An outsider

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-20-2007
An outsider
71
Mon, 02-15-2010 - 10:15pm

I tend to learn things that i think are totally normal are taboo simply by reading these boards. I think im pretty "normal". I am 33 weeks (nearly) pregnant with my second child, my first boy. When i was pregnant with my daughter i learned from these boards that i had broken rules by eating feta, drinking caffeine, eating tuna etc. My daughter turned out fine so i'm pretty much doing all those things again. After my daughter was born, i found out that there was a taboo about vaccinations. I just assumed you have a kid you vaccinate it. I'm always surprised to find there are debates on issues i thought were cut and dried.

I have no strong feelings regarding circumcision really simply because i didnt know that it was something to feel strongly about. Religiously its something that is just done. My husband is circumcised, as are all the men i know. I didnt really read through many of the posts because they've gotten long or off topic. Why wouldnt you circumcise your child? I dont know anyone who's harmed by it... and like i said its a religious custom. I suppose I'm confused? without getting totally hyped up, can someone explain to me what im missing?

Mrs Maggie and Micah's Mommie


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iVillage Member
Registered: 04-27-2009
In reply to: mrsruvi
Mon, 02-15-2010 - 11:31pm

Hi, Maggie, and welcome to the Board, and congratulations on your upcoming second child!

Yep, as you can see, there are a lot of things that we all take for granted at some point without questioning and which, when given a second thought, give us back one of those shock moments of "OMG, what was I thinking?". For many people in the USA, male circumcision is one of them.

As you read through the material (and yes, some may be off-topic but, believe me, most are highly informative), you may see circumcision from different angles. It is up to the reader to discover them, though.

Only one comment about your post. You mention that "Religiously its something that is just done".

-YES if you are Jewish, and even then some Jews are questioning the requirement as well;

- NO if you are Christian. Only in the USA you will find some Christians believing that circumcision is as much as a religious requirement as it is in Judaism. The fact that the USA is the only country in which more boys are circumcised than not may contribute to that misconception. Christians all over the world do not circumcise and look at circumcision as just a Jewish rite.

Regards,
Federico.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-16-2008
In reply to: mrsruvi
Mon, 02-15-2010 - 11:41pm

Welcome to the debate first and foremost.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 07-02-2009
In reply to: mrsruvi
Mon, 02-15-2010 - 11:43pm

Maggie... and of course you love your husband (your siggy)!


I am five hours ahead of even East coast America... and it's way past my bedtime as a write. But I want to welcome you to the board!


CL - Circumcision Debate


"Education is the discovery of our own ignorance.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-20-2007
In reply to: mrsruvi
Tue, 02-16-2010 - 12:03am

hello!
first, sorry i'm Katie. Maggie is my daughter. I'm Mrs. Maggie and Micah's mommie. =) although technically im currently micah's "host".

Its odd that two of you mentioned that Christians have no requirement to circumcise. Yes, Romans talks about baptism replacing circumcision but that are many religious faiths, mine included, which do not dispose of Jewish custom simply because of a Messiah. Some celebrate passover and Christmas as incredibly sacred holidays. Its interesting that two of three responses seem to rule that out completely in Christians. Jesus did not come to abolish the law and the profits but to complete them. Jesus doesn't say "no more circumcisions", Paul does. Paul is not my God.

I'd say that, no i would not perform elective surgery on my child in any other circumstance i just question if this is the same as a nose job. Its a religious symbol of being set apart. Also something about it being cleaner. i dont really know, i never had a penis... that i'm aware of. although now i sort of wonder if i did! (just kidding)

Dont you think you could google "botched pedicures" and find just as many gross things? should we stop them altogether? does cutting my childs hair make me a mutilator? what if my child was born with a growth on her face? where do you draw the line at what is and is not mutilation?

We/I/You if you went to my church, were taught that the reason you circumcise on day 8 has to do with the body's ability to recover from the circumcision and blood to clot etc that it was a day divinely chosen. My ped. is of the same faith, he circumcises out of the hospital on day 8 as long as your child is healthy.

Other than "its creepy to cut off skin" why wouldnt you?

Mrs Maggie and Micah's Mommie


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iVillage Member
Registered: 07-02-2009
In reply to: mrsruvi
Tue, 02-16-2010 - 12:14am

Please let Katie take one step at a time.... I'm sure you understand. It's this immediate and emphatic response, though kindly meant, that causes a visitor to leave us.


Katie, if I'm wrong, just tell me. All we want is for you to talk about your feelings and convictions - and take the comments we all make as a harmless but important part of our circumcision debate, knowing that those who circumcise their sons do so in love for them, no less than those who leave them intact.


