Please give advice..

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-03-2003
Please give advice..
8
Tue, 02-10-2004 - 3:34pm
I had met this guy on this single online site last August. We hit it off. He was the perfect gentleman. I was dating a few others at the same time. All plantonic. Since December I decided to not date anyone but this person. We started to see one another on a more regular basis. He would call me everynight. Our relationship took a step further when he invited me to his place on weekends. I thought we were really connecting. I knew that he still had a profile on this dating site. I was okay with that. I wanted to not rush anything. He had told me that he was no longer in the site since meeting me. That was the first lie. But I brushed it aside. Recently my gal pal, whom he had met on one occassion was online in this site and had seen him online. She sent him a quick smile and he messaged her. She asked him about his weekend...she knew that we spent the weekend together. She had her picture posted out front on her single profile so she thought that he would know who she was. Well needless to say he started to come onto her. She ended the conversation, thinking perhaps that he was teasing her, or perhaps had even been drinking. The next morning she told me what had happened. I went into the single site and seen that he deleted his profile. Turns out after some time he did recongize her. I have not talked to him since, nor has he called. At this point I know that I have developed deep feelings for this person and am unsure what to do know. We had never discussed being exclusive....I guess I just took it for granted that we were. This guy has not really had a serious relationship in the last 10 years. He had focussed on his career and travelling. Does anyone have any suggestions?
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 02-10-2004 - 3:44pm
There's no suggestion - just don't continue contact unless you want to.

First, tehre was no exclusivity arrangement - so he didn't violate anything by flirtation, or by sleeping around with somenoe else if he did, or by keeping his profile on the site.

So, in the future - don't "you" decide that you're going to be exclusive and invest more emotionally - until you find out if they want that.

He hasn't had a serious relationships in 10 years because his priorities are on his career, and traveling, and keeping his options open.

He hasn't pursued contact....he figured out that your friend was who he was flirting with, figured it would get back to you and you wouldn't want to have more contact with him knowing he didn't want exclusivity and wasn't being exclusive.

If his assumption is correct, don't contact him or accept contact. What you're emotionally attached to is the knight in shining armor persona that YOU assumed him to be.....you're most assuredly NOT emotionally enamored with the guy that was hitting on your pal on-line in order to "set up a meeting" - and that is 100% who this guy is, without you editing, screening, softening, and shading the "picture of him that you have'.

Erin

quickblade14@hotmail.com

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-03-2003
Tue, 02-10-2004 - 5:37pm
Thank you for responding Erin....I do know that I should not assume I meant more to this man. I feel that perhaps I was miss guided somewhat, but my own assumptions. First off....he talked alot about "future". Us doing things together....which is good....and then I met his family and friends, all his doing. My first meeting with his family, involved them preparing a really nice dinner all at my expense. Family friends arrived to meet me. We spent last weekend and he had bought a book which contained floor plans. We had both talked about our love of living in the country and having a dream log house. He had also started to question more about my children. So maybe I read to much into that. Thank you so much for your comments and advice.

Jennifer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 02-10-2004 - 7:46pm
Some of the wisest advice I got about "dating" - back when I didn't understand what it was (unfortunately when I was a single parent and shouldn't have been doing it if I didn't understand it as a concept!) is that "everybody has a future and everybody talks about it". But it doesn't mean that they're discussing a future "with you".

The first 3-9 months of any dating situation is infatuation. It's "your desire for me makes me feel so great about myself i can't get enough of you". It's a feelings oriented environment, it doesn't lend itself to objectivity and discernment about this person's character and standards and values.

So during infatuation - enjoy the feelings - but don't act on them as if they're facts, goals, or calls to action. Enjoy the giddy high of dressing 3 times on Friday night, and all that kind of "fun stuff" - it'll only be that "intense" once and be something to reflect on if the relationship works out.

The second thing they told me is that 'dating is not a relationship and not everybody dating is looking for a relationship, and everybody that is dating and looking for a partner doesn't share your values, standards, priorities and goals."

So dating is a time when they "get to know you" - you be yourself, enjoy the high of being desired - but do not intertwine, intersperse, entangle, commit, cohabitate or start "planning the future" - while dating during infatuation. Let them see the real you - be less worried about impressing and pleasing them and be more concerned if seeing if they meet your standards and needs withoout your supervision or requirement.

