Fights about discipline
Find a Conversation
| Wed, 11-02-2005 - 11:47pm |
Hi all, new poster here. Married 9 years, kids 7, 4, and 4. I wonder if some of you women could give me some advice here. DW and I have been disagreeing about how we should relate to our kids. This means mainly how SHE should relate to them since I'm in the military and am often gone for extended periods (about 9 months this year). She is always worn out and exasperated from fighting with them. They are not bad kids, they are just doing what kids will do if you let them, and she is not tough enough with them. I don't expect her to be a drill sergeant, but if she had better control of them, life would be easier for everybody, the kids included. I also worry that their lack of discipline will become more serious when they are teenagers, and haunt them as adults too.
My parents have noticed this problem. Her parents have noticed it. My sister has noticed it. Everyone has commented on it. She blames them for judging her. Of course I have noticed it too. I try not to bring it up (first rule of being a husband: the wife is always right), but I can't help getting fuming mad when I see the way the kids disrespect her. Sometimes I try to help, but that only makes her mad. The fact that I'm never home for very long makes it harder for me to be more involved. She says I would feel differently if I were home alone with them for months. Actually, I would, because the kids respect me. I don't have to hit them or anything, I just say what I mean and mean what I say instead of being wishy-washy. Like I said, they are good kids at heart, they just take a mile if you give them an inch, like kids will do.
Specific examples are: the twins are plenty capable of wiping their own butts, but she does it for them when they call out "Mommy, I'm done." She says it's not a big deal, but I think any time your kids are controlling you it's a big deal. Another example: when we have spaghetti, there are always three different ways it has to be served--someone wants butter and soy sauce, someone wants only butter, and someone wants only soy sauce. No one will eat it with spaghetti sauce, and even when it's served according to their demands, sometimes they still won't eat it. Another example: the kids are constantly arguing about everything, with each other and with her. She spends hours of each day arguing. I know none of these problems are serious in and of themselves, but they are far from the only ones, just the first ones I thought of. The cumulative effect of these and other seemingly minor problems is that she is constantly frazzled and the kids are constantly less pleasant than I know they are capable of being.
What should I do? We love each other and our marriage is sacred to both of us, but we are not happy now. I want DW to have a better relationship with the kids, and I want to enjoy being at home when I have the time. But she refuses to consider that it might be her fault that they act the way they act. I can't bring it up without her getting mad at me. This issue is driving a big wedge between us, but I just want what's best for the whole family. Any thoughts?
By the way, I found a book called Family Building by John Rosemond that expresses my feelings exactly, and explains that you have to be in charge of your kids. It seems like common sense to me, but DW is not interested in reading it.
R

Pages
I'm not giving you complete answers, so please don't think that I've "decided" this whole thing, I'll likely have more to say in a follow up post, assuming you're responsive to the questions and comments I have.
You're right the twins are old enough to be taking care of themselves in the bathroom. Two things come to mind, she may be continuing to do it longer that she should knowing they're the last of the babies, she may be doing it because it seems easier than taking the time to teach them. Obviously, it would be quicker in the long run to take the time to teach them, but tell her that while she's racing from one chore to the next, "next time" always seems like a time that will be easier to take that extra time in, you know? How frazzled/busy is she? I also think that soon enough those four year olds are going to WANT to do it themselves as they'll be embarassed by friends who don't need their mommies to take care of that for them. Peer pressure has it's perks sometimes :)
As for everybody liking their spaghetti different, I have no problem with that, we all have different taste. As long as the kids (assuming they're old enough) can fix it up the way they like it, no problem. And if they still don't eat it, I have no problem with that either, but since it's what's for dinner, choosing not to eat it means no dinner -- and nothing else until the following day. To me, forcing (or trying to force) them to eat food they don't want or eat it fixed a way they don't like is just a control issue. You're trying to control them and they're trying to hang onto a little control over themselves. Perfectly normal and natural for them to do. It's a whole lot easier (and makes more sense) to let them eat it the way they want than to fight to force them to eat it a way they don't like and don't want. It's like potty-training a child. You can't *make* them pee or poop on command, waiting until they WANT to go to the bathroom on the toilet on their own resolves the whole issue and puts the focus where it belongs -- on the kid who's doing the action.
As for the arguing thing, some kids do -- a lot. If she's in there arguing with them, on their issues, she's wasting a lot of energy. The problem is, you can't make her deal with this any way other than how she wants to. If she's satisfied with it, that's how she's going to deal with it. I know you said you can keep them in line, but you also said you're gone much of the time. Being home occasionally means they're not comfortable with you, and as a result they're going to behave quicker for you than her. You're the unknown quotient so to speak, know what I mean? And if she's dealing with them mostly on her own, it's quite likely - and understandable - that she'd handle some things differently than she'd probably really like to. She's got her hands full dealing with the whole show on her own, she has to learn to pick her battles and let some slide because she can't possibly deal with it all.
