Repost-Vonique's response to Mommy2one21

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Registered: 03-26-2003
Repost-Vonique's response to Mommy2one21
8
Wed, 10-19-2005 - 11:53pm

(This is being reposted from Mommy2one21's post to keep from hijacking Mommy's thread.)


The thing I'm afraid of for you is the thing that I think is actually causing you to have hope, and that is the couples counseling.



Be very careful!!! I haven't posted in here in a long time but I too am trapped in an abusive relationship (not physically but still damaging psychologically) and one of the worst things I ever did was to agree to couples counseling, or to just him going to his counselor who then later saw us together. Oh My God! My husband sat and lied with the straightest face possible, with all these false emotions with just the right pitiful look on his face and tone of voice professing love for me(that his behavior demonstrates he has never had), telling one lie after the next, first about himself and how great he is, and then about me. It turns out I was the one with the problem????????? The therapist believed every word he said and proceeded to turn it into a "blame Vonique and make her explain every little thing she's ever done in the entire marriage". I felt like I was on trial with two "men" wearing me down. The therapist actually scolded me that I better watch my temper (something I truly have never had a problem with----unlike my husband).



So, I just had to jump in and completely agree with all the ladies who have responded and I wish there was something more someone could say or do to help, but it's going to have to come from within yourself to leave, and I am in the same situation. I too have no good job skills and am using that same excuse. Trouble is, when it comes down to it, who's going to pay the rent? And my fear keeps me here.



Enough about me. I'm physically safe, at least. But you.....I worry about the little one. Please be careful. And do some research about how successful counseling is regarding abusers. The gals on this forum could probably help you more with that, but my own personal therapist that I have now told me that less than 2 or 3 percent of men ever really change.



Stay well,and God Bless you and your child,

Vonique


Edited 10/20/2005 3:24 am ET by cl-2nd_life








"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 10-19-2005 - 11:57pm

My response to Vonique:

It's nice to see you again, Vonique. What did you end up doing, moving or staying?


You are absolutely correct in saying that couples counseling is not the right thing to do in these kinds of situations, for the reasons you experienced in your situation and more. There's actually an article posted in our Information and Resources section that I "borrowed" from the Domestic Abuse board that covers that very subject. Since it explains it all so much better than I, I'm happy to just provide the link:
Counseling and Domestic Abuse


Vonique, I didn't fully realize when you posted before that your husband is verbally/emotionally abusive. I have to say if I'd had that realization I wouldn't have made the suggestions that I did. It also sounds like your husband and my ex have more in common that the connections I made back when you posted before; my ex was also verbally and emotionally abusive. Verbal and emotional abuse has been found to be more damaging and the effects longer lasting than that of physical abuse, do not for one minute downplay abuse other than physical as not being "so bad". It makes you "crazy" confused and doubt yourself. You begin to wonder if maybe it is your fault, maybe you shouldn't have done whatever it was that set him off... the reality is that there's no way to guess what will and won't set him off, it changes like the wind. Meanwhile, you end up walking on eggshells with a knot in your belly hoping against hope that he won't be upset/angry tonight. You silently wish the kids to be quiet and happy, you feverently hope for a smooth evening or day. It's hell.


Vonique, I don't understand how it is you say Mommy2one21 has options and should leave but then say you're "stuck" just like she is. Funny that you see leaving is right for her but not for you. You're no more stuck and the truth for both of you is that while it may be a struggle for a while, you will survive and in fact, you'll flourish. Getting out from under abuse makes anything and everything you have to endure as a result a pleasure and a welcome change. How do I know? When I left my husband I had been a stay-at-home mom for eight years. I had no job, had no job prospect. I had a seven year old and a three year old and no job in sight. Who would hire me when I hadn't been in the workforce for so long? I had no college degree, no expectations that a job would be forthcoming, in fact, I expected the opposite, that there would be no business that would be interested in hiring me. I just could not live like that another day. It wasn't easy, I did find work, albeit part time employment, but you know what? You take what you can get to put food on the table. There were times I worked multiple part-time jobs and yes, I struggled. I was on food stamps for a while and on the state's health insurance program, it wasn't easy. But you know what else? I always had a smile on my face, the sky was always blue, life was wonderful, free and easy. After less than a week of being devastated that daddy no longer lived with us, the kids were happier, more relaxed and easy than I'd ever seen them, and I hadn't even realized they were affected by it. Times were tough from the money point of view for about a year, then I landed a good paying job with benefits and was on my way.