It's important ot realize that peopple that are NOT dating to find a partner....are dating to date. Dating is about the moment - it's fun, sex if you're willing, companionship, conversation, shared interests and viewpoints - but there is no "future" there. So during dating - always live by your standards. Don't meet parents if that is "significant" to you - until there is concrete knowledge of this person as an individual. And realize if they ask you to meet theirs early on - it's because it has NO significance in terms of the future and you shouldn't read anything into it.


As the superstar said when arrested for solicitation of prostitution - "I wasn't paying her for sex your honor, I was paying her to go home." People dating for the fun and pleasure of dating - that is precisely what they're doing - they're not paying for the privilege of getting to know you - they're paying for you to go home after they enjoy your company. Don't forget it.

That said, don't use your children as a gauge of anything.....if you want to really get a bad mix going, use your children as a gauge of whether or not to "proceed" with a relationship. Introduce the man as an equal or someone who's got to get their approval, adn the children will eventually have every man you bring in doing the hot coal dance, and getting benefits and privileges - while learning to emotionally detact from everybody in life - including you.

The lastly....realize that people do waht they do because they want to do it. Their values and standards and priorities justify and entitle them to their actions, feelings, thoughts, decisions, words, ideas, and desires. Those same values determine their character, conscience, integrity and honor in every regard and venue.

He didn't do anything he did because he admired, respected and accepted you as an individual of importance in his life - he did everything he did becuase he wanted to, it suited his needs, his purposes, his goals, his agenda. Before you cringe and say "how self-serving" - realize we all do it.

Everything you did with him - you wanted to, you thought it would meet your needs, you thought it would further your agenda.

Everybody is operating on that principle....that is why it's imperative to know if the people you're dealing with are value oriented vs operating on situational ethics. YOu won't know that for quite some time, don't do anything that you'll regret during that initial period - give to them waht you want them to have, not because you want something in return.

Erin

quickblade14@hotmail.com

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-06-2003
Wed, 02-11-2004 - 9:53am
Erin, I don't want to hijack jennifer's thread here but, I've got a question. I completely agree with your take on dating - the what and why of it. I'm wondering what type of action/behaviour do we typically see with one who is value oriented vs operating on situational ethics?

Thanks, Susan.

Avatar for drshoshanna
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 02-11-2004 - 11:11am

The most important suggestion is not to develop deep feelings for someone until you really know who they are. Of course, this is easier said than done - especially online. Communicating online allows many fantasies to develop and we can feel that we have found our "perfect one". Realize that your "deep feelings" are based more on your own fantasy than the reality of who he is. If someone hasn't had a serious relationship in 10 years, obviously there is fear of committment and being close. Also, it is important never to "assume" that someone is being exclusive. Open, clear cut, honest communication is essential at all times. And remember, it always, always takes time to find out who a person is - qualities and actions become revealed in time. Be patient next time around - be careful, keep your eyes open, and keep your fantasies separate from the reality of who the person is.


Best wishes.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 02-11-2004 - 11:16am
Well, having flipped from being an opportunist or using 'situational ethics" to becoming value oriented......I can only tell you from personal experience.

When I was an opportunist (allowing opportunities to dictate my actions based on my needs or wants of the moment) and using situational ethics - every situation was reviewed for my options within it - that I could take to meet my needs, wants, goals, or requirements. That meant I was extremely inconsistent and incongruent with my actions.

For example...if I was short of cash (a permanent reality back then) and a harried cashier gave me an extra $5 - I kept it. Her being short at the end of the night wasn't "my problem"...my problem was I needed all the cash I could get and this was a windfall and since I hadn't "stolen" it outright - it was mine, free and clear.

That 'situational ethic' with opportunity as a venue...pervaded my world. If you offered me something and I wanted or needed it - I took it (nothing wrong with that) but I didn't consider my "obligation" to you (or if one should exist) or the implication of it (If my actions were making an implication of my future actions or commitment). So if I were dating you and needed a car, and you offered it - I took it. I simply had no problem going out with another guy while in it after all - I NEEDED THE CAR, the opportunity you gave me provided me with it, and I had no obligation to you- just to my needs and they were met in situations of opportunity, using situational ethics.

That pervasive dynamic in my world was spawned by a thinking pattern that was dysfunctional (which isn't always the case) and it was based on a victim's attitude about life, with unrealistic expectations of life, and an enlarged sense of entitlement to more than I had via someone else after all that I had been thru.