I think too, that from her perspective, what she hears from you sounds like criticism. Here she is running herself ragged trying to keep it all together, you come sauntering in on an occasional basis and tell her what she's doing wrong, that the kids are ruling her and bring her books to tell her how to do it better. Can you see how you'd feel if someone brought you a "how to do it better" book when you hadn't asked for help? I think you might get a lot further with this if you approached it differently. I'd drop the book as well as any and all voiced observations of what's wrong, what could/should be better, etc. for a while. Let her forget that you came in and told her what she was doing wrong. When you see her struggling with things (arguments or some kid issue she's struggling with, try genuinely asking, "how can I help?", let her direct what she'd like you to do and be a partner, a team player, letting her call the shots since it's really, "her show". Does that make sense? After a while (weeks, I'd say) mention what's going well (without comparing it to something that's not going well) and let it go at that. Talk about the kids, the hectic pace, maybe tell her you don't know how she does it, how she keeps it all together. What you're aiming for is for her to share with you her frustrations and concerns and from there you can begin to offer thoughts and suggestions on what she's concerned about and/or interested in doing differently. Does that make sense? Be her friend, partner and confidante so you can deal with these issues as a partner rather than someone who's judging and critiquing the job she's doing.
I also suggest you post your questions on the Pregnancy & Parenting channel's Military Families board. They are a great group of women who are in the thick of exactly what you're talking about. You'll even find a member or two who's been on both sides of being the soldier who's away and the mom at home. They should have some great insight and suggestions for you too.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Edited 11/3/2005 1:30 am ET by cl-2nd_life
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful reply. Let me address some of the points you made.
1. The bottom-wiping issue really only bothers me because the kids used to do it for themselves and I therefore know that not only can they do it, they KNOW they can do it. They just want her to, and she gives in.
2. The eating issue: I understand that we can't make them eat things they don't want to eat. But here's what typically happens at our house. DS/7 doesn't want to eat what we are having, and says so. DW finally finds something he will agree to eat, and she serves it to him. He still doesn't eat it. She nags him for 20 minutes and he picks at it a little, then stops. We figure he just wasn't hungry. But now he wants dessert. Of course as soon as he mentions it, everyone wants dessert. DW agrees on popsicles. An hour later, guess what? DS/7 is hungry and DW gives him a bowl of cereal before bed. She complains that she's constantly having to feed everyone, but she wouldn't have to if she would just tell them they have to eat at meals or be hungry, and stick to it.
3. You are absolutely right about her feeling criticized. She has complained to me more than once that I come home after leaving her alone for months to run the house by herself, and try to tell her what she's doing wrong--just what you said.
I have tried, many times, asking "How can I help?" Her most common response to that is "fold the laundry." I do my best to help out around the house when I'm home, washing dishes, cooking breakfast and often dinner too, going shopping, staying home with the kids while she goes shopping, etc. By the way, when I'm home alone with the kids, they are much more pleasant than when she is home. Not perfect, but as good as can be expected from young kids. Same thing is true at school, church, with babysitters, at friends' houses, etc. Any time their mother is not around, they act decent. Any time she IS around, they expect her to be at their beck and call, and she is.
She's like a full-time servant/playmate to them, and constantly has to respond to their demands. This is the crux of the problem. It drives me CRAZY to see it because I love her and want her to be in control of her own life instead of being controlled by sweet but naturally greedy children.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
R
Edit: I should add that she likes to work hard and be busy (I don't understand that LOL but it doesn't bother me). If she were happy being consumed by our children, then I would be less bothered by it. But I know she isn't happy (she tells me). So my situation is I know she isn't happy, and I know why, but I don't know how to make her see the solution. That's why I put this thread in Problem Solving for Couples rather than one of the parenting boards, though I have now reposted it in Military Families as you suggested. I see it as more of a communication issue than anything else.
Edited 11/3/2005 9:29 am ET by rd006
Hmm....communication issue.
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Your kids run the household and her when you aren't there and for some reason, she likes it this way....either she doesn't want to be the 'bad guy', doesn't want them to be independent or doesn't like enforcing boundaries. Until she hears it from someone else or gets help, nothing is going to change. How sad for your children too.