My points are these:
  • Tough times are a matter of opinion. At no time did I regret my decision and at no time -- even for a second -- did I consider going back. No matter how tough things got, it was so much easier than dealing with my ex, living in that kind of hell, it might have looked tough to some on the outside, but to those who have lived the kind of lives that comes with abuse, it was EASY -- a pleasure.
  • No matter how "stuck" you think you are, the only way to unstick yourself is to get moving -- the sooner you start the sooner you'll be there.
  • Options. Family, shelters, retraining centers, undereducated women trying to make ends meet is hardly news. There are programs and groups set up to help you. All of us do it one step at a time. From those getting out of abusive situations, to those who find themselves divorced and unequipped to make it on their own, to those who didn't work towards higher education and haven't acquired skills necessary to move beyond manual-type labor.

    It's doable, it's very doable, much more so than it's been in the past. You've just got to take that step. The rewards are incredible. Freedom, peace, happiness, calm...I could go on and on.

    Vonique, please get yourself over to the Dealing With Domestic Abuse board. You'll find a board full of women who are or have been in situations just like yours. You'll find understanding, support and so much help there. Please do this for yourself and for your children. You all deserve a life filled with peace and happiness.







  • ~ cl-2nd_life

    "You can't control the length of your life,
    but you can control the width and depth."

    ~ Author unknown

    my signature exchange partner:

    Living Together








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 03-26-2003
    Thu, 10-20-2005 - 12:00am
    Vonique's response to me:

    Thanks, CL-2nd life, for your help and support. Gee, I have posted so many different places in under so many names that I had forgotten I posted here before. Thanks for taking the effort to read them.



    I totally agree with everything you said, but unfortunately, fear rules me, and about oh so many things which I won't list here because I'm sure my fears are the same ones that all abused women have, the children, custody, financial, etc. I'm working with a counselor now and have gone back to school but unfortunately still can't find a job. I could find one working nights and weekends, but that would only give my hopefully stbx more ammunition to go for custody which he threatens, and he's just sly enough to get away with it. I can just hear him now saying he should get custody because I'd never be there for the kids.



    Plus, I keep going round and round listening to people who say, "Well he pays the bills and is pretty good to the kids, can't you stick it out til they are a little older?" And then I go, well they do love their dad and what if they blamed me, and what if we had to give up our house and all the pets, they'd never forgive me, and on and on and on......... So then pretty soon I have myself all convinced again that I should just stay put, especially since he doesn't hit us.



    But..............all the mind games and all the game playing and nastiness in front of the kids (to me, not them), the obvious anxiety that they are in, my obvious subservient role to him, the fact that he is so obviously in charge of everything and diminishes me at every turn. This is all so terrible and I know I've got to get the kids away from it because I'm afraid they will get into bad relationships, but I feel like everything is against me. And I do have a college degree but there are no jobs around here. By the time I get through thinking all these things I'm back to maybe I should just stay put.



    Oh God, what to do?? So confused! But I really don't want to turn this into my post because it is Mommy2one21's post and I wanted to support her. I know what it's like to look forward to counseling and hope that it will fix things and then to come crashing down. It doesn't work.



    So, hey 2nd-life, thanks so much! I love this board and keep reading it, but kind of got away from posting. I keep thinking my problems are so insurmountable, but from your note and the link to that article, I feel motivated again. There is a support group starting downtown for abused women and I'm thinking of joining that again.



    Good luck Mommy2one21, I hope things do get better for you!