Christopher


ETA that you, Katie, proved me wrong! You have responded with intelligent and reasoned argument. I welcome you again! :)




"Education is the discovery of our own ignorance." Will Durant


"Almost any manmade phenomenon is explained by tradition, inertia - or both." Anon




Edited 2/16/2010 12:16 am ET by cl-islaywhisky


Edited 2/16/2010 12:27 am ET by cl-islaywhisky

CL - Circumcision Debate


"Education is the discovery of our own ignorance.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-20-2007
In reply to: mrsruvi
Tue, 02-16-2010 - 12:38am

=)

I'm not emphatic one way or another. Like i said it never occurred to me that someone would be. Religiously, i find it disrespectful to throw off a thousands of years old custom simply because it goes in and out of vogue or because someone in Europe does it.

I do not see it as the same as female genital mutilation as that leaves women generally with no vaginal sensation and sews women closed generally to the a size at which it becomes painful to urinate. My husband has never complained of painful urination before due to his circumcision. He seems to have no sensitivity problems. By and large i'd say the negatives you read when you are looking for them are the exception, not the rule. Just like (like i said before) "botched pedicures" you can see some HORRIBLE things if you look. People remove cuticles all the time without being considered mutilators. Webbed toes are frequently corrected. Extra toes/fingers are often removed in small children or babies.

It seems now a days a lot of people are looking for something to be against. It was good enough for my grandparents, my husband grand parents my parents etc. why isnt it good enough for me? largely, its a harmless proceedure. Is there some statistic im missing that says 1/5 will be left penis-less or scarred for life? or even 1/30? or 1/100? what are the odds that make it so bad?

This is in addition to the fact that i will likely always (in my head) go back to "God commanded it." Not that i expect people who are not of my faith to care about that. it would render the whole thing useless if you did.

Mrs Maggie and Micah's Mommie


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iVillage Member
Registered: 07-16-2008
In reply to: mrsruvi
Tue, 02-16-2010 - 12:51am

If you don't mine sharing, I'm curious which sect you practice. Honest curiosity, nothing more. I'm plain old non-denominational Christian, SO is Catholic. :-) My mom is Jewish so I totally can get it.

It may very well be a religious ceremony to you, but for many of us it isn't at all, it's merely changing my son for no reason other than I technically could. As for calling anyone mutators (or hair cutting as mutilation?) none of us said any such thing. I know I compared it to cosmetic and/or preventative surgery, and asked if you would do anything else to your newborn. Please don't delve into mutilation, that just ramps up the language of the debate and none of us want anything but a calm and civil debate. I will say simply that hair grows back, a foreskin does not. A pedicure would not be done on a newborn when they're at their most vulnerable (even 8 days old is too young to have any medical history to know of underlying conditions) and a pedicure is not performed as a medical or religious procedure. Standard disclaimer of ingrown nails and going to a podiatrist for serious issues

Forgive my typos and lack of copy/paste, I'm not on my computer and I'm not very tech savvy via phone. ;-)

My Caterina is a Catie. :-)

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iVillage Member
Registered: 07-16-2008
In reply to: mrsruvi
Tue, 02-16-2010 - 1:14am
Gentiles have not routinely circumcised for, going out on a limb here, for 1500 years. It made it's come back in the Victorian era in an attempt to curb masterbation. It was a one time fad turned status symbol (only the wealthy were born in hospitals and could afford the procedure) turned cultural normalcy by roughly our our generation. That fad is now slowly ending with regards to secular circumcision.
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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-20-2007
In reply to: mrsruvi
Tue, 02-16-2010 - 9:00am

I was raised in a Missouri Synod Lutheran church, which i do not know if the national organization supports or does not support circumcision. I guess i've never looked. My church does/did.

I mention mutilation because someone (i think you?) mentioned cutting off labia which is generally referred to as Female Genital Mutilation.

So i guess, having heard only a few replies the only answer you all would have for me is "your religion is rare"/"your religion is against the established cultural norm of Christianity" and therefore my feelings that its a "normal" practice doesnt bother you?

What if it were just personal conviction? as in, I was Catholic, but personally feel that certain old testament commands should be followed, regardless of my church's established teaching? You'd be surprised the number of Christians who point to old testament law to support arguments (Gay marriage, and abortion chief among them). Would you call this "just because i can" circumcision?

Mrs Maggie and Micah's Mommie


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Registered: 03-28-2003
In reply to: mrsruvi
Tue, 02-16-2010 - 12:46pm

Hi Katie, welcome to the board!


You asked

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