Hot Button Question

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-25-2009
Hot Button Question
23
Sat, 06-06-2009 - 5:01pm

Someone mentioned that this board has been rather quiet lately, I think this may stir people up a bit.

My question is, how many children are too many, especially for people on a tight budget? Several months ago there was a discussion here about the octuplet mom, and most people considered it a very irresponsible thing, both financially (tax payer's money going to support her and the babies) and as a parent (how can she take care of eight in addition to the six as a single mom, and the example she sets for them).

And there are the more normal people, with several children, struggling to make ends meet. I would like to say is it none of my business how many children other people have, but every time someone defaults on a credit card, for example, the bank will need to make up for the loss and raise rates and fees on everyone. A foreclosed house in the neighborhood affects everyone on the same street. I am not saying children are the cause of all financial woes, but certainly they cost money in absolute terms, and often one parent decides not to work to take care of them.

Nor am I trying to say only well to do people should have children, but I cannot help but shake my head when people at work complained about not having the money for this and that when they have four or five or six. I am also tired of baby shower invitations when they expect me contribute a significant amount. (Quit going to those a long time ago). Having said that, even though I choose to be childless (and if I were to have any, most likely I will send him/her to private schools), I believe certain things, like property tax to support schools and money to fund community program for children, are part of living in a society and never begrudge those things.

So what do you think? Do you think it is a person's right to have as many children as he/she wants regardless of the financial situation? Do you believe one should carefully look at the budget before deciding to have children? Or somewhere in between? And how many is too many?

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iVillage Member
Registered: 11-14-2008
Sat, 06-06-2009 - 6:24pm

***So what do you think? Do you think it is a person's right to have as many children as he/she wants regardless of the financial situation? Do you believe one should carefully look at the budget before deciding to have children? Or somewhere in between? And how many is too many?***

Oh you are right this is a hot button question! LOL!

This is how I view it. I had two kids because after that, my husband at the time, were physically out numbered! I don't believe you can afford to give your children what you want them to have if you don't set a number before hand and do some math.

Lots of people say there is no "good" time to have a baby, but not being able to make ends meet with out children is definitely not a great time. That just adds too much stress to the relationship and pocket book.

I do think 8 plus 6 at home is to many for a single person. Octo mom is gross and has no thought for anyone but herself. I have two kids and can barely give them all attention they need and deserve, not even taking money into account!!
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Avatar for sohappilyme
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 06-06-2009 - 6:35pm

I have five kids, and DH and I planned every last one of them and had them on purpose. We also homeschool. We have never used food stamps or government assistance to feed, house, or clothe them. Yet, obviously I'm on the debt support group so money is an issue for us. There, that's my disclaimer, LOL.

I do believe there is a line as to how many kids you *should* have, but I couldn't begin to tell you where it should be drawn. Octomom, yeah, that was over the line. If what I hear is true and she was already on govt assistance, then I don't understand having more children when she couldn't support what she had - particularly when it required an expensive medical procedure to start with.

Yet, you can have one kid and not be able to support it. Job loss, medical conditions, accidents ... you name it, and it can happen and raise all kids of heck with your plans.

I do believe that children are a gift from God, but at the same time when we had our fifth one I had a tubal ligation, just as we'd always planned. I suppose that makes me a hypocrite, but I know we couldn't reasonably support more even if I'd love to have them.

I believe a big part of the problem is what folks thing is "required" to live. Milk, clean water, a good roof, absolutely. But when folks on welfare are sitting at home with $100s of dollars worth of electronics and no coats for their kids, then I think a spoiled society has a lot to do with what's wrong out there.

If I mention being short on cash, the first thing that happens is an all out attack from other folks b/c we have so many kids. Well, I know people without kids who are short on cash. To me, the line is the reasonable expectation that we can take care of them, and I don't think there's much more you can ask of a person than that. If things go okay - not perfectly, but okay - then we'll be able to put them all through college if they want to go. We'll even be able to help them get into their first homes. They'll all have cars b/c DH is going to take them when they hit 14 or so to find a junk or wrecked one and they're going to have to rebuild it from the inside out (on the theory that if they put that much time, heart, and soul into the car they will know how to fix it and be a lot less likely to do something stupid to wreck it). They have all the love they could ask for and parents who spend several hours a day with them (homeschoolers). I believe we've done everything we can to be reasonably sure that we can take care of them, but that could all change tomorrow. It's at that point where I go back to the fact that they're gifts from God and I'd never call that a mistake, no matter what happens.

I have family members, however, who had plenty of kids without a prayer in the world of affording them. In fact, they didn't care b/c they knew there would be govt money involved. Again, I don't know where that line is, but sometimes it seems terribly clear that someone has crossed it. Planning ahead to let the govt foot the bill might be a pretty clear indicator.