    Von








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 03-26-2003
    Thu, 10-20-2005 - 12:47am

    And finally, my new response to Vonique:


    Vonique, you expressed concern about hijacking Mommy2one21's post; I understand and agree. But, your post is very important too so I reposted it here, that way if you choose to respond (you're not required) you can do so without worrying about taking over someone else's thread. Your post is very important, and in your response there was some great news that needs to be shared; to applaud and encourage your decision to take positive steps forward and to encourage others to do the same.


    I'm glad to hear you're working with a counselor. I hope the counselor is trained in domestic abuse? If not I hope you'll contact a local shelter in your area for a referral to an abuse counselor, the counseling will be free. Seeing a counselor who is licensed in abuse is important because they'll understand the dynamics of abuse whereas "regular" therapists will not, will steer you wrong and actually make your situation worse. An abuse counselor will also know resources in your area to suggest you to. At any rate, I'm glad you're getting stronger, verbal and emotional abuse does a real number on your confidence and on the strength in your belief in yourself.


    As far as your concerns about getting a job and what your husband will do with that, have you considered getting an initial consultation with a divorce attorney who has a reputation for being well versed in domestic abuse? The first consultation will be free and you're not obligated to go further with a divorce but what you can gain is the information on what you can and should be doing that will assure your husband hasn't a leg to stand on when you do get a divorce. Knowing ahead of time what you should be doing and having the opportunity to be doing it right from the start will put you miles ahead of the game, and quash games he plans to try. :)


    There will always be people who will think you should stay, but you know, there's one thing you need to remember about them: They aren't living you life -- they have no idea what it's like to live with your husband. You have to remember that they're speaking in ignorance, looking in from the outside. We both know there's a big attempt to make the picture look pretty nice to those on the outside. If they think he's such a great guy, then they should live with him! Just remember, they don't know the real situation and aren't speaking from a valid point of view.


    As far as your kids go, you're overlooking a very, very important aspect. You're right, he's not hitting them. He's damaging their emotional state, and they'll suffer as a result for years, very likely the rest of their lives as well as how they live their lives will be affected by it. That's a lot bigger than a bruise. They're growing up in an abusive home. They're learning how to be a father, a man, a husband, a mother, a woman, a wife by what they see transpire between you two. The relationship you have with your husband is their view of how adult life should be led. They're learning the lines the two of you use, the way you communicate with each other, the way you deal with each other, they're rehearsing your roles just as if they were learning roles for a play. The play they're rehearsing for is their lives and the roles they have to model after, to learn from is what you present. That should scare you plenty. I doubt very much you want your boys growing up to pattern their behavior after their father, and I doubt very much you want your girls to strive to live life just like you, but that's exactly what they're learning -- and it's the only way of life they're learning. Yes, they love their father. My kids did -- and do -- too. They'll likely be upset, very upset when a separation happens, whether you and they have to leave, pets have to be given up, or none of that comes to pass; no matter what it'll be a big adjustment and a big change and they most likely won't like it. But, they're kids, not adults. It's the adults job to know what's best for the child and to look out for that child. Kids often don't know what's best for them, often are upset and disagree with decisions parents make for them. But that's the parent's job. If you only did what your kids wanted, they wouldn't grow up too well now, would they? Kids learn what they live. If you want them to have the life you have, stay exactly where you are, but if you want them to have a different life, a better life, a happier life, you'll have to show them that. It may seem selfish to end your marriage. I know when I asked my husband to leave it nearly tore me in two listening to my son cry himself to sleep calling loudly for daddy. Honestly, at that point (day one), I questioned my decision to end it because of my son's reaction. But, as I said before, within a week, my kids were so much happier, so much more relaxed and easy. It was absolutely amazing. I'd had no idea the kids were being affected, honestly thought they were oblivious to the problems and were happy, healthy kids. I was sooo wrong. Leaving is not something to see as bad for your kids, Vonique, it's very, very good for them, the most positive thing you can do. It's how you'll show them that his behavior and living in that environment isn't right. You'll also be showing them that you matter, and in doing that you send the message that their lives matter too. You wouldn't want them staying in that kind of situation because they learned from you that leaving was wrong, right? You'd want them to think their lives and happiness were important enough to take action for, right? Then you'll have to show them by your actions that your life does indeed matter that much.


