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| Fri, 10-28-2005 - 10:50am |
Okay, been with H for about 13 years, married 9 this past August. I have two dd's, 16 and 17, from my prior marriage. Basically, he's been a dad to my dd's. We started out great but somewhere around our 5th year of marriage, things began to go awry.
I will list out some points of trouble:
1) He is an alcoholic, not admitted to except when he's in the doghouse - he doesn't get drunk daily or anything, just once he starts, like at a party, he can't stop. He looks like he has cerbral palsy by the time I can get him to leave. It's maddening to me that we can never go to an affair without me knowing prior that I will likely have to deal with his obnoxious drunken behavior. The thing is, he's a very happy friendly drunk so everyone loves him that way at a party. And it's not like we go to parties all the time, say maybe 3-4 times a year. In between, if we go out to dinner with friends, almost the same thing. I can never be free to relax and just have a fun time (God forbid I am NOT the designated driver) because I have to always be the responsible one, etc. At my dd's recent Sweet 16 party H made an incredible fool of himself. There was major flooding and I allowed him to drive a car home (down the street) and he got lost going home, kids were upset, my exh was there and he saw how wasted H was, it was basically awful. My 16dd was very upset and angry with H and told him so - he told me he would apologize but hasn't. I think he was raised that parents can't apologize to thier kids, no matter if they were completely wrong. Sickening.
2) We've been in and out of counseling for a couple of years now. It was originally precipitated by his use of porn, of which I strongly oppose and of which I found in his truck on the morning of our 7th wedding anniversary. I cannot and will not compromise on the issue of porn and H ralizes this and has said that he will no longer use it. I have no idea if that is true or not, I only know of one other time. It woulnd't even be so dreadfully horrible to me if at least H was remotely interested in me sexually, but he isn't. I know that he has MB issues - meaning I know he does that so maybe he has nothing left for me. In any event, we've done the counseling thing and things improve briefly but never last. And I have chosen to detach from the porn thing because I just don't have room in my life to worry about it anymore. We simply don't discuss it. His porn use of choice is mags. He's too cheap to waste money on anything more expensive.
3) He works constantly. I could see if we were rolling in the dough because of this, but we're not. All of our money is completely separated. That's right, we're married 9 years and not one dime of our money is combined. He makes and has his, and I make and have mine. We split the bills for the most part. He pays the mortgage, garbage disposal, insurance and cable. I pay oil, electric, phone, internet, dd's cell, food, plus my auto gas, clothing for my girls, myself, etc. Not to mention stuff like yearbook photos, senior dues, field trip or event money, etc. H contributes if I ask him to and I do get child support. Money is tight, but we're doing okay. My issue is that he's gone all the time, eats and sleeps when he's home - has no energy for anything or anyone. We both work full time and yet, he expects that I come home and make a meal every night. Well, I'm tired and at times I just would rather not eat. I realize that since he's actually outdoors doing labor, he needs a meal at the end of the day - I'm just tired of always being responsible for it and if I say that he gets pissed like I'm bitching about it always, which I'm not. Anyway, I'd like for him to acknowledge and appreciate the fact that I work full time and am a contributing member of this household. It's like he thinks my job is fluff and it's not. He claims that I don't appreciate him either, btw., and I imagine it's because I don't run to him in the evenings with slippers and a three course meal.
4) "Our" house is not in our name. 10 years ago when 'we' bought the house, his father helped us get into it with the understanding that after about 6 months, fil would then turn the deed over to us and we'd put the mortgage into our names. So, we bought it for 120,000 and now it's worth 200,000 and we can't touch the equity to do some long overdue and necessary improvements because the house is not in our name. A few years ago, I applied for a mortgage just to see and I was pre approved for a $140,000 mortgage; our house only has $67,000 left on the mortgage, so that was a cake deal. H wouldn't do it - he wouldn't approach his father with the idea and I was left standing feeling like a jerk. You see, my H can't get a mortgage because he has some major debt that would jump on him if he own any property. But I can own property, which was my intent. I figured maybe once the house was in MY name, we could use the equity to pay off his debt and make those home improvements, which I discussed with the bank and they said it would be a great way to do it - and then after the debt was paid, we could just add H to the mortgage and the deed of the house. But H wouldn't do it. He FINALLY, after weeks of arguing about it, admitted that he didn't trust me. The bottom line is that he doesn't trust me to have the house in my name only. But it's okay for me to have trusted him (and his father) to live with him in a house that isn't in my name - let's be honest, if anything ever happened between us, we know who'd get to stay in the house. My daughters and I would have to move out. H says that's not true - that he would leave. BS.
