Belated Welcome, Shavtay2007
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Belated Welcome, Shavtay2007
| Tue, 03-20-2007 - 10:32am |
Hi Tziporah,
I am so sorry that this is such a belated welcome to you. I've been absent from the board for nearly a month - so many things have been happening in my life that it was difficult to also come here. The good news is that life has somewhat calmed down (but I'm still crossing my fingers and my toes), which means that I'm back on iVillage.
I am so very happy to see you here, participating and sharing in our conversations! I hope that we'll get to know each other better in the coming weeks.
Welcome again!
(PS: I love the sound of your name!)

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Hi Karen,
I'm glad you wrote back. I've come to look forward toreading your messages.
I am glad you got my point about the holocaust. discussion closed on this subject, i think.
Could you explain to me about the Trail of Tears? if it's too painful to talk about, just tell me and i'll do a google search. i guess i'm just lazy and it's so much faster to have you just explain it to me.
i'm not sure which book of Peck's you were referring to. I love his writing. he is one of the most progressive thinkers i think. also, a very open psychiatrist. not that i agree with all his positions. i do not. but i always gain something, learn something, from every book. i also love his annecdotes about the army and med school.
the book i was just finished was: Further Along The Road. he also explains about the four stages of religion in his book on medical ethics--i don't remember the name right now. anyway, a brief but concise description of the four stages is found in Further Along The Road. it was in his first book, The Road Less Traveled, that he really talked a lot about patients who had gone through child abuse.
i could relate to your voidance issues and your authority figures stuff. my question: (one i think any therapist would eventually ask you), is: if you feel resentment at picking up eerybody else's stuff, (at home or elsewhere), then why do you keep doing it? you know about systems theory, i'm sure. until somebody forces a change on the system, nothing will change. but once one part of the system changes, the entire system has no choice but to change. so, if you were to change by not picking up everybody else's stuff, you would be confronting them and forcing them to change. a little assertiveness might also help.
i also want to be rescued, taken care of, have someone else make my decisions for me. put that last clause about decisions in all-capital letters. i like it when my husband, Shabtai, makes the decisions--gets me off the hook of having to go through the anxiety of weighing the various options, going through the anxiety of not knowing whether or not i mde the right choice, avoiding the responsibility. that is why my t. is working so hard on this right now. he's forcing me not to turn to my husband for every decision. in fact, Shabtai doesn't know it--he does not know what happens in therapy, of course--but often he will say, "you decide." and i protest: "why do i always have to make the decisions?"
i found your account of the hanging skin on your finger fascinating and revealing--for me it is the first time anyone has related to it in an empathic way. thank you!
it was mind-boggling to me to think that anyone could use this si habit as an inspiration. you are right about touching my fingers, that that is how i "see" them. i trace my fingers with my hands, or more often, with another finger. i like the shapes, the patterns, that appear on the surface of the finger, the textural difference between the rough part and the smooth part, how sometimes the surface is carved with indentations--something like a candle that is partly melted, or like warm soap which has been accidentally dropped in a tub, and then you see how the shape of the soap has changed, feel how it's changed. i compare my hands. usually, but not always, the left finger 2 will correspond to the right finger 2, left 4 to right 4, etc. also, different fingers have their "favorite places" for getting picked at. finger 4 always gets ppicked near the nail and cuticle, never high up. fingers 4 and 5 are the least picked on. for the rest, it could be anywhere, from close to the cuticle to all the way up. to the second joint. if you hold your finger in a folded downward position, like when making a fist, you will see the fingr fold in three places. i am up to the second crease.
today, the finger that is bothering me most is the right index finger. the sore on top is still aggravating me. and i also bit where the cuticle meets the nai. if i lay the skin flat, it fits back. but it doesn';t always lie flat. that is when it annoys me.
i also had the thought: "please, please don't let this be the innocent, inncocuous start of a bad si habit." please, Karen, don't follow in my tracks. not in biting off loose skin, at least."
anyway, yesterday i did some work and then wtched another movie. this one,"ordinary people". very good actually. it has a positive portrayal of a psychiatrist and deals with a teenager in crisis and the disintegration of a suburban family--both resulting from the accidental death of the older brother.
i see a pattern in these films in which psychiatrists are portrayed--the David and Lisa film, and now this one, as well as some books. it follows pretty much what happened to me with this last therapist. first, surface talk, avoidance of the issue, dealing with facts rather than feeling, then a dramatic confrontation, and then exposing the deep feelings, wit the hurt and crying and all of that. that's where it ends. they never show you the recovery process after that. that is where i'm at in therapy. trying to get it together. but i'm really not. not getting it together. there are so many things i am still avoiding--just beginning to tlk about, but still able to do. i can talk about what i should do, but not do what i should do.