Sarah


Sarah
iVillage Member
Registered: 12-10-2003
Sat, 06-06-2009 - 6:54pm
I am on a tight budget now but that wasn't always the case. Life throws curve balls sometimes and even the best made plans don't always work out the way one assumes they will. Yes, children can add expenses but they do not necessarily cause financial issues for their families. Families without children can run into the same financial difficulties. Personally I have 4 children and I would have a major problem with someone telling me that I shouldn't have had that many children because I have debt. Is the number of children I have in any way a cause of the debt? No. My debt is a combination of student loans for DH and I, as well as a home equity loan and credit cards that were used for problems with our house (foundation collapsing)and car repairs along with some other things. The majority of this debt was acquired within the last 3 years. DH and I never expected these things and didn't have a real budget to follow until recently. We also didn't have an emergency fund or any type of savings for that matter. For any family with or without kids, you need a workable budget, an emergency fund, and a knowledge of what is a need and what is a want. As a mom of 4 children (ages 13, 9, 5, and 4) I give my kids what they need and allow for some of their wants within reason. Some parents try to overindulge their kids and maybe even sign them up for too many activities but that doesn't mean that all families with multiple children spend and arm and a leg to raise their kids. For example, I have an $80 budget each week for food to feed 6 people and manage to feed everyone on that amount....it is all about needs versus wants - fruits and veggies are a need but fruit roll-ups and sugary kid cereal is a want. It can be done. For what it is worth, I have seen families with multiple children struggle financially as well as single people and couples without children with the same struggles. Financial problems can come or go...jobs can be lost, medical problems occur, natural disasters strike, etc regardless of who you are and how many children you do or don't have. Like I pointed out, my financial issues started occuring within the last 3 years - my youngest child is 4 - so a person's financial situation at the time they are deciding to have a child can be quite different from their financial situation as their child gets older and it is impossible to always predict how it will go...no one ever plans to have financial difficulties.
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-16-2007
Sat, 06-06-2009 - 7:20pm
I have a problem with people having more kids just so they can get assistance! I have no problem with people that desperately need the assistance if they work and are trying to make it on their own. I do however have a problem with people who take advantage of the system (welfare, food stamps) and do nothing to help themselves. I was just at the market tonight and as I am skimping on every little thing, a young man in the line next to me is paying for his groceries with food stamps and then I see him going into the parking lot lighting up a cigarette and walking into the liquor store, I'm pretty sure food stamps dont cover cigarettes and booze, so how did he get those if he needs assistance.
My husband and I decided before we had our daughter that she would be the only one. Mostly because we want to give her the best that we can. Right now my husband and I both work full-time and I am very lucky to have my sister in law watch my daughter. We do pay her each week, but it's not anything what we would pay for her to go to a daycare. And even with that, it still cuts it close some weeks.
I don't think people should be told how many children they should have, but I definately think the government should be a little tougher on the guidelines for certain programs.
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iVillage Member
Registered: 11-17-2007
Sat, 06-06-2009 - 9:27pm

Kids don't make debt grown-up do. Its the dad that wants the new car/truck.

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-25-2009
Sat, 06-06-2009 - 9:52pm

Umm, perhaps I was not clear in my question. I was trying to see what people think how many kids is too many, and their reasons. The question was addressed to parents, not kids. And if you read carefully, I did say I am not blaming all the financial woes on having kids.

According to the Department of Agriculture, not Marie, it costs approximately $250,000 to raise a kid. Now I am not saying everyone spends that much, some more, some less, but you cannot deny that kids do cost money.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CollegeandFamily/Raisekids/P37245.asp

And for the record, my mother worked all her life and I would not have it otherwise. Warm bed be damned, music lessons, trips overseas, foreign language tutoring, having my undergraduate degree paid for, and all that did me more good for my career. Talk about delayed gratification! They also had the house all paid up and retired at 55. Most important of all, she showed me how a woman CAN have everything which I am always grateful for.

It seems like some posters stay home, some work, and each family has its own way to cope and a story to tell. I find that both informative and fascinating.

By the way, you appear to imply that there are a lot of dumb parents. So does mean these people should not have kids since they "make a mess"?

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-17-2007
Sun, 06-07-2009 - 12:03am

No I totally understood what you wrote. HAVING PROBLEMS WITH THE COMPUTER SO HAVE TO DO THIS IN CAPS TONIGHT TO SHOW MY WORDS DIFFERENT FROM YOURS.

"Do you think it is a person's right to have as many children as he/she wants regardless of the financial situation?" YES "Do you believe one should carefully look at the budget before deciding to have children?" YOU CAN LOOK AT A BUDGET FOREVER. BUT IN THE END I THINK IT IS UP TO GOD REALLY HOW MANY KIDS HE WANTS YOU TO HAVE. "And how many is too many?" AS LONG AS THE KIDS ARE FED AND CLEAN THEN THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS. ALSO LIVES IN A CLEAN HOUSE.

FINANCES CHANGE WHAT YOU ARE BRING HOME WHEN YOU ARE EXPECTING MAY NOT BE THE SAME AS WHEN A CHILD IS 5 OR SO. AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE NOT THAT IMPORTANT IN MY EYES.