    What do you do? Call a domestic abuse hotline: 800-799-SAFE (7233), local shelter or YWCA to find out what's available, what your options are, what you could be doing. You can't know what to do next if you don't know what your options are. It's great that you have a college degree, that will absolutely work in your favor. There may not be any jobs in that field available now, but there will be and a job anywhere will compute to experience in the workforce that will further your hire-ability to other, more prestigious jobs. It worked for me! The abuse program that's starting in your area sounds like a wonderful place to start. I hope you'll repost and tell us you've joined the group. You deserve to be peaceful and happy and you can be, you just need to start, one step at a time.







    ~ cl-2nd_life

    "You can't control the length of your life,
    but you can control the width and depth."

    ~ Author unknown

    my signature exchange partner:

    Living Together








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 03-26-2003
    Fri, 10-21-2005 - 2:17am

    Vonique, I don't believe I mentioned this before....


    There's a link to a great audio interview with Lundy Bancroft (therapist specializing in abuse and author of the book, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" (very, very insightful, please read it if you haven't already) in the Information and Resources section. Please give it a listen!


    Audio interview on abuse







    ~ cl-2nd_life

    "You can't control the length of your life,
    but you can control the width and depth."

    ~ Author unknown

    my signature exchange partner:

    Living Together








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 04-19-2008
    Fri, 10-21-2005 - 5:57pm

    Thanks cl 2nd life, you have really inspired me to seek my freedom in a more active way. I completely agree with all that you have said, and I admit I haven't done much in the last couple of years to get out. After I took those classes and still couldn't get a job I got really discouraged and kind of gave up. Well I'M BACK! And I'm going to put in more of an effort to update my job skills, even if it isn't in my original field. I'm going to try to get some real support, the kind I have never had. I'm hoping to meet some friends in the support group and also try to do more networking professionally. Even if I have to start back at the bottom, I will.

    One thing that you said that struck me was about therapists being licensed in abuse. I brought that up to my counselor and she said that there wasn't such a thing, at least around here. I was wondering, do you know of any certificates being given in this area of expertise? I just want to be able to tell her about it. I know that in my area, the counselor's are almost oblivious to the concept of specific counseling geared toward abuse. So many that I went to tried to give us "communication" techniques (not the one I have now, though). Another reason I gave up.

    I have promised myself that if I ever get out of this mess I am going to do everything in my power to make things better for women in psychologically abusive relationships, especially in the courts, since I have been told that mental abuse is mostly not recognized, at least not without a lot of proof, and who can ever get that? My eventual goal is to try to get some laws enacted, to petition congress if I have to, to actually make it a crime to psychologically abuse a spouse, and for there to be real consequences toward that end. Maybe that will be a long time coming, but just the thought of things like that keep me going.

    I have heard of that book, I'm going to see if it's at the library and check it out, and also check the link to the audio message!

    Well, thanks again for your motivating notes! It makes me feel so validated to read that maybe I am not crazy

    Well, thanks again. I will keep you posted.

    iVillage Member
    Registered: 03-26-2003
    Mon, 10-24-2005 - 12:28am

    Vonique, if I inspired you, I'm thrilled. Being on "the other side" of abusive situations is better than I could describe, a life you definitely deserve. I'm sorry your classes didn't pay off in the short run, but I'll bet they will eventually. As I moved from one job to the next in my life, my concern was that my resume didn't reflect me "specializing" in any area, sometimes, career wise, I was all over the map. But when I started pulling it all together for my resume (which was always tweaked just a bit to highlight my experience in whatever area the particular job required) what I found was that all those different jobs I'd had gave me a very rounded experience, and a wider knowledge and experience base in a multitude of areas. Three years ago, when I was last looking for a new job, I was frequently called for interviews and told that out of the 100+ resumes they'd received, I was one of 5 or 10 being called for interviews, so I guess my scattered employment history didn't hurt me too much!


