Am I being irrational?
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| Sat, 09-30-2006 - 11:51am |
I have been living with a man for 1 and 1/2 years now. I have known him 2 1/2 years and we have both been divorced for 4 years. Without stating ages let me just say we both have a bit of salt running through our hair. This man has a heap of baggage in the way of an ex-wife. This is a woman who hates and yet doesn't want to let go of the man she used to be married to. This may sound odd, but I feel there are many times when she depends on him to yell at her. She is always trying to turn the children against their father and tries to make herself out to be the victim. She can not manage her finances and on many occassions he has had to bail her out of trouble (electric bill not being paid, not saving enough in taxes come April 15th, etc.). This is a woman who clears $4,000 a month (including her child support). I spend more time with her sons than she does. She is always going out with the older daughters (one of whom is married and on her own), but is always leaving her sons with me +/or their father. Even on the nights when she is suppose to keep them (they are about Junior high in age). Okay, those are the basics about her.
My boyfriend is fiercely devoted to his children. The more time they spend with us the better (which is truly a redeeming quality), and they spend I would guess 85 - 90% of their time with us. He looks at his child support as paying ransom to his ex-wife for the ability to be with them more often. Because his ex-wife is incapable of taking care of herself and is more often than not, "hell on wheels" (that's the nicest way I could say it)... she has come over and cursed and screamed at him in the front yard in front of the children... he feels he needs to put up with her and try not to rock the boat for the sake of his kids. The less he rocks her boat, the calmer the seas for the kids. This is to a point where they are on the phone several times a day, generally trying to figure out who is going to take the kids where and when, and where did she lose their belongs (uniforms, etc) this time. There is no set schedule for the children except when he leaves for a 48 hour shift every other weekend. Even that is not as set as it used to be as the children, knowing I am home, are spending more and more time here (this is not a problem other than those are the weekends I really scrub the house and it's not easy when they are there). Okay those were his basics.
This past week we were discussing taking a trip in November. It ended up that we didn't have the money for the trip. My boyfriend suggested to me that we invite the ex-wife along (she would have her own place to stay) so that she could pay for the kid's tickets. He said he doesn't want her along, but he didn't want his kids to miss out on this opportunity. That and the ex-wife gets upset when we take the kids on these kinds of trips because she always wanted to do that when they were married. I asked why she doesn't just take the kids on her own trips and the answer ended up being she is afraid to take them out of the country by herself (to her defense on that one she does have extreme difficulty seeing and is not allowed to drive at night). At any rate... I couldn't believe he would even consider having her along and I felt he was trying to guilt me in to saying she could by telling me how afraid she is to go alone and telling me he didn't want the kids to miss out. Then just a few hours later he wanted to know if I felt it was okay to call and talk to her about her finances. He wanted to give her advice on what to do with the money she had left from a part of the divorce that was just settled and to find out if it was about to run out. I didn't feel this was really any of his business. He said he just wants to know when she is going to become even more crabby, because she will when she has no money. Back to the vacation... I had also asked (after he mentioned the ex) if perhaps my parents could come along on the trip since they have been wanting to take a vacation and are looking to do so in the very near future. Later he told me that my asking if my parents could come along was the same as him asking is he could bring his ex along. I personally don't think it is even close to the same thing.