Now...that dysfunctional thinking pattern led me straight to where it always does.....addiction and mine was to a physical substance. of course, I was addicted to relationships, sex, shopping, eating, etc. etc. etc. before that - and it was all evident and dealt with dysfunctionally as well. I kept trading out addictions - till I got to alcohol. Which had a physically addictive capacity that impaired your ability to function - something eating ot excess and binging doesn't do, per se. And something spending someone else's credit or money won't do is leave you "without" the ability to function. If anything, it gives you options to function in wich to gain more benefit or opportunities elsewhere.

Back against the wall....no matter where I went there I was, no matter what I did it was a disaster and unsuccessful....so, I had to admit that I was the common denominator in my life and i had to change.

I stress for others reading....a huge majority of people "in recovery" for an addiction DO NOT CONSIDER IT NECESSARY TO CHANGE THEIR VALUES, JUST BEHAVIOR.

But, i couldn't change just my behavior...I'd been doing that for 17 years, trading out addictions nad never getting what I wanted or needed fundamentally - I needed to change who I was.

People do what they do because they want to do it. Their values and priorities justify and entitle them to their actions, feelings, thoughts, decisions, words, ideas, and desires. Those same values determine in all situations their character, conscience, integrity and honor.

So, it wasn't enough for me to change my behavior, and remain miserable, and "find another addiction". It was imperative for me to change my values, so that my perception of life and self changed, and that I learn the method of success - rather than thinking it was eluding me because I was never in the right place at the right time, or with the right person.

As a result.....I never had ot work to change my behavior. Immediately I stopped doing what I had been doing, and trying to stop doing for 17 years. I stopped taking the spare change - I still needed cash but THAT wasn't an appropriate way to get it and I wouldn't consider it an option. I started communicating honestly vs. saying nothing, taking the goods and running - or saying nothing and taking nothing and saying nothing about the negative results I knew were inevitable to result to other people.

Very literally, in my case, it was immediate. It wasn't easy - the "needs and wants" did not change immediately. But what I considered "right" to do changed immediately and I required myself to "do the right thing for the right reason" letting different results be a result of my different actions and then "handle it from there" with the new values, priorities, standards, and ethics always in play at all times.

After a year or two....I drove the people OUT of my life that were situationally ethic'd and opportunistically oriented. they couldn't stand the fact that I was so consistent and congruent - at times it benefitted them, at times it didn't...and when it didn't they had no desire to be around me. They couldn't figure out the "system" because they were looking at each situation as if it were a vacuum - and so it was just easier to get away from me than it was to "hang around and benefit occasionally but without a guarantee".

Everybody that conducted themselves opportunistically I disassociated with immediately that I could. But my situation didn't allow me to leave the marriage, or disassociate from my birth family immediately - eventually yes, that happened in full on all counts. So those people were subjected to a value oriented set of behavior that was "unpredictable and unacceptable" to them...it allowed me to learn to respect, admire, trust, and accept myself as a solid person of worth...and that stopped me from being their whipping post, scapegoat, provider, and benefactor because that was their only real use for me.

So, this is one of the many instances whre "time will tell". In the beginning - everybody wants to impress and please the people they're with (romantically or platonically) and most situations and circumstances are choregraphed and geared to do that. However, as you spend more time, tehre are circumstances they don't stage or control and you'll get to see their actions, decisions and words within those myriad of situations.

If consistently they conduct themselves by a set of values and standards, principles and priorities and ethics - you'll be aware of it. And even when you disagree with the reasoning they use that allows them to reach that conclusion and thus take that action - you'll respect and trust the fact that their value orientation allowed it - not some situational ethic based on opportunity to benefit. What people do for you - they'll do to you. and nobody will do for you - what they don't do for themselves.

Infatuation is a time where "feelings" are tinting positively this person...and you're not in discerning and objective awareness of the entirety of the situation at all times. You're enjoying the giddy high of infatuation - and you should. But it's just as imperative not to take action or make commitment during that period - because you're lacking in objectivity and awareness and discernment and you're not sure precisely who you're dealing with. Not becuase they're not being who they are - it's just that you're not in a complete position to judge for yourself if it meets your long-term needs and standards vs. the "your needs and desires of the moment".

One thing that is available to you in terms of awareness early in any sort of liason that'll give you a great indication of this person's orientation (value or situational) is the "state of their life."

