Car decisions

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Car decisions
10
Wed, 09-28-2005 - 4:31pm

We are in the process of building a biodiesel processor, and are looking at options for purchasing a diesel vehicle. I would love ya'll's input on this decision.

Here are the choices we've narrowed it down to:

A new VW Jetta TDI Wagon (used are nearly impossible to find in diesel): $21k; 40+ mpg
A 1980s Mercedes wagon (not available newer than 1987): $6-$8k; 30+ mpg

Advantages of the first option are that we wouldn't have to shop around--we could just order what we want as soon as we sell my current vehicle. And of course it would come with a warranty, and other perks of a new vehicle. Also, the fuel economy is better. Our car payment would be about the same as our current payment for our 2001 Outback, but obviously it would be for longer (60 months instead of the year and a half left on our Outback).

The second option is harder to come by, and might mean driving a ways and waiting a while for the right vehicle (in the meantime, spending gazillions at the pump each time we gas up). It also comes with the dangers of a used vehicle. On the other hand, at $6-8k, we would only have to borrow about $2k, and by applying our current car payment to that and then to our other debts, we would be out of debt 6 months earlier, with no car payment. But, while the gas mileage is great, it's not as great as that of the Jetta wagon. On the other hand, it's a larger car with more cargo space.

What would you do?

Thanks!

Heather

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Wed, 09-28-2005 - 5:12pm

I don't know a thing about biodiesel. We bought a new Jetta wagon in 2003 (not diesel) and have been very happy with it. We've had tons of problems with cars in general so we do tend to buy newer cars but it sounds like you and your DH are better with cars than we are (i.e. if you could figure out the biodiesel conversion stuff that's handier than we are).

Taleyna

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Wed, 09-28-2005 - 6:07pm

Thanks for the feedback on the Jetta! It's good to hear from happy owners. I was looking at the cargo space, and it's actually not that much less than with the Mercedes--the space differences really come in the passenger portion, which I'm frankly not as worried about.

On the other hand, I was calculating savings for gas mileage, and it would take about 50 years to make up the difference in price of the vehicle through gas savings! LOL So, that part's kind of a no-brainer...

We're actually not all that handy with vehicles. But in general we are trying to learn to become more self-sufficient and to lay a lighter footprint on the earth (i.e., be more ecologically responsible), so we've taught ourselves a lot of things. The vehicle itself actually does not require modification--you can run any diesel engine on biodiesel. But the vegetable oil must be processed first, and that's what we're working on building a processor for. We've run one test batch (with a blender and miscellaneous kitchen implements) successfully, so we know we can do it. We just need to build the equipment for larger batches.

Some people run vehicles on straight vegetable oil, with very little or no processing before putting it in the car. In that case, it does require modification to the vehicle. But for us it just isn't the better option.

Anyway, I would like to have fewer car problems. I hate down time and expense from repairs. But I'm starting to think that the Mercedes may be the better choice for us financially anyway.

We'll see. I really appreciate hearing what your experience has been, though. Thank you!!

Heather

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-19-2003
Thu, 09-29-2005 - 10:15am

Hey Heather,

I have considered trading my car for a Jetta. But I think I would have a huge problem with using Bio Diesel on a brand new car, and I would almost put money on it that Volkswagon has some stipulation that if you are not using actual Diesel fuel that the engine & components would not be covered under warranty.

Just my thoughts,

BTW - I am sure their are other cars out their that have diesel engines. Do you like your car well enough to swap it over with a diesel engine?

Shannon


Pregnancy%20ticker
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Thu, 09-29-2005 - 12:14pm

Hi Shannon,

Thanks for the thoughts. The topic of biodiesel is complicated and confusing, so I can see how at first glance a person would worry about using it in a new vehicle.

It is true that some, if not most or all, manufacturers will void the warranty on the parts of your vehicle affected if you make modifications to your vehicle in order to run *straight* vegetable oil. But straight vegetable oil is not the same thing as biodiesel. In fact, biodiesel is the "original" diesel--when the diesel engine was designed, it was designed explicitly to run on processed vegetable oil, aka biodiesel. It was only later that it was discovered that petroleum could be used for the purpose.

Biodiesel can be run in any diesel engine without modifications and is cleaner burning and cleaner running, and better for the engine than petroleum-based diesel. When a car that has been run on petro diesel begins to run on biodiesel, the owner must conscientiously change the oil filter several times in the first few months, because the bio so effectively cleans out deposits that have been left by the petro over the years. Many parts of the country sell biodiesel at the pump (there are even a few such pumps near here, but it is quite a bit more expensive than making it myself and somewhat more expensive even than petro diesel), and many municipal fleets run strictly on biodiesel. It is well studied and well documented, and it is in fact "actual" diesel. Warranties are not affected by its use.

And, yes, there are other cars out there with diesel engines. Believe me, I've studied it, lol. My vehicle--a Subaru Outback--is not and never has been available in the U.S. with a diesel engine. Most family-style, non-SUV vehicles in the U.S. do not come with a diesel option, and wagons with a diesel option are even rarer. For my particular needs and purposes, the two makes and models and years I listed are the only things I've found that will do. There is a large home-brewed biodiesel community out there and I have had lots of help. There are even comprehensive lists of the makes, models, and years of all diesel vehicles available in the U.S.

Thanks for the questions, they certainly are important ones to have answers for.

Heather

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-16-2004
Thu, 09-29-2005 - 4:06pm

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this but there is a car dealership called carfax (they are all over the place).