Needless to say, I have been rather confused, hurt, angry and am feeling a bit insecure. I feel he does too much for his ex-wife in the name of not rocking the boat. I personally feel he needs to take her to court and get full custody of the kids, but if I mention that, while he agrees, he says it would be too traumatic for the kids and he doesn't want to put them through that. So in the mean time I am a bit resentful that she talks to him nearly more than I do. She does next to nothing for the children other than try to buy their love with toys and Burger King and yet she is getting all the attention in the name of not rocking the boat. I feel the order of importance in his life is his children, then his ex-wife by default because if she is upset it upsets the children, then maybe me. And I am suppose to just understand and be happy because I love him. What it feels like is that, while he may not want to be with her physically nor live with her, they are still married. On another note, the first year he and I were going out I still considered myself friends with my ex-husband. Once a month or so, he and I would talk for 30 to 60 minutes. We had been friends first and all through high school. At that time I didn't see anything wrong with being friends with him (yes, we have one child together who recently started college). We didn't do things together or anything like that, we just spoke about what was happening in our lives. Through couples counselling I found out that this was very inappropriate and I stopped talking with him at all. Truthfully I am better for finally having let that portion of my life go. I never realized how much even talking with him was dragging my life down. I never had many friends and at that time didn't think I could give up even one. I was wrong. I've made the mistake of comparing my conversations with me ex to his conversations with his. While I know the topics of conversation are vastly different because he detests his ex-wife it's the frequency of the communication that I see as the issue. He said I am comparing apples to watermelons. I said I thought it was more like comparing macintosh to granny smiths. I truly don't feel they need to have as much contact as they do, but when I mentioned this he says I am just upset that I can't talk to my ex-husband. I can assure you I am not upset about that. I have thanked him on many occasions for helping set me free from that. That song "You don't know what you've got til it's gone"... doesn't have to mean that you miss it. I didn't know I was wearing concrete shoes until others freed me from them.
Please tell me am I being irrational for being upset with this situation? Am I feeling sorry for myself? Am I trying to put myself before his children? or is his relationship with his ex above and beyond a normal relationship with an ex? If you do feel I am being irrational could you please try to explain to me why so maybe I can understand.
I'm sorry for the length of this letter. I had a lot more I could have said. If you could please give me your two-cents and let me know what you think you would be doing in this situation, it would be greatly appreciated.
Seapines

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No, I don't think you're being irrational. I'm floored that he suggested that his ex should come along on your vacation!
You mentioned couples counseling--are you still going? It seems like this is something that needs to be hashed out with the help of your counselor. Although frankly, I don't understand why your friendship with your ex was deemed inappropriate yet your SO's much more frequent contact is ok. Why the double standard? If you have a child with your ex, wouldn't being friendly with your ex be more beneficial to your child? If "the well being of the kids" is the reason your SO talks to his ex so much, why wouldn't the same standard apply to you? I don't get that. In any event, it sounds to me like your friendship with your ex was much less harmful to your relationship than your SO's contact with his ex is!
I'm curious--how old are his kids? Maybe this is just something that will need to be tolerated to some extent until the kids are off to college.
Sheri
Is he a bit of a control freak? Sounds like he wants to run everybody's lives here.
His excuses for interfering in his ex's affairs are ridiculous. I would not be happy with this situation atall.
I think i would put my foot down here and tell him this is unacceptable behaviour and it has to stop or you two don't have a future. This holiday idea is disaster waiting to happen. Sounds like the children involved are fairly old, certainly old enough to understand what is going on, i am sure they are not going to go to pieces if he has very little to do with their mother.
This all sound very messy, you must love him deeply to have put up with all this, this long.
She is the mother of his children but that shouldn't put her before you in the pecking order.
Hi Seapines,
I have to tell you, the thought of a husband wanting to invite his malicious ex-wife along on a vacation pretty much gave me a crazy eye twitch.
One of the two of you needs to grow a spine in this situation. Either he does and puts his ex, if she is indeed an ex in his estimation, in her place--and with the use of the courts if need be--or he returns to her and puts his neck in the yoke once more. Or you and you end things and move out and away from someone who is debasing your esteem by cowtowing to such a woman as this. He is engaging in emotional adultery with her.
Here is an essay that Itwinflame posted on one of the other boards which speaks, in part, to your circumstances--your boyfriend needs to read it:
Male Emotional Adultery Essay
When the ex remarried she seemed to think that she was entitled to two husbands. There was the good husband who received all the “benefits”. There was also the bad husband who received all the blame. Needless to say, I was the latter. After having observed this rather bigamous state of affairs for a year or two I finally informed the ex that if she needed someone to scream at, revile and expend her considerable anger on, she’d better look closer to home because I was not available and hadn’t been since the divorce.
