Male lesbians?

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Male lesbians?
17
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 1:26am
Okay, warning y'all that this may get long and maybe confusing in advance, but...

I just came back upstairs from the courtyard after a long, wine induced discussion-turned-debate with a 65 y/o dyke (neighbor of mine) over male lesbians. Heck, the only reason we're not still arguing out there now is b/c her wife marched down (in her curlers and slippers) and ordered us both to shut up and go to bed.

So...yeah I know, next time we talk it's going to be "what were we arguing about" "I dunno". But I am thinking about it now and decided I want more input - like, who's right and who's wrong sorta thing.

Her outlook on male lesbians is that they're all just horny men who want to hook up with lesbians. I don't think so. I actually knew a guy in high school who identified himself as a lesbian. He was very vocal about it, but we all just thought it was a big joke. Well, last year was my 10/yr reunion. I didn't go, but found out through an old friend that SHE did. Yeah, the guy who called himself a lesbian is now a woman, and still only with women. Maybe if it weren't for her, I would've agreed with my neighbor (or at least taken her word for it and not gotten into a 2 hour debate).

What are your thoughts? What do y'all think about male lesbians? Okay, I better hit the sack b4 her wife sees the light on.....

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Avatar for themadhugger
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-21-2003
In reply to: sadie_mc
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 7:22am

Well with every possiblity and situation out there, why not?


I can see a man wanting to be a woman because he feels he is one from the physical standpoint (transgendered)

*hugs ~ Caly

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-19-2003
In reply to: sadie_mc
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 10:16am

Well Sadie.

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-29-2003
In reply to: sadie_mc
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 10:31am

with every possiblity and situation out there, why not?



 C  >^. A .

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-16-2003
In reply to: sadie_mc
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 11:17am

I have thought about this before, and it is an interesting and complex concept. I do think there are male lesbians even though they may not ever be identified as such, and I'm not just thinking here of the physical attraction (woman to woman). I know there are men in the world who emotionally connect to other people like women do. That emotional connection is part of what makes me a lesbian, and I can see that in other men.


As far as the transgendered situation goes, thinking of mtf's as lesbians is a bit harder for me to wrap my head around for various reasons. I do see it though, and I am reminded of the mtf character "Judy" in the movie "Better Than Chocolate". If there is such a thing as a male lesbian, "she" is it!


The bottom line for me is that it's important for people to just be who they are and to be what makes them happy.


Very interesting post, Sadie! Lots of food for thought.

Ting

Ting 

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-01-2004
In reply to: sadie_mc
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 5:42pm
Hi, I'm new here, but here goes. If someone transitions, it's that their gender identity was never male to start though. So were they ever really a "male lesbian?" Certainly MTFs can be lesbian, but on some level they were never really guys to begin with. On the other hand, I've met a few that came across more like straight couples where both people were physically women. Just not on the same wavelength if you know what I mean and usually really unaware of the lesbian community. But who am I to judge?

If someone's just a regular guy, I don't know. Then I'm going to lean towards the horny guy special of the day with a side order of might be a closeted MTF. But it doesn't quite make sense to me. I think the kind of equality that I feel is part of my identity as a lesbian is really based on our genders being the same and of ways we as women relate to one another.

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-25-2004
In reply to: sadie_mc
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 5:58pm
Is your name derived from the Unix Gnome desktop? Just curious.

rj

rj

Franco Harris of the Pittsburgh Steelers in 197

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-24-2003
In reply to: sadie_mc
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 6:36pm
One thing I would avoid like the plague is imposing myself on a community... my first steps were very tentative, but I was pretty much overwhelmed with love and acceptance and ultimately developed a confidence level in being a full fledged part of the lesbian community.

One poster mentioned that mtf transsexuals were never really guys, and yeah, that is correct. We certainly had to live with the body for however long, and yeah... there are things like it or not, whether we chose to or not, that tried so hard to socialise us as male... and it is stuff some have more difficulty than others in overcoming, others have more difficulty because of physical issues.

There are some mtf's that drive me crazy. I initially played on tg boards before meeting the smieling one on w.com, and that was like I'd died and gone to heaven. The tg boards could be awful places, and I finally walked away... just in time to meet ol' smiely, and well... it all changed from there. That led from w.com to here, to many friends, to people I've met in person and who have helped me enormously along the way. More than anyone though, smiely challenged me and never let me off easy, knowing the issues I had to face would be difficult.

Once I began full transition 340 days ago, I've not looked back. One step remains... but aside from that step, everything else is so natural for me, and everyone I know told me that it was evident from the first.

This is a long winded way of answering the question, but I'll try to pull it together... a male to female would not be a male lesbian. A man with no gender issues who claims lesbian status is either trying to show a personality he thinks or that is more in tune with how women generally relate to others (as another poster mentioned) or they are playing for advantage, or humour...

Every person is unique, so I suppose it is never wise to lump anyone into a criteria... some mtf trannies will have personalities that make me cringe, and have... attitudes that just reek of the entitlement some men seem to have.

On another board I have seen so many different variations of dykes and gender that it makes my head spin, make my story seem like a boring episode of Leave It To Beaver. It's a very diverse world, and am amazed by all I see.

I'm seriously rambling, but wish to add one more element... female to male transsexuals. I've had discussions about this before, but you don't see a connection between mtf's and the gay male community. Instead you see us connected to the dyke community. In addition, ftm's usually stay a part of the dyke community. I think it shows this is a very open and diverse community, fully accepting and welcoming... something I learned beginning four years ago from people like smiely, pam, ms kitty, lavender_grl, phoebe, sassy, nony, ven, kowski, and jaydi. I'm sure I've forgotten many!

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-01-2004
In reply to: sadie_mc
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 7:46pm
No actually I used to be an Everquest addict and played a gnome.
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-19-2003
In reply to: sadie_mc
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 9:59pm

Hi Kathy!

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
In reply to: sadie_mc
Tue, 08-03-2004 - 11:54pm
Whoa. Lots of great feedback thanks!

I actually do remeber our debate last night (though very chemically enduced) and got to thinking even more about it throughout the day - despite the pounding headache and all - wine hangovers suck btw. I don't know how or why this subject came up, or even why I decided to argue a subject I know so little about. Heck, from some of the responses, I realized just how ignorant I really am on the topic - actually thinking of a mtf tg as a "male lesbian". duhhhhh. But then again, she was a he when she called herself a lesbian (now I'm confusing meself again).

I also wanted to bring up a point my friend made in her argument. She considers herself "old school"...I don't know how much relevance this brings to our friendly debate, but one thing she stressed quite firmly *w/o quoting verbatim* >>>only a WOMAN can be a lesbian. Maybe there are men out there who can identify more as a person the way lesbians identify themselves - or so they think - but they're NOT lesbians. We'll just have to come up with another term for these guys<<<.........

......Ummmmmm, excuse my ignorance again, but is there an actual term in existence used to describe males who say they're lesbians? Just curious, b/c I'm also not good with labels and such. Am I offending anyone here? Okay, maybe I should just shut up and crawl back into my little hole, where I soooooo feel like I belong right now.

Oh to hell with labels, terms, and all that mess is what I think. Be what'cha want. Guess I've got more important things to mull in my head right now anyway. *crawls back into her hole*

Thanks for listening!

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