Five Love Languages of Children, by Gary Chapman
Dare to Discipline, James Dobson - he makes a great point about children running to the adults in their lives for boundaries, trying to find out 'who the boss is' because it's scary to be the boss of yourself (and others) as children.
Carrie
Well, you clearly understand both sides of the issue. And I think you are exactly right about her thought process. She describes it as "trying to survive." To me it looks like what you call constant triage, or what I call putting out fires. What amazes me is how long she has been able to tolerate the situation. It's not new, by the way; it's been like this since the twins were born. When they were babies, she was consumed by caring for them, which is unavoidable when you have twins and no family nearby to help. I hoped it would get better as they matured, but now they are starting to read and she is still consumed by caring for them.
I guess you are right that I can't help her unless she asks for my help. The problem with that is that she never will. She is very independent and self-reliant, which is good in many (most) ways, but makes it hard for her to admit when she has a problem. I doubt I will ever be able to help her with this. Maybe the best I can do is to stop making her feel guilty about it.
I guess I will drop the books as you suggest, and go back to trying to be nonjudgmental. I just hope I have enough self-control to keep my mouth shut in the future. It's so hard watching someone you love engaging in self-destructive behavior. The hardest part for me is that I can't let on even a little bit that I'm annoyed by the way the kids treat her, because she notices everything. She accuses me (rightly, I have to admit) of "huffing" when I disapprove of her parenting methods. A few times I have been so frustrated that I actually left the house to cool off. Maybe focusing on how important it is to her to not be judged will give me the strength to go clean the bathroom or something instead of sitting on the couch getting mad at everyone.
Thanks so much for your excellent advice and wish me luck.
R
One more question for the ladies here: when I apologize, DW is still going to know what I think, and she's going to call me on it, like this:
Me: "I'm sorry. I had no right to judge you like that."
DW: "But that's what you think, isn't it?"
Me: "Uhhhhh..."
How do I answer honestly without restarting the fight? Or is it OK to tell a white lie here? And if so, what's the best one to use?
Edited 11/3/2005 1:59 pm ET by rd006
RD, I very much sympathise with you. It would be very frustrating to see your partner parenting the kids in a different style to what you would do. And for the record, some of what your wife does would not happen in my home. However, because you're not there most of the time, I don't see that there's a lot that you can do.
To me, co-parenting is about team work. I do the best I can and DH does his best. And because we are both there every evening we both have influence on how the children are raised. If I were in the same situation as your wife, I would get upset that I'm left to do this on my own for 9 months of the year and then get criticised when you arrive home. If you want her to try it your way, you've gotta be there to support her.
I will admit that I'm a rather 'black and white' person with my views of life. And the way I see it, you can't be away for 9 months of the year and also expect to be able to have influence on the way your children are raised. I understand that they are well behaved for you, but almost all kids behave better for someone they don't know so well .... and let's face it, they wouldn't view you as a full-on father when you're not there most of the time.
If you really want to have influence on how they are raised, you may need to re-consider careers.
I don't think she has to ask for help. (I'm assuming a bit here and know it, so I may be off) I imagine right now she feels like you're "the enemy" as far as house and family issues go. She sees you as someone who disapproves with how she's doing things. She "notices everything" because she's ultra-sensitive to your judgment. She's hyper-aware. She feels defensive, withdrawn and certainly is not sharing. She probably feels she needs to "prove" that everything's fine, working well and she's happy with how it all is, even if that's not how she really feels. She certainly doesn't see you as a partner in this, she doesn't see you as a help or as a confidante. If you can back of your vocalization and your huffing (when I'm dealing with a big problem, I sigh heavily, so I can relate to your huffing -- good luck stopping it!), keep your body language and your face from showing upset, displeasure or tenseness, be non-judgmental and be a help to her, she'll begin to back off her defensive feelings and see you as a help, a partner. If leaving the house is an act that's done by stomping, slamming, or is otherwise known that you're leaving out of frustration, that's out too. If you can find an excuse that calmly takes you to the garage, or a need to go to the store, etc. that's all good, but it needs to be done without so much as a hint of "leaving to get the hell out of here". If/when she voices being tired of dealing with a situation, frustrated, aggravated, etc., you can begin to dialog with her. Empathy will take you far. What you want is for her to tell you she's frustrated with the situation, then you can talk to her (not at her). Ask what she thinks might make this better, easier to deal with, let her lead the conversation, you steer it by asking easy questions. The trick is to let her be the one who comes up with the solution. For instance, don't jump in and offer your plan or your beliefs on how it should go, but you could (only after she's voice a thought or two) ask her "what would happen if you did this..." let her think through your question, she might just think it would work, but you won't be telling her what to do, just offering your thoughts, bouncing ideas, letting her come up with things on her own. Make sense? The less judged she feels and the more help you are the quicker you'll get to the place where she'll feel she can confide in you. If you're helping around the house and not disapproving of what she does with the kids, she'll put her guard down and see you as a partner. Do both of you a favor and leave the kid with a sitter and go out and have a great night together too. An overnighter at a hotel would be great (weekend would be much better). She could use some time away from the house and kids and all the work and pressure that goes with it. Could your parents or your sister take the kids for a weekend? If your wife's had these kids 24/7 while you've been gone forever, it means she's been on duty without a break for that long. She deserves and really needs some down time -- it'll help her recharge and be more able to cope in a better way too. Honest.