My mistake, for several years, was continuing to feel some responsibility for the ex, even though we had both remarried. It was very difficult to break a 25-year habit of always trying to fix things. That had been my assigned role all those years. It took awhile to realize that fixing things was no longer my responsibility except within the boundaries of my own marriage. When the ex’s husband was killed in a car accident a little over three years after they were married, I was ready to lend assistance and this time my wife called me on it. She correctly pointed out that it was no longer my place, was no longer my responsibility and most likely wouldn't be appreciated anyway. As usual, she was quite correct.
Did I feel guilty about the divorce? Probably, even though I wasn't the one who initiated the whole process. In typical male fashion I couldn't reconcile not being a daily presence in the lives of my daughters. The ex figured that one out and tried to play on my feelings to extract more and more for me under the guise of it all being for my daughters. For awhile, it worked and I gave and gave. Then I realized that I was being manipulated and was also sending the wrong message to my children – that Dad was merely a convenient and deep pocket whose only value was that which could be preceded by a dollar sign. The bottom line was that the girls had two parents and I was not solely responsible for their well-being. Bye, bye guilt. Hello resolve. It was easy. It just took awhile to get there. Sometimes you just have to stand up for what you believe and really think about the message you're sending your children. That's especially important when you've remarried. It’s your wife who deserves your undivided loyalty and support, not the ex.
Over the years, too many wives have voiced the legitimate complaint that their husband continues to dance to the tune of his ex's manipulation. There are only two women to whom a husband owes the duties of loyalty and obedience, and even they have to deserve it. Those women are his wife, first, and his mother, second. To permit any other woman to exercise that degree of control and influence over him is emotional adultery and nothing less.
Gentleman, there's a reason that you and the ex are no longer married. Whether you're the one who left or, as is most often the case, she is, she is no longer your wife. She is no longer your partner. She is no longer your lover. She is the ex. If you have children together she will always be their mother but that is all the status she merits and deserves. She should be respected and valued for that, just as you should be respected and valued as their father.
In this venue, most, if not all, experience certain problems and frustrations connected with the ex. Why, then, would you bow and scrape before her, to the detriment of your childrens’ respect for you as a man and male role model, not to mention your wife's? Most especially, why would you permit her to dictate to you on all matters pertaining to the children to include disrupting your own family life to be at her beck-and-call, to the frustration of your wife and the detriment of your marriage?
If this describes you, you are guilty of emotional adultery. You're also giving-in to emotional blackmail and are permitting your children to be used as wedge issues and bargaining chips. Isn't it time to rear up on your hind legs, throw your head back and roar out your final independence from someone with whom you now have only indirect ties?
What your children truly deserve is happy and emotionally healthy parents, both of them, and steps as well. Your former marriage didn't work. Accept it and concentrate on your current marriage. Put your wife and your marriage first and you'll be giving your children the true gift you didn't give them while with their mother. That gift is the living and loving example of a strong marriage in which respect and mutuality are foremost, where a united front is common and consistent and happiness and contentment are evident. This is the example your children will take with them into their own adult relationships. You can’t change or fix what went before so concentrate on what you have now.
The biggest question and issue of all is this: Do your dealings with the ex cause a lack of harmony in your marriage? If the answer to that is, “Yes!”, then what ARE you doing.? Where do your loyalties lie and what are you going to do to take back control of your life from someone who no longer belongs in the middle of it?
Oh, yeah. If you did answer “yes” you'd better be coming home with flowers and taking your wife out for a very romantic dinner because, Buddy, you need to start courting her all over again. This time, don't stop, ever!