depressed today. it's morning here. i haen't been out all week. my t. says i should get out. really have no place to go. could go to my mother-in-law's for lunch. but it seems so ridiculous to get dressed just to go down the street three houses. could show up in my bathrobe, but that sounds crazy at two in the afternoon, although i have done it. i know the point is to get out and get some su on my face. but it seems dumb to do that if you have nowhere to go. that's a big issue for me. how to fill my time.
i guess i watched these films because i want to understand the therapy process. actually, i think i do understand it, as much as anyone can understand such a process. because it really is mysterious in a way. but it helps to watch, even if it is only on film, people going through it. was it you who recommended i watch that youtube clip with Fritz what's-his'name? i can usually remember names quite good. oy. well, you know who i mean--the geshtalt guy. well, that clip--i just couldn't relate to it. not real. but the stuff in these movies--it felt real.
also, i was in therapy as a teen. never saw anything like what happened in the film. i did not get along with my t. could not relate to her at all. was in individual and then group therapy. a waste of time and money. it was only with this last therapist, my third as an adult, that i really experienced the full range of the therapeutic process. it's also depicted quite well in the book of Irvin Yalom, though i find him sometimes to be a bit pompous and arrogrant. and over-occupied with sex-related stuff. well, that's another story and i am not going to write more.
don't think you must respond to every issue. i realized, while writing this, a lot of this is for me, my diary of sorts. i used to keep a diary. this thread on this msb is taking that place right now.
ps. this is too long to reread and correct the misspellings and typos, so if there are any, sorry.
Tziporah
blog: tziporahwishky.livejournal.com
web: www.istillhavemylife.com
blog: tziporahwishky.livejournal.com
I have a few links for the Choctaw information you asked for.
I have a short post for you and I don't know think you will like it.
Hi Karen,
I look forward to your daily posts too. really have gotten dependent on them--a good dependence. laugh. i was just thinking--when Poppy was the cl. here, she and i also had this kind of thing going--back-and-forth writing, very similar to what we are doing now between us. with Poppy, and with Amanda, who came after her, we also skyped. do you have skype? if you do, perhaps we could set up something sometime. let me know and i'll give you my skype details. it was really neat, cool, talking to them via skype--hearing each other's voices.
thanks for the links about the Trail of Tears. i will check it out. i thought the Trail of Tears was an actual trail, like the Appalachian Trail. is that right? or is it just the name of their national history? or both? i am a little bit confused. of course, if i just read the links you sent, i'd have the answers to these questions, but right now i am too busy to do that. so please just clarify.
i thihnk you'll like Peck's book, Further Along The Road. i liked it better than the other one, The Road Less Traveled. i don't think Peck wants us to agree with all of his ideas. all good authors do not want that. he really wants us to think, and that he certainly does make us do. think about ourselves, our spirituality, our mental health, our relationships, everything. you will find some really good stuff in the second book--i promise.
you do not have to beg my pardon for being blunt. that is what we all need sometimes and if we can't take it, well... look, if we were in group therapy, wouldn't we be blunt with each other? of course we would that is what makes group so powerful. hearing the truth from our peers, not an expert. the t. can say the same thing, but it sounds different coming from a member. i don't know if you were ever in group, but as a teen, i was.
this msb is the closest thing to that.
i needed to hear that. probably way back when, very early in my thread, i did describe in detail about where on my fingers i chew and pick. sometimes i have even said that i am chewing on or picking at my fingers. sometimes it is right at the point where the nail meets the cuticles. but, as you rightly point out, often it is not. i got used to calling it that. everyone else did too--including my therapists. lying to myself in a kind of way--hiding under that label.
you are the first one to point out the disparity. call a thing by its name, what it really is. don't hide in nice-sounding but false terms, false accuracies. is there such a thing as false accuracies? laugh, of course not. but you know what i mean. as they say: call a spade a spade. i needed to hear this. really needed to hear it. thanks.
maybe that's why i keep looking at my fingers, examining them, tracing them with my fingers, touching them, because somehwere in my subconscious, unconscious, inside, or whatever you want to call it, i am trying to reconcile what is really happening with the lie i have been telling myself and everybody else--that it is only biting my cuticles. it certainly is not. it's picking at my fingers, as well as my cuticles. i need to come clean and recognize that, acknowledge that, admit that, own that. it's making them red, rough, bleed, everything. if that isn't si, what is?