5) I have a job. I work this job to pay our bills and raise my dd's. Early after my divorce, for 10 years actually, my exh didn't send me support so it was all on me. H helped me quite a bit, but stopped giving me money about 5 years ago - no explanations, just stopped. It worked out okay, I readjusted some things and went after exh for support and got him to finally ante up. Anyway, through my job I provide health coverage for everyone. I go to work and I have this job. It does not feed my soul, but it is a good job considering it's close to home, I have a lot of perks, etc. But I've had to compromise, I've had to forego other oppotuntunities to keep this job, it can be sould deadening at times. My H has never had to compromise - he's always gotten to do exactly what he wants to do, be a carpenter. He likes working outdoors, he likes working with his hands and creating and building things. He refuses to work for anyone, it never works out, he always feels better when he works for himself rather than someone else. A few times when money was real tight, I suggested he go work for a large company and be eligible for a 401K or something like that - he refuses. He has nothing set up for his retirement years, nothing. He is 44 and eventually he is not going to be able to climb up roofs and build houses. His body will eventually give out. Here I am waiting for my girls to be grown so I can finally be free to possibly go back to school and get a degree in something I want or choose a vocation that feeds my soul, etc., but I don't see that happening. Never, EVER, does it feel like I will be able to just do what I want rather than what I HAVE to. And H doesn't understand when I talk about it at all. He's like, "I don't get it, you have a great job with bennies, it's close to home, why would want to leave that?"
6) No affection. Not even a hug or hand holding. He won't hold my hand, never really has. He gives me these pinched kisses that you'd save for uncle Letch. He tells me I"m pretty, tries to grab me once in a while (not that that's cute anymore). But he won't touch me behind closed doors, never says anything romantic or nice. If I try to make advances he tells me he's too tired or it's too late (10-11PM). I am not fat, okay may be 10 lbs overweight, I am not ugly. He's the first person to tell me and everyone else how pretty I am, how HOT I am, but yet he acts like he's not interested in me at all. I get no attention or affection from this man. He is cold like ice, indifferent. It's like he enjoys having a lovely woman on his arm, but that's it. And now when we do have sex, it's very mechanical. There is no pizazz, not snap, no desire to please, nothing. It's a bore and it's become a chore.
Can this marriage be saved??

Heartsandroses,
it sounds like you have your work cut out for you! I'm sorry you're dealing with this.
I don't have much time to type but we're here and will respond as soon as we all can!
Can the marriage be saved?
Well, that depends on how many good qualities it has. You've told us the bad stuff - now tell us the good things. Tell us why you're still there.
1-3 on your list are all ways HE avoids the relationship....he does all these things to escape life, you, the responsibilities, whatever - until he addresses the need for an escape, there will be no change in your situation.
How long are you willing to wait for things to change? My suggestion, go back to counseling ALONE and figure out what you really want so you can make the best decision for you and your daughters.
Carrie
1) Alcoholism. As long as there's active addiction involved, there's a third party in the relationship - you, him and alcohol. It's not just you and him, and you can't deal with things as partners, you've got that third party involved. What you've described is a functioning alcoholic. Doesn't make it any easier to live with, my ex-husband was a functioning alcoholic too. Always having to be the responsible one, knowing how he's going to end up at every function isn't fun. Fair doesn't come into play, it's not about taking turns, it's about dealing with an addict. As long as he chooses to let alcohol run him, he'll be an active alcoholic. I'm sure he's well aware how you feel about the alcohol, he can deny he has a problem all he wants, but he knows it's a problem. Until he's ready to deal with it, until he wants to stop what it does to his life, he'll continue to be an active alcoholic. There is no guarantee that he'll ever want to stop. At this point is certainly sounds like it's not something on the horizon. If you're staying thinking he'll someday stop, please realize that all you know is today he's not stopping and you have no reason to believe that he ever will. Your children are also being affected by his alcoholism.