I, like the others, do not think you're being irrational or unreasonable. I understand that he does some of what he does to keep things going the way they are in respect to the kids, but I have a hard time believing that all that he does is for that reason; he may have convinced himself that's the case, but I doubt it's for real.
A couple of quick questions and comments.
In respect to him wanting to invite his ex on vacation with you, how do you think he'd respond to you suggesting your ex go along? Would he be okay with that or would he think that's inappropriate? If he wouldn't like it (and I doubt he would) then regardless of why he wants to ask his ex, it's not okay and he should be able to see that. I liked your comparison of Granny Smiths to McIntosh, by the way, and I agree.
When you say he's responsible for you breaking ties with your ex, how did that come about? It stuns me that he would urge you to break away then make excuses why completely inappropriate contact with his own ex is acceptable.
As for gaining full custody of the kids, I don't think that would change anything about the arrangement he already has with her. I know laws vary from state to state, but when my ex and I divorced we had shared custody. Later, I took him back to court on financial issues regarding the kids, it came out that while custody was shared he had made no attempt to see the kids for months and months. The judge awarded full custody to me, and urged my ex to begin seeing the kids on a regular basis. In other words, it didn't affect the previous "every other weekend, holidays, etc." schedule at all. I would urge him to talk to his lawyer about what's going on and get his advice and thoughts on what could/should be done and what the outcome would likely be. Until he does that he really has no idea whether gaining full custody would disrupt anything or not, it certainly wouldn't mean the kids couldn't or wouldn't see her. If the kids have been spending the vast majority of their time with you, I'd think it's almost certain that there would be no question that custody would be granted, no fuss or ruckus would be raised. In my case it was said and done in a 15 minute court proceeding - and I hadn't even asked for it.
The bad part is here. It's his choice how he approaches this, whether he continues to pay out and be her "husband in the wings", it's his choice whether he ever divorces her or not. What you know for certain is he's currently handling things the way he chooses to handle them. You may hate what he's doing, but you don't have a say in it. You do have a say in what you accept and choose to allow in a relationship, but the rest is out of your hands. It seems to me that he's merely playing not married, but in many ways still playing the role of husband to her. While I personally don't feel a divorce decree is necessary when being in a relationship with someone else (assuming I feel very secure in that the marriage relationship will not resume, feelings are no longer involved, etc.), in your situation, I think I'd be asking if/when he planned to go through with the actual divorce. I'm not sure I'd be very comfortable continuing as things are. I am curious about the circumstances surrounding him playing a part in you breaking ties with your ex, I hope you'll let me know about that.
~ cl-2nd_life"Experience is what you get
when you don't get what you want."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
In my failed marriage I took care of my ex, I paid the bills, I fixed any messes he made, and I took care of him.
Emily
.emily.
Kim,
Thank you for your reply it was a great help. I actually thank everyone. You mentioned that he has no responsibility to his ex-wife, only to his children. He feels that all of this is necessary for his children's well-being. Without electricity the children have no heat when they are with her, she can't keep track of uniforms, clothing, etc. so he has to talk to her to find out where the stuff is and make her find it... etc. We've tried us having stuff for the kids and her having stuff but it doesn't work because she loses it or never washes it then the kids end up missing out or being embarassed and to stop that we step in. The one thing I wasn't seeing in any of this until I started reading the replies was that I am just as guilty of playing her game (he doesn't feel it is game playing, he truly feels she is this inept). I don't know how many times I have called my BF and asked if his ex was picking up the children or did we need to take them (which in turn causes him to call her). I'm realizing I should be calling her with these questions or we should just assume she won't be unless she finally lets us know. I have a feeling that if I start talking to her more and he starts talking to her less we will see a new ex-wife. I'm just not sure if it will be a better one or a much more angry one. And if it's the latter then we go through the circle again of her anger affects the children negatively.