look, if i am going to get better, i need to hear the truth. right? so, please, please be blunt and honest. i am well along enough in this journey that i can hear it. i'm not just starting out. so please, please always be honest with me, even if what you have to say hurts. sometimes, that is the best medicine.
i don't know if you realized this, but my t. and i have sessions over the phone. we used to have them in person, before he left this country to return to Canada. when he left, i was already over a year into treatment with him, and having gone through three therapists already, was not about to start again with yet another. he was unconventional enough to let me stay with him. also, the phone made us equal--i couldn't see him and he couldn't see me. when we met face to face it was an unequal playing field because he could see me but i could not see him. that was an issue, of course. but in order to really work, we needed that euqal playing field and he recognized that.
before he left, after about a year into therapy, i showed him my hands. of course he must have seen them before, but this time i deliberately made a point of showing them to him. he said: "i've seen worse." probably so. but since then i have played this game of always telling him something like: "i'm biting my cuticles again." i now realize, from reading what you wrote, i need to be more honest and tell him the whole truth. that it isn't just my cuticles, but more extensive.
about telling people the truth, even when it hurts, that is wat therapy is about. this msb is sort of like therapy, well, at the very least, a very good adjunct to it.
my hands are also my tools, just like they are for you. i use them for reading. i use them for eating. i use them for cooking. so, i really should want to keep them in good shape. it's just that it is a very old habit--from when i was a kid. and, as i know, if i valued myself, really valued myself, i wouldn't do it.
today there is a party i have to go to. everyone will see my cut up fingers. shoot. (take out the double o and put in the letter i.)
you're right. i have been getting anxius about the resumption of therapy. i think that is why i have gotten into watching these psychiatrist movies oer and over. i need to see how others have gone through it. you are right. drama makes great TV and movies. and there is nothing quite like the drama of the first part of therapy, where the therapist and person being treated have to somehow connect, where the t. has to whittle down the resistance. you don't think i ever yelled and cursed my present t.? you bet i did. crying in front of him? much less, because i had already done that with a previous one. boyy, did i cry! in fact, he told me once, "i wish you would cry." and the very next session, i broke down and openly wept for the first time. i really have to be very deeply hurt to cry in front of anybody. here i am referring to a previous therapist. with this current one, it isn't that kind of deep weeping. more like crying when it gets really painful, when it really hurts. i think the only time i couldn't handle it was when he said he was leaving the country.then i did cry openly.
i think tht was one of the good things in the film, Ordinary People. it showed how regular sessions work, not just the real dramatic ones. and i liked that part about the session with the kid's father because it showed very well the difference, the contrast, between how therapy with teens and with adults usually goes, and that sometimes, a short-term, even one-session meeting can be helpful and might be all that is necessary. so, although there was drama, there were also more regular scenes of moe typical sessions--what one would be like, and i think that was good.
i guess i'e been watching these films because i know i have to get down to work. he's told me as much. and it's so hard! you are right about how it is painful, physically as wellas mentally. how, when you have a good t., as i do, it is the hardest thing in the world to go through--or at least, one of the hardest. during these two weeks i have realized one thing--i still have problems and i still need the therapy and i have to buckle down to work. excwept--the work i now need to do is so darn hard. (change letter r to m.)
i think that is what is making me so anxious. he has hinted he often wonders why i am still in therapy,that sometimes he feels helpless to help me anymore. i don't think i could start over again with yet another t. i would just do without. but i am drifting without one. i see that. two weeks without him and i'm a mess. i'm treading water, functioning, but just managing it. wasting tons of time. still tensed up and depressed and anxious about a lot of things. the paxxil keeps me under control, prevents the bad dreams at night. one night without it and i had really bad dreams. i forgot to take it one night--was lazy. well, after that dream, i got back on it real fast. i guess wtching these films, i see the confrontation with the truth, the pain, how the process works. i see others going through with it and that gives me strength and courage to go through it also.
Tziporah
blog: tziporahwishky.livejournal.com
web: www.istillhavemylife.com
blog: tziporahwishky.livejournal.com
Hi Tziporah,
I don’t do Skype.
Hi Karen,
I had to turn on the computer to check out some info and saw your message. I usually do not turn it on this early on Friday. I have a lot of cooking to do for the Sabbath. It is about 6am now.
Anyyway---
You and I are so alike, or at least think alike, and have had some very similar experiences. it is amazing. I am exactly like you when it comes to technology. I hate learning anything new. I learned how to use a computer--word processor, internet--only because I had to do so in order to carry out tasks connected with all the activities I do in my work. but, oh boy--did I hate it.
