuss anything. I want to discuss what occurred, I feel we need to discuss what occurred, however, I can never find the right moment and/or there is never a good time. And now it’s been over a week. Oh boy, I must get to class now and can't go on, so I'll just stop here. I look forward to your comments and thank you for taking time. Bye.
Your entire first post was about his verbal attacks. You said you were "...questioning my relationship with a man who verbally abuses me..." and you said, (communicating wants/needs and problems with an abusive man is never easy or smooth, so you feeling you having a communication problem would be par for the course), clear up until the last paragraph, where you then said, " How do I learn how to communicate at this stage in my life? ", but even then you didn't explain your silence, and to be honest, even if you had, after an entire post of your boyfriend's verbal abuse, I wouldn't have thought of your silence as a problem that was affecting your relationship anyway. Clamming up in an abusive relationship is understandable. Feeling like you're to blame is typical. Reread your first post and see if you don't see how it came across. In your second post you completely came to your boyfriend's defense, explaining how great he can be, you even changed from calling what he did verbal abuse to "verbal abuse". In that post you went into your silence, but to me, it appeared that you were working to not make your boyfriend appear abusive, which isn't uncommon for abused women to do either. Does that make sense? So, if I'd understood that his outbursts have happened four times in the last three years I wouldn't have come on so strong, and I'd also have been more conducive to understanding your silence as a problem too. I will say that no matter how infrequently the outbursts happen, they're still verbal abuse and still wrong. I'm not sure whether your silence plays a part in the outbursts or not (you've been silent for a week after the last outburst), even if they do, he's still responsible for how he chooses to react, and not reacting as he does is an option that he doesn't choose on those occasions -- and that's something that needs to be stopped.
For what it's worth, abusers can be very loving and thoughtful between episodes, it's what keeps many abused women confused about their situation (it can't be abuse, he's so nice most of the time....or it can't be abuse, he really loves me, look at all the things he does for me) and it's what keeps them stuck where they are. Everything you were saying fell right into what's typical for an abuse victim.
You're right to want to discuss what occurred, it's where things will be resolved, understandings reached and issues put to rest. Talking about how the problem was handled and why will help to make a change in how you deal with things. You're right that there's never a good time and the moment is never right for that, you have to make the time happen. Since I've done a poor job of understanding what the issue is so far, I'll hold off saying more until I hear from you. Is it that you don't know when to start a discussion? How to start a discussion? Do you feel this is related to your "silent treatment" mode you go into when you're angry? I'm not trying to be too simplistic, I just want to get back on the right track and address the right issue.
Sorry for the confusion earlier, Judie, but, like I said, one episode is still abuse and once a lifetime is too frequently, he's got some things to work on there.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Living Together
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
In addition to the great advice you have already gotten, I would add:
Consider this book:
The Last Word on the Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense – Susan Elgin
::you love to make everyone miserable, me, your kids, your exhusband, his girlfriend, your family, EVERYONE in your life you love to make them miserable
Then you could use one of the techiques in the book - reflect/mirror back by repeating what he says and ask him 'I make everyone miserable, that's what you are saying?'
When someone is verbally abusive, ask them to repeat themselves, 1) it give you longer to think, 2) it never comes out the same, because now they figure you are REALLY listening to what they are saying.
Another thing you could try: 'With the horrible things you are saying about me, I think it's better if we have this conversation when you aren't verbably abusing me, maybe after you calm down some.' Then walk away.
Carrie
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