    Your therapist's comment about licensing concerns me. I don't know where "around here" is, but licensing is pretty much a universal standard. Please tell me that your counselor didn't just make those statements and leave it at that? If so, I'd be more than a little concerned, not only at her likely lack of necessary training to competently and adequately work with a client on a domestic violence issue, but because of the (appeared) lack of honestly and explanation in talking with you on the issue. She certainly knows there are a million different specialties that therapists can gain certification in, and she certainly has access to where to go to get them; if she's as much in the dark as she seems per her conversation with you, I think you should be very concerned. I will say that technically she's right, it's not called "licensing", it's called "credentialing" and/or "certification" and what the therapist/counselor who goes through the process receives is a certificate, not a license. I use the term license because to me, it seems clearer than if I said they need a certificate. Basically, you know you should be looking for a "license-type document" on their wall. Along with that document, there should be extra letters after their name, which would indicate the certification they've received. And yes, there most certainly is credentialing for domestic violence counselors. For example, one of the recognized domestic violence certification will be reflected by the initials "NCADV" after the therapist's name and there are others as well. Here's a webpage that I've used to check what those initials after a therapist's name stand for and mean, I find it very helpful, and I think it's important to be able to verify what those initials mean.
    Dictionary of Initials, Acronyms, and Abbreviations Used by Counselors and Social Workers©

    A few of the of the rights of a counseling client listed by the NBCC (The National Board for Certified Counselors, Inc. and Affiliates), is:


    Your Rights As a Consumer



    * Be informed of the qualifications of your counselor: education, experience, professional counseling certification(s), and license(s).

    * Receive an explanation of services offered, your time commitments, fee scales, and billing policies prior to receipt of services.

    * Be informed of the limitations of the counselor's practice to special areas of expertise (e.g. career development, ethnic groups, etc.) or age group (e.g. adolescents, older adults, etc.).

    * Have all that you say treated confidentially and be informed of any state laws placing limitations on confidentiality in the counseling relationship.

    * Ask questions about the counseling techniques and strategies and be informed of your progress.

    * Participate in setting goals and evaluating progress toward meeting them.

    * Be informed of how to contact the counselor in an emergency situation.

    * Request referral for a second opinion at any time.

    * Request copies of records and reports to be used by other counseling professionals.

    * Receive a copy of the code of ethics to which your counselor adheres.

    * Contact the appropriate professional organization if you have doubts or complaints relative to the counselor's conduct.

    * Terminate the relationship at any time.

    The NBCC is an independent not-for-profit credentialing body for counselors, was incorporated in 1982 to establish and monitor a national certification system, to identify those counselors who have voluntarily sought and obtained certification, and to maintain a register of those counselors.

    The NBCC's website might also be helpful to you (or anyone else wanting to know more about credentialing of therapists): NBCC

    Like you've experienced, the difference between a therapist who's trained in domestic abuse and one who's trained in "regular" therapy is vastly different. It's imperative to see a therapist who's trained in the area of your specific problem or the counseling will do more harm, not help at all. I think I posted it before, but a post that explains the difference very well is Counseling and Domestic Abuse . If you have trouble finding a qualified therapist in your area, call local women's shelters. They will have a list of qualified therapists to refer you to.

    Vonique, your desire to make some real changes to help women everywhere who are dealing with domestic violence is a wonderful thing. I've do work for one of the local domestic violence shelters every chance I get, it feels good to help others escape that hell. First though, let's get you out! ;-) Be sure to visit (lurk, post or both) on the Dealing With Domestic Abuse board for more support, inspiration and to hang onto that feeling that you're not crazy. You most definitely are not, but living in a crazy situation makes you think you are.

    Stay strong, Vonique!