AND I WILL STAND BY WHAT I SAID IT IS THE PARENTS THAT MAKE THE MESS AND IT IS THE KIDS THAT ARE HURT BY IT NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Having kids never caused someone being late on a payment that is totally bad management.

NEVER HEARD OF A 5 YEAR OLD CAUSING A BANKRUPTCY OR A FAMILY LOSING THEIR HOME. IT IS THE PARENTS. AND I NEVER COUNTED UP WHAT MICHAEL COST TO FEED OR PUT CLOTHES ON HIS BACK BUT IT NEVER COST 15,500.00 A YEAR. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN OVER HALF OF WHAT RAYMOND MADE A YEAR.

"shake my head when people at work complained about not having the money for this and that when they have four or five or six. " WHY ARE THEY COMPLAINING. Poor me I really want a new car this year but I can't afford it. Or I really want some new living room furniture. I would bet it has nothing to do with spending money on the kids. But I bet if you think about it. what ever they are complaining about has to do with them personally. Kids have nothing to do with that either.

My mother never worked until after my father died when I was 12 and I wish she never had to. She didn't want to work She was forced into it and I sure didn't want her too. And I never worked except for a couple of years before Michael was born. I personally don't see why you seem it is so important to bring up the fact that your mother worked all the time. Do you really think she was a better mother because she worked then my mother was because she stayed at home with me.

Children are always a blessing from God. One or a dozen. And it will always be God that decides how many a family will have.

MARY ANN

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-20-2004
Sun, 06-07-2009 - 7:44am

Finances are only one factor to be considered when deciding family size, and for some people, one child can be too much. How much of yourself you are willing to GIVE is a better indicator of how many kids you should have....the willingness and ability to do whatever it takes to do what is best for the kids.

I think that is what got people shook up about Nadya Suleman....she was not adequately taking care of her 6 kids emotionally or financially, and then she CHOSE to put all of the babies she was carrying in danger simply by choosing to have so many. Not to mention there is no father around, and she is already stretched for time. A few of her older kids have special needs.

Mary Ann...I have to say I slightly disagree with you: Having children can throw a family into financial turmoil. Maybe not "normal" planned-for children, but throw one or two into the mix with special needs, and it can turn the family budget upside down. I read yesterday that 60% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills...well, in some families those medical bills come from the kids! Not to mention loss of income potential in these kinds of situations.

Financial situations can change. I know someone who went from making $150,000/yr to $40,000/yr because of the economy....lost her high-paying job. This was a major blow to her family. But hey, the kids are already here...what do you do??

I don't think there is a magic number, to answer your question. Any family's financial situation can change with an illness or job loss....or go up through education and being a go-getter with a little bit of luck thrown in. But the key is that the parents have to be grown up enough to put the NEEDS of the kids first....no matter how many kids we are talking about here.

Heather

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-25-2009
Sun, 06-07-2009 - 11:48am

"Children are always a blessing from God. One or a dozen. And it will always be God that decides how many a family will have".

MARY ANN

Wow! Very eye-opening. When someone drags God into a discussion, it becomes pointless to continue.

You are the one who proclaimed all kids wanted is for their mother to say home. I disagree. This is not the parenting board, but about debt, and the fact that my mother did not have a dozen kids allowed her to work. And it allowed her to retire debt-free, and even with bumps on the road (a few years ago they had to spend a very large sum on medical bills and their finance is still solid). I never made any comments about your mother. I am be very proud of mine and grateful for her decisions, and what she and my father provided me with. Whatever my parents did, they must have gotten something right because they now live a modest but comfortable life and do not worry about bills. I do tend to emphasize on the financial aspect of things, simply because of the nature of this board. There is little sense to tout about how they gave me an appreciation of art and music, good things, but beside the point.

As to private schools, my SO is from Switzerland, and if we were to have a child, we would like to send him/her to an international school so he/she can have a trilingual education. We could do conversational French and German at home, but my German is rather bad. I do not consider it an elitist notion for a child to learn the father's native languages.

The more logical answers from people who are open to share their experience are very interesting, and thanks to those who responded.

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”
- Galileo Galilei -

edited for typing errors




Edited 6/7/2009 1:33 pm ET by marie_1229
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-25-2009
Sun, 06-07-2009 - 12:12pm

I agree, Heather. I read that article, too. You hit the question right on the nail: how much of yourself you are willing to give? And obviously there are limits as you cannot give what you do not have. There are also those who decide they would rather give all they have to one child (or fewer children) so that each can have more.

And Sarah brought out concrete examples how she manages the financial, education, and all the other needs of her larger family while some of the people she knows have the same number of children and are totally irresponsible. (By the way, kudos to you, Sarah, I don't know how you do it)! I believe each family does it slightly differently but the key point is some planning (apart from financial) needs to be involved. But the plan should not involved government subsidy! ;-)




Edited 6/7/2009 12:22 pm ET by marie_1229

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