Cell phones? I just laughed. exactly like me! i mean it. my husband and i each have an old cell phone model that has only the very basic stuff on it. and i really mean very basic.as minimal as you can get. just dialing, message retrieval, repeat dialing, and that is all. none of the digital stuff.
awhile back the cell phone was not working. we went to the distributor to fix it. he said we could get a cheaper plan if we switched to a newer model of cell phone. we asked for the same kind of model because it is so simple to use. also,the keypad is very tactile. the newer digital models he showed us have keypads which are very difficult for een the most sensitive touch. he was trying to sell us on all the upgrades. in the end, we just told him to forget it. we'll pay more, but at least we have a simple phone without all that tech jazz. the crunch--he said they don't even make the model of phone we have anymore! he called it "obsolete." and that model, the one we have, is only about three or four years old. in the tech world, that is ancient!
thanks for the explanation about the Trail of Tears. clarifies everything.
About Peck: every few months I read a book, then digest it, and then go back and read another one. so, there is no need to rush through this stuff.
i forgot to respond to your point in your last post about going outside. i liked the "body factory" explanation. itmakes sense. but i still cannot see the point of going outside if you have no place to go. still, when i actually had to go out yesterday to that party, i did think of the words "body factory." it did make an impression.
i have written about my group experiences in therapy in this thread or elsewhere on this board. i am sure of it. briefly, i couldn't relate to them. they were all kids who were doing drugs and liked acid rock. i never took drugs and didn't like acid rock. just could not connect to them at all. they also all smoked, including the two shrinks, and i'd walk out of there with that smoke odor on my hands, in my clothes, on my hair. i hted it. i had had a friend who was in a group and she said how muchit had helped her. on the basis of her rave reviews of it, i had campaigned my shrink to let me join one. that is really what i called it at the time--a campaign. well, she complied--perhaps because private sessions were not getting anywhere. believe it or not, i also did the silent stuff--would just sit in her office and not say anything! although i did put up a great fuss about going intoher office from the waiting room. so, she may be right when she remarked that i was not truly silent in therapy. in group, i eentually walked out in protest and would oftenjust sit on the lawn--really stand on the sidewalk during the time i was supposed to be inside. private sessions were 1 hour a week. group was 3 hours a week--to ninety-minute sessions. a lot of time.
i am not saying therapy is not good for teens and some can't benefit from it. read Reviving Ophelia and you will find many stories of teens that have gotten a lot out of it. but it takes a special kind of therapist and the teenager has to really want it for themself, not to be forced into it by his/her parents or the state. in my case, it was a forced job from my parents. also, i had very little respect for her Jewishness. she actually worked on the holy day of Yom Kippur--the Day of Atonement, which, in Judaism, is one of the holiest days of the year. most Jews, even if they are not obserance, will do some sort of observance on this day. to me, working on Yom Kippur was the height of insult. once i found that out, i lost all respect for her. anyway, that's old history now.
well, therapy started again last night. clap your hands. i was honest. told him the real truth about my fingers. he seemed surprised. maybe i had never shown him the real extent. maybe when i did show him my hands in therapy it really was just the cuticles that were messed up at the time. even though--at that time--i was already doing more extensive stuff on my fingers. maybe he just forgot because we haven't seen each other face-to-face for many years. whatever, he seemed genuinely surprised. he said something like, "do you mean that you bite your fingers?" it just sounded so crass, so gross, the way he said it--not the way he asked the question--but the words he used. call a spade a spade. i answered, "yes." it is gross. disgusting.
there on it, it was downhill all the way. laugh. he challenged every statement i made. typical of him, but really the crux of the treatment strategy he is using. he's tough. he wanted to work on my inability to make decisions--something i had told him i was anxious about and he asked me if i remembered something from the previous session--a certain concept related to that issue which he had explained. of course i didn't. really stumbled on it. really fumbled on it.
bottom line: he didn't mince his words. said i had to get my act together, it was my choice, my life. or else. no messing around with this guy. not at this point anyway. too deep in for that. did a real cognitive therapy job on me. afterwards, just felt sad. watched Coal Miner's daughter movie on the internet and called a friend and gabbed. then when to bed. Shabtai asked about it. i couldn't talk about it. he just comforted me and held me. what a great husband.
he's right, of course, on eery point. that's the thing. i know he's right and i have got to turn myself around. that is what makes this so hard! knowing