What I really needed from my post was to know if I was wrong feeling this situation needs to change. When figuring out how to deal with a problem you need to first figure out if it is something you emotionally need to fix within yourself or are there outside factors relatively out of your control that you need to figure out how to deal with. This board has helped a heap in that regard. I love this man with all my heart. If I felt all of this contact was for any other reason than he truly believes it is best for the children, I would have left a long time ago. But I know he does not want to be with this woman. I know he loves me. He is doing what he honestly feels is the best thing for his children and I doubt I can get him to see differently. Though a later post has a wonderful essay that I am hoping he will read with an open mind and heart. He has told me that he is open to new ways of approaching this and open to the possibility that the way he is doing things isn't truly the best way, but for now, until he can see a better way, he feels this is best for the kids and it will continue. I think if I truly believed she was this inept and wasn't just playing games it would be much easier. I wish I had suggestions for how things could be different and effect the children positively, but there is no guarantee that the desired effect would be achieved regardless what is tried. Somehow I have to figure out how to be at peace with all this, knowing that he truly doesn't want anything to do with her and that he does love me with all of his heart.
We have discussed the vacation issue, which is truly the thread that unraveled me in this whole situation. I don't think I could adequately explain briefly what it ended up being, but that issue is resolved. The ex forever more will never be mentioned in the same sentence as vacation (at least not as in going along).
Thank you again for your reply.
Kelly
Hello cl-2nd_life!
This board has been a great help, I am glad I came here.
You had a few questions... As far as what would my BF have said if I had asked my ex to come on vacation... I tried that... his response was "if he's going to pay for the kid's tickets, bring him along". On the vacation note though, we have discussed it more and we came to some realizations. It would be too difficult to explain, but it is resolved. As I told someone else, the ex will forever more NEVER be mentioned in the same sentence as vacation (at least as in not coming along on one with us).
As for the ties with my ex... my contact with him was inappropriate. I was having personal conversations with him as if he were a girlfriend (not every day or every week, but personal when they occured none the less). I would tell him the problems I was having and he would tell me his. The counselor pointed out that I was being emotionally intimate with him and that was wrong. The reason my BF had a play in my realization this was wrong was because on top of discussing things with my ex, I was not discussing things with my BF. I never felt like he really listened to what I was trying to say. It turned out we just communicate vastly differently and we had to learn how to talk to each other. Actually when things hurt deeply it is still difficult and we tend to slip in to our old patterns (though not talking to the ex, and from now on I will just come here :-).
On to the custody. I have to agree that nothing would really change if he gained full custody except he would no longer pay her child support. Quite frankly, if she lost that money I can envision her giving the anti-christ a run for his money. I already try to imagine what it is going to be like when the youngest one graduates from High School at 18 and that money stops. I'm not seeing a pretty picture there.
I really needed to know if I was being irrational or if others felt things should be different too. I love him a great deal and I know that he really is only doing this because he truly believes it is best for the children. He does not want to be with her. He does love me. I know these things. I feel she is playing games with her neediness and inabilities. He thinks she is truly that inept. If I thought she was that incapable this could probably be easier. He keeps telling me I need to learn how to let go of things that bother me like this. If I know he loves me and I know he doesn't want to be with her, then just trust him and let this go. He even tried to quote Eleanor Roosevelt and tell me "people can only hurt you if you let them". I'm not sure that is always true, but in this case it may apply. He has said that he is open to suggestions on how to change things and make them easier, but he has to believe it will be best for the kids. I love that he is so devoted to his children, there are so many men who are not. Realizing that I can not really change this situation to any real degree I must figure out how to let it go because I know I do not want to leave him.
Any suggestions?
Thanks for talking with me,
Kelly
I'm glad you feel the board helped. I find that I get ideas and thoughts that I'd never have come up with on my own, and often viewpoints that make total sense, but again, would have escaped me. It's also great to bounce your problem off an unbiased group and find they don't think you're over reacting.
I hope this issue resolves for you in a way that's positive for you, him and the kids.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
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