2) Porn. Since you said his porn of choice is magazines, you indicate that this isn't the only time you've made this discovery. You said, "I cannot and will not compromise on the issue of porn". If your husband has been aware of your feelings about porn, you already have compromised on the issue. You've chosen to look the other way. People masturbate whether they use porn or not, it's a pretty normal thing to do. If your husband prefers masturbation to having a sexual relationship with you, that could be an indicator to a sex addiction, or it could be an indicator that the condition of your relationship has fallen to the point that he'd rather masturbate than have sex, which, I don't think is very likely. I can tell you that low libido and erection problems are inherent with alcoholism. If he's drinking more often than you indicate, or more often than you know, that could easily be the reason behind the lack of sex. Maybe he's a porn addict (though thus far you've given no information to indicate that he is), and maybe he just likes to look at porn on occasion. Whichever the case, if porn is something you cannot and will not compromise on, then staying with this man is going against your beliefs and your principles. That doesn't make living with yourself very easy.
3) Work and money. I get the sense that you really have no idea what his net income is, do you? Splitting the bills might be fair and equitable, or it might be grossly lopsided, depending on whether your take home is equal to his. It sounds like you could just as well be roommates, splitting the utilities, if he's making more it's his to do with whatever he pleases. So much for partnership and mutual anything, huh? As far as meal prep, etc., you're both working, you're (should be) partners in this. This isn't the 1800's, there is absolutely no reason that he shouldn't be responsible for 50% of the meal preparation. He wants a hot, cooked meal every night? No problem, he fixes half of them, you fix the other half. You're a working member of the partnership, just like him. Why should he think he's entitled to someone fixing meals for him, who fixes them for you? You come home tired and hungry too. What I hear though, is not verbal communication, no compromise, just anger, unspoken thoughts and resentment. If you want it different, you'll have to discuss it with him. Maybe you already have, if so, what did he say?
4) The house (trust). I may be missing something here, but if I understand you correctly, the title can't be switched to both your names because he can't get a loan, is that right? If that's the case, surely you knew that at the time the deal was originally struck, yes? What was the plan then? Clearly, he doesn't trust you, and doesn't seem to think that putting you in the same vulnerable position he wouldn't dream of putting himself in is any big deal. That speaks to lack of respect, in my opinion. It's good enough for you, but no way would he put himself in that position. You indicate this bothers you. It should, big time.
5) Future. He's not saving money, doesn't have a 401K and isn't interested in setting up any kind of retirement account, and I assume he's not saving for the future now. You sound resentful that he's doing what he wants while you're doing what you know is right, and planning for what you want for your future at the same time. In my opinion, his irresponsibility is nothing to be envious of, however, in your situation, you'll bear the brunt of it down the road, and it will greatly affect what you want. You're absolutely right when you say "He is 44 and eventually he is not going to be able to climb up roofs and build houses. His body will eventually give out." And what will happen then? If you're with him, you'll end up supporting him for the rest of his life. "Here I am waiting for my girls to be grown so I can finally be free to possibly go back to school and get a degree in something I want or choose a vocation that feeds my soul, etc., but I don't see that happening. " You're right. Once your girls are gone you'll be focusing on putting everything you have away for you and the husband who won't put away for his own future. You'll spend everything you've saved supporting the two of you through retirement, and you'll be the one working for as many years as you're able to keep both of you afloat -- due to his refusing to do it for himself. His irresponsibility will be your responsibilities. When I was in my late 30's I dated a guy who was 50. He hadn't put anything away for his retirement either. He used to say, "Who's going to take care of me when I'm old?" and I'd think to myself, "Not me!"
6) Lack of affection. I have to think, based on what you've said, that there's little positive feelings and emotions going either way. I'm not surprised there's a lack of affection, and, if I were in your situation and my husband were attempting to continue affection as though things were fine and wonderful, I'd be angry, offended and would shut him down the minute he got close to me.