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Thu, 09-29-2005 - 5:05pm

Hi Nicola,

Thanks for the tip. Yeah, I've looked at Carmax, but as far as I can tell, they don't even carry diesel passenger cars. I think I saw *one* Jetta TDI, but it was a sedan, not the wagon. Unfortunately, diesel passenger cars are just really difficult to find in the U.S., especially late models. And while there are *some* used Jetta TDI's on the market, it has only been available for a few years and most people who invest in a diesel (which usually has to be special-ordered, since most dealerships won't keep them in stock, since they're not in high demand) keep it for at least a few years. So there just aren't that many on the market.

There are LOTS of Mercedes diesels on the used market, even up through the late 1990s models, but the wagon was made in diesel only until 1987, sadly. I do a lot of yard saling and salvaging (rescuing lumber out of construction dumpsters--with permission--collecting mulch materials from the curb, and so on, and now collecting used vegetable oil in large containers), as well as gardening (hauling plants and bags of manure and so on), so a wagon is really a must. I also have to be able to haul my kids. An SUV, crew cab pickup, or mini van would work, but I'm not willing to sacrifice fuel economy, since the point is to reduce my fuel costs and live lighter on the earth.

So, it really does come down to those two very limited choices, with a couple other minor players that are unlikely to happen because they're even rarer (like a 1990's passat wagon) or more expensive (like a new or barely-used passat wagon) or both (like an imported and converted to U.S.-specs, late-model Mercedes diesel wagon).

And, unfortunately, that does seem to rule out Carmax. I might just call them, though, and see if they keep a "wanted" list for people looking for unusual vehicles--that way if a Jetta wagon TDI does show up, they could call me.

On the other hand, I really am leaning toward the older Mercedes. The financial difference is huge, and, as you point out, if we decide this just really isn't for us, we won't have invested as much in it.

Thanks for the feedback.

Blessings,

Heather

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-21-2003
Fri, 09-30-2005 - 9:43am

Hi Heather,

I personally would take the Mercedes. Here's why:
- Mercedes cars, especially the diesel variety, seem to run on almost anything. Bio-diesel included.
- Newer cars are stuffed to the brim with electronics etc. you better not try to repair yourself. I'd prefer a used car from 1987 any day over a brand new one which needs a garage every time the water pump start to hickup...
- If you produce the biodiesel yourself, mileage is not as much an issue as would be if you didn't. The mileage you get from a brand new car should be greater, but then it is almost impossible to find a new car without ac, route planners and other stuff which I, personally, consider definitely not necessary and therefore only adding to the price and in case of the air condition unit also have a tendency to guzzle fule... thus driving downthe mileage and getting it into comparable ranges with used cars.

There's just one thing IMO that speaks for the new car: Better safety measures. The used 1987 mercedes probably will have only one airbag and none of the other nice gadets cars nowadays do have. On theother hand: Mercedes cars are known to come out on top in any kind of accidents (except when a truckis involved), and their passenger safety concept always was and still is a few years ahead of everyone else's. So the difference might not be a huge as with other products.

Before you ask: Nope, I don't worek for Mercedes *grins* I just love their cars, since they are great to drive and the old ones were easily servicable for any do-it-yourself-leaning person :-)

Greetings, Jordis

ivy_jordis

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Fri, 09-30-2005 - 3:45pm

These are great points, Jordis, thank you! Mercedes diesels do have a fabulous reputation for running forever--500k is not unusual, and I've heard of upwards of a million miles.

And, I'm in total agreement on the electronic gadgets et al in modern cars--don't need 'em, don't want 'em. So, that's an excellent point, and one I hadn't thought of. Although parts are expensive on the Mercedes, it's mostly work we could do ourselves, and VW parts are expensive too--and modern cars can't be worked on at home!

It's hard to resist the pull of the new-car shine and shimmer, but that would last about a week with as hard as we are on cars anyway.

The only other point in favor of the Jetta is that it comes in a manual transmission, which I much, much, much prefer. The mercedes does not--at least, if it ever did, it is so unusual that I have *never* seen the station wagon for sale in a manual transmission.

But the other points seem to far outweigh that one down side. And as for the mileage--I did the calculations, and it turns out that I'd have to drive the car for about 60 years in order to make up in fuel economy the difference in cost of the vehicle, lol.

Other benefits of the Mercedes are the larger size and the sunroof that seems to be pretty much universal, but is an expensive option on the Jetta (and therefore not one we would opt for). Sometimes the Mercedes station wagon comes with a third row seat, though I'm not sure on the safety issues of that, since it faces backwards... anyone know?

And, I know that modern cars are supposedly safer than older cars, but somehow I'll bet the 1987 Mercedes is still safer than your average late-model Ford or Nissan. I'm not a huge fan of air bags anyway. One other thing, though, is that the Jetta has a LATCH system, which is really handy and very safe for infant seats--it secures them without a seatbelt. We have it in our current vehicle and love it, but our youngest will be out of the infant/toddler seat in about a year and a half anyway, and it's more a matter of convenience than safety really.

Anyway, thank you again for bringing all these points to my attention.

Blessings,

Heather

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Fri, 09-30-2005 - 5:57pm

O.K. I'm the Jetta person and I do love it but I would point out that the backseat is not ideal for the carseat thing. It's a bit compact so Ian's feet are in the back of the passenger seat if I have it pushed back comfortably and it was horrible for the first 15 months when he was rear-facing. I had to keep the seat rigidly upright in order for his to be in correctly. Everyone that rode in that passenger seat griped. For some reason, I wasn't thinking you had the carseat issue or I would have mentioned it earlier.

Taleyna

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Fri, 09-30-2005 - 7:08pm

Ah, thank you. I hadn't considered that end of things--it looks like the Jetta sacrifices passenger space in preference for cargo space, which is kind of a good thing, but I hadn't thought of how it would affect the car seats. It's hard enough for the kids not to kick the backs of the seats in the Outback. Sounds like the Jetta would amplify the problem.

Thanks so much!

Heather