Success is NOT found in a situation, position, possession, status, or relationship. People that are aware of that, that have taken the time and effort to define happiness, success and security for themselves in concrete terms so that those emotional status quos exist (pervading emotional status quos vs. a temporary emotional state based on a situation) for themselves by their own efforts, definitions, means, and standards...there is a serenity, a flow, a very noted awareness of "success" in thier lives overall. These people aren't emotionally driven. They're emotionally aware, while goal oriented and factually assessing - that's the method of success in any venue. They haven't got alot of choas, unrest, dysfunction.....and yet they're not so anal, scheduled, rigid and unbending that they can't "go with the flow".

These people, best example I've got - have learned that life is a river and they do not have to control the river, because they can and do and are all times willing and able to control the boat that they're paddling (their life) while on the river of life as a whole.

They're not afraid of what is around the corner - it's not a threat. And they're not thrilled by the potential of what is around the corner as an "opportunity to benefit or succeed"- they're enjoying the journey, very aware that the journey is all there is really, and that success, security and happiness is within them at all times, no matter what the situation (threat or opportunity) is at hand at the moment.

I knew I had reached a total value orientation level...when today people that hear of my life just five years ago, and the state of it, they hear about the 17 years from 17 to 35 and are amazed (not appalled as they once were when I continue in the chaos, mass destruction, and terror)....the serene, secure, successful, self-aware, value oriented, goal focused, factually assessing, emotionally stable woman they meet now does NOT appear to be capable, able or willing to engage in such chaos, destruction, terror, or dysfunction.

the people I used to attract - I don't anymore attract that type. And the type I was attracted to - I'm not anymore, thank God. That's a value orientation change...it's total, it's complete, it's life-changing, and for me, it was a necessity.

That said.....what was said by someone I never actually met but overheard is a truism that rings thru my life today......this person watched me for several years every day portage a small dam with my kayak. Initially hesitant and unsure and fearful, he tried to initiate conversation to distract me, to disconcert me, to amuse me, to get my attention and perhaps eliminate my focus on my goal - to get that kayak down that river. Over time, more aggression, more confidence, more focused, more pursuant of more than just "getting that kayak down the river" - had me running on the portage and never looking back. I heard him say once to someone sitting there with him 4 years later, that thought perhaps i would stop and talk...."don't bother, she plays harder than we work, and you want no part of that."

I didn't know I was seeking that status...but I'm sure glad I got it. People that don't live by values, standards, principles and ethics, people who do not appreciate the value and reward of hard work, goal focus, factual assessment....want NOTHING to do with me. Thank goodness, becuase I really haven't got time for unfocus, emotional drivel!

http://www.hullspeed.net/journal/feature_story_v2_i3.html

I'm happy to help if you have more questions.

Erin

quickblade14@hotmail.com



iVillage Member
Registered: 07-03-2003
Thu, 02-12-2004 - 11:41am
Thank you so much for responding. I must admit that I have this image of "what it should be like" in a relationship. My friends say that I wear my heart on my sleeve. I tend to agree. I think a lot of it is...I get tired of going through the motions of dating.....and the idea of "one relationship" in my life is so appealing. Perhaps I need to take time out for me. To not look for that someone...just to believe that he will find me.

The other evening I called "the guy"....I needed to know if he would mention anything. He did not...all he really said was that he has had very little sleep the last couple nights. After talking to him...I felt nothing..perhaps only a twinge of sadness. He called me again last night and I did not even want to talk to him. It is almost like now...everything he is telling me I take with a grain of salt. Any trust that I had in him...gone. So that tells me...it is pretty much done. I think I am going to try and focus all of my attention on my career for the next few years. I do anticipate that there will be loneliness, but I somehow I think I would rather deal with my loneliness than heartache or even game playing.

Thank you to everyone for your advice...I do greatly appreciate. I am so glad I stumbled into this site. I love it!

Jennifer

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-22-2003
Thu, 02-12-2004 - 12:12pm
The first lie was a red flag. Also, it is a mistake (as you found out...) to assume that your guy is being monogamous just because you are. It seems that this guy is still not interested in a serious relationship, and if this is what you are looking for let him go, and don't waste time in pining for him. Just go back on the personals and find someone else. And when you do... be open about being monogamous or not. And at the first sign of a lie, speak up. You are better off running away before you grow deeper feelings...

BTW, I met my current BF on the personals. We are lving together and are very happy. Not everyone on the personals is a player!!