    ~ cl-2nd_life

    "You can't control the length of your life,
    but you can control the width and depth."

    ~ Author unknown

    my signature exchange partner:

    Living Together








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 04-19-2008
    Tue, 10-25-2005 - 9:53am

    Hi 2nd life. Well, I think I didn't quite word it right about what the therapist said regarding licensing in domestic abuse. What I believe that conversation was about was requiring therapists to be licensed or at least be trained in domestic abuse, and that was when she said that there is no such requirement. I was expressing the belief that when a counselor takes on a case of domestic violence counseling, or when there has been an accusation made by one spouse against another of battering and they go to a therapist, that if that therapist has not been specially trained in that area, that they should be required to tell that couple that they are not the appropriate counselor and to direct them to someone who has completed some kind of certification. And that is when she said that there was no such requirement of any counselor to do that. I remember being very upset that day to find that the average therapist has such little knowledge regarding what truly goes on in domestic violence---that it's not just a condition whereby there is a communication problem and maybe one party has a little short temper problem that can be cured.

    I had that conversation with her after an hour with my husband's psychiatrist (whom he only visited after I threatened divorce again) and regurgitated verbally to him (privately) all this stuff that my spouse had done, only to find not one flicker of recognition in his eyes that this might be domestic abuse, and in fact, the fellow never once reacted to anything I said. Very discouraging and I knew that I was not in the right place. And that had been my third attempt at trying to get my husband and a professional to realize what had been going on. My third and last attempt, thank goodness, to try to fix anything about this marriage.

    Now I have my own therapist that I go to, who seems pretty well versed in all of this stuff. So that's why I wanted to clear up that she is a good dv counselor who completely supports me that I should not be with him, but she is also standing by me while I try to find a way out, and it has been taking way longer than I would like.

    I know that there are so many subjects in which a counelor has to be well trained, but considering the epidemic that there is regarding abuse of women, I should think that it would be reasonable to require therapists to be able to immediately spot when there is not only physical abuse but mental and psychological abuse. It seems that everyone is aware of physical battering being a severe problem in this country, but no one seems to care about the emotional and psychological devastation when there are no obvious bruises. Certainly not the courts. And therein lies my greatest fear: fighting for custody of my children with someone who is such a practiced and natural liar and who has in the past gotten those in authority to believe his lies against me, and who would wreak even worse devastation on the kids should he be successful in his endeavor to take the kids away from me.

    I can be reassured about everything but that.

    I'm not done! I won't give up!
    Vonique

    iVillage Member
    Registered: 03-26-2003
    Tue, 10-25-2005 - 10:13pm

    Oh good, I'm glad I misunderstood. Here I thought your therapist stared right into your face and said, "there is no such thing as licensing for specific issues". Phew! I'm glad I was wrong!


    I agree with you that they should be required to tell you up front what training they've had and what specialties would be better suited to your issue, but I guess like most other businesses, it's strictly "buyer beware". Funny too that all the psychologists I've known of have been very poor therapists. Perhaps wrongly, but I've put them in the category of "good for prescribing mental health meds only". Even therapist friends have referred to specific psychologists as having "no" or "very poor" bedside manners. Not a good thing for that profession, I'd say. I guess those who want to deal directly with people and have a very hands on approach to their health want to become therapists or counselors rather than psychologists, huh? Well, anyway, hopefully the information I put into that last response will be helpful to some.


    As far as your fear of what your husband can and cannot do during a divorce, I'd really urge you to find an attorney who's knowledgeable in domestic violence and divorce. She or he will be well versed in the tricks, see through the attempts and know exactly what you should do to put yourself in the best position possible and how to navigate most surely and securely through the system. Your local shelters should be able to suggest someone appropriate. You might want to check in with the Dealing With Domestic Abuse board, at least one of their members is mid-divorce and has been posting about it for at least several weeks.







    ~ cl-2nd_life

    "You can't control the length of your life,
    but you can control the width and depth."

    ~ Author unknown

    my signature exchange partner:

    Living Together








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"