If your emotions show and you come off upset or judgmental (you are human after all) I would make sure she understands that the reason you feel this way is that you hate to see her so frazzled, so overwhelmed, so overworked. That says care and concern, not judgment. You said, "It's so hard watching someone you love engaging in self-destructive behavior.", so use that when your tension shows, but change it around a bit, say something like, It's so hard to see someone you love so overwhelmed all the time". "Self-destructive" is a negative, a judgment, you want to stay away from those. Stick with words that don't convey "choosing poorly".
And I really do think a family therapist is a great option for you, better than all the beating around the bush I suggested above. It gets to the heart of the matter immediately, puts it out in an environment that will allow for discussion and problem solving that can and likely will result in real positive change. I know you military guys tend to be especially adverse to therapy/counseling (not all of you though) and I know part of that is due to the military's stand on mental health issues. Going off base to a civilian counselor will keep that from being an issue, and it would be really beneficial to all, you, your wife, and the kids individually, as well as your marriage, and your family.
Me: "I'm sorry. I had no right to judge you like that."
DW: "But that's what you think, isn't it?"
Me: "What I think is that you've got a huge job to do here and you have no help doing it. I think I have no right to saunter in here and tell you you're doing it all wrong. I think until I have your job I don't know how it really is." Boy will you get points -- and you won't have lied, will you?
**Edited to say:
When I suggested the Military Families board I did so not because I saw this as a "military problem", but because the women there have been in your wife's shoes and can make suggestions based on their experience of the same situation that may prove to be an invaluable insight.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Edited 11/4/2005 2:02 am ET by cl-2nd_life
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Thanks again for your thoughtful and comprehensive answers. I think you are exactly right about everything. I can't tell you how grateful I am that you took the time to write such wonderful responses to my post.
:)
Hey R! You found us! I remember your post on Military Families...
Good Luck! These are great ladies!
Piano Teacher, Fur-mom Extraordinaire!
(I got a new username, I used to be RD006)
OK, so we had another conversation yesterday. Keep in mind we are separated by 5 time zones, so it's not that convenient for us to talk, although we still talk on the phone at least an hour a day.
My wife was complaining that she can't stay up in the living room to unwind with some TV after the kids to go bed, because they will keep getting up (thirsty, hungry, too hot, too cold, etc.) and she can't relax. I tried to listen without judging, and gently guide the conversation so that she would come up with the solution (which is obvious to me--make sure they have what they need, then tell them that after bed time they don't get to see her until morning and stick to it--but I know it won't do any good to tell her what I think).
The problem is that she doesn't see any solution and I don't think she ever will, because she feels like she has to be available for them at all times. If I go so far as to suggest that she might not HAVE to answer them every time they call, she thinks I'm acting like a monster (she actually hung up on me yesterday). I think you gave great advice, but I just don't know if it's going to work. She fundamentally does not seem to understand that parents don't have to respond to every demand their children make. I should clarify that she doesn't give into all their demands, but she will spend up to an hour listening and explaining why they have to go to bed now, etc. And she never refuses to listen to them, no matter how many times they have asked the same question or made the same demand.
I've told her I don't think it's her fault things are so hard. After all, it wouldn't be so hard if my job hadn't taken her to a new place where she doesn't know anybody and is thousands of miles from family and friends. And the house she's living in isn't ideal either. But even as I tell her it's not her fault, she knows and I know that I think she could make it a lot better.
I am seriously considering going together for some counseling when I get home. I just think that if the counselor doesn't agree with my wife's philosophy of child-rearing (constant availability that is), then she won't trust him/her and will blame me for trying to change her.
I guess she probably just wants to vent when she tells me how hard it is. I was probably too quick to try to steer the conversation to a solution. But how can I listen without trying to solve, when the solution is so obvious? I think this is the real question of my post. I'm sorry I rambled so much. Thanks,
FlyBoy (formerly RD006)
Pages