I know I've made some assumptions regarding your situation, and I hope you'll let me know if I was right or wrong to assume them. If things are different than I imagine, my opinion could change quite a bit as a result. You end your post with, "Can this marriage be saved??" (from the article by the same name in the Redbook magazines of my mother's that I used to read as a kid?) and I have to answer with "why would you want to?" You've indicated a lot of resentment and a complete lack of respect for your husband, and, based on what you've said, I don't see what there is to respect. Without respect, there isn't love, and no reason to be in the relationship. Building resentment and more animosity is hardly a happy or healthy home. No matter how great a father he is to your daughter's, the tension and anger has to be thick. Your girls may not know exactly what the problem is, but they know there are big problems and living in that environment isn't doing them any good at all, unless part of what you want them to learn is that they should follow your example and stay in a marriage they are miserable in. Kids learn what they live. Lead by example.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Living Together
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
>>now tell us the good things. Tell us why you're still there>>
I think the MAIN reason that I am still here is because I didn't (don't) want my dd's to go through another divorce for a few reasons: They desperately wanted him to be their dad when they were little; he helped with homework, he went on field trips with each of them, he was there for them when they were sick or needed to be held, he took us on great camping trips and min-vacations, he tucked them in and sang them a bedtime song. Even though he drives me bananas - and even them at times - they love him with all thier heart and I really think they would be devasted if we broke up at this point. I was thinking that if I chose to leave him, I'd at least wait until they were out of the house, which means another 3-4 years.
When we don't hate each other, we make each other laugh, we have a similar sense of humor, we have a history together and can share a lot of memories with one another. It often feels like we've been together forever.
I think, in part, I am still here because I think I have this dream of what we were stuck in my head. That somehow, we can get back to that point of being happy and content with one another. That all the crap will work itself out. That he really won't wind up like his alcoholic father windbag; and that I won't wind up like his mother, the mute mouth and face, silently pursuing my own interests on the side, evolving around his likes and dislikes.
I think that it's merely a matter of time; we will eventually come to a crossroads and either recommitt to make this marriage fulfilling and loving and enriching or we will simply part and go our separate ways. It is not scary at all to me to be alone at this point. But I would miss what I think we could have to grow old together. And I don't mean that as a romanticized notion = I truly could see us being old together.
>>>How long are you willing to wait for things to change?>>
Well, that's just it, isn't it? I don't know. I already have a couple of calls into a counselor - for ME alone to see. At this point, I don't see any benefit of dragging him along to a counselor, when he only goes because he doesn't want to seem like a jerk by refusing. My exh refused and one day I just left him - H knows this and I think he'd go, but only because he'd be otherwise afraid. In fact, he says that I have some serious issues since I always suggest counseling. He says that my expectations in gereral are too high and that I need to learn to be content with what I have.
Anyway, thanks - I am getting myself to a counselor ASAP.
Everything you said is right on.
What's so ironic is that my whole life I've been running from the alcoholism I was raised with and never wanted my kids to be exposed to an addiction - in fact it was one of the factors of my divorce (his pot addiction) - and yet here we are.
>>Your children are also being affected by his alcoholism.>> Yes, they are, we've discussed it.
The Porn issue is that yes, our old counselor said that she thinks this has the potential of becoming an addiction, and that the masturbation is related. I have no problem with masturbation, but when it's replacing my sex life, then it becomes an issue, you know? You lose me when you said the thing about my compromising on his use of porn by looking the other way. If, instead, I hunted through the house and/or suspected him of using porn at every turn and allowed it to eat me up inside, which it doesn't, that would make me a co-dependent....a program I've been through and researched and know quite a bit about. My trying to control his use of porn is the same as trying to control his drinking - it can't be done and I will lose myself in trying. So, when I say that I won't tolerate it, I mean that I will not allow it in the house and I will not tolerate it between us. Since there is virtually no intimacy between us, I can't say for sure if it's there presently or not. I truly don't know.
Work and money, income, food prep, sharing of chores...everything you said was right on. I definitely feel more like room mates. In fact, I think I may have had more intimacy with my old room mates than I do with my H!
>>What I hear though, is not verbal communication, no compromise, just anger, unspoken thoughts and resentment. If you want it different, you'll have to discuss it with him. Maybe you already have, if so, what did he say?>>
We can't discuss anymore about this. We've moved beyond the point of discussing these issues - it turns into an instant argument and/or nitpicking about it, going back and forth over it. Even my dd might say, "Alright already - you both work hard, we get it."
The house (trust). I may be missing something here, but if I understand you correctly, the title can't be switched to both your names because he can't get a loan, is that right? If that's the case, surely you knew that at the time the deal was originally struck, yes? What was the plan then?>>
Aha, the plan then was that within 6 months he was to pay off his past debts and then we'd have the house and mortgage put into OUR names. 6 months turned into 6 years and now 10 years and it's still his daddy's name. My H has even payed double on the mortgage to bring it down a lot - he wants to keep it this way until it's paid off now. He's changed his mind so much over the years I don't honestly know what his ultimate plan is anymore.
>>Clearly, he doesn't trust you, and doesn't seem to think that putting you in the same vulnerable position he wouldn't dream of putting himself in is any big deal. That speaks to lack of respect, in my opinion. It's good enough for you, but no way would he put himself in that position. You indicate this bothers you. It should, big time.>>
Oh, I have let him know in no uncertain terms that I am unhappy about this situation - it took up several of our counseling appts. He always ends his argument with "I would leave if anything ever happened so you and the girls could stay here..." NOT going to happen. I've pointed out that I have trusted him for all these years to live in this house under these conditions and yet, he won't turn it around for less than a year so we can finally be adult homeowners in our own right. His father micromanages H's money and home and he still doesn't see it or doesn't think it's a big deal.
>>Future. He's not saving money, doesn't have a 401K and isn't interested in setting up any kind of retirement account, and I assume he's not saving for the future now. You sound resentful that he's doing what he wants while you're doing what you know is right, and planning for what you want for your future at the same time.>>
I'm not resentful of his doing what he wants - I'm nervous about what you foresee of my future - taking care of him because he never had the forethought to do so himself. He even says that he doesn't have a 401K because he KNOWS he will be dead before he actually needs it. Okay. That makes perfect sense = he's banking on early death so he won't save for his own retirement.
>>Lack of affection. I have to think, based on what you've said, that there's little positive feelings and emotions going either way. I'm not surprised there's a lack of affection, and, if I were in your situation and my husband were attempting to continue affection as though things were fine and wonderful, I'd be angry, offended and would shut him down the minute he got close to me.>>
In fact, I do this. I was noticing it the other day. I do shut him out now. I used to take whatever affection I could get from him whenever I could because I was so starved. But now I don't seem to mind so much that it's never there. And when he does approach me, all the hurts and resentments get in the way now.
Most of the "assumptions" you've made about my situation are true.
>>"why would you want to (stay in the marriage)?">>
I don't know - I guess I was just trying to see if someone saw some other reason to stick it out. You're right, we've lost a level of respect and consideration for one another's feelings. Even our friends notice it. I don't want to be in an empty relationship just because it's all I know.
>>Your girls may not know exactly what the problem is, but they know there are big problems and living in that environment isn't doing them any good at all, unless part of what you want them to learn is that they should follow your example and stay in a marriage they are miserable in. Kids learn what they live. Lead by example.>>
I tell that same thing to people all the time. There I am, patting myself on the back for leaving my dd's bio-father because he was such a loser pothead, and here I am.
I have a lot to think about and much to talk about with my *new* counselor. Thanks again.
Just to clarify, if I read you right, you'd indicated his use of porn was not a one-time thing, but said this was something you "cannot and will not compromise on". What I was saying was that if you have made that clear, been faced with porn after making that clear, you in fact had and were compromising on it. I may have been wrong, but I understood you to indicate that this was not a one-time use for him as you knew his "porn of choice". If he's heard you take the stand that you will not compromise on porn and knows you're aware that he's used it since, he knows he can use it and you will compromise on it. If you've taken the position to not follow through with your "no tolerance" stand, you've given him the okay to use it and you have compromised on it. The unwritten agreement is "you keep it out of my sight and I won't be forced to make good on my threat."
I truly understand you when you talk about your daughters and how you don't want to hurt them, but adult children are no less devastated by divorce than children. I understand what he's done for them and what he's been to them, I have to wonder, considering the picture you've painted, what their views on him now are.
You're indicating a good possibility of him having two -- and possibly more -- addictions. That greatly ups the possibility that he won't successfully resolve them, not that he's making any moves towards doing that. I, like you, have no problem with masturbation, but yes, if it's taking the place of a sex life, it's a problem; if it's an addiction, it's a problem. As is alcohol, as is porn.
I know kids are the trickiest part of this for you. Growing up with an active addict makes them much more likely to continue the cycle of choosing addicts themselves. It's the personality, the actions, the lifestyle they're used to. They've watched you two interact, they know how to *be* in that kind of relationship. It's the only one they've rehearsed for. They learn their roles and the lines to use by observing your relationship. Tough stuff, I know.
Seeing a therapist for you is a very good thing to do. I'm sorry you're in the position you're in and I wish you all the best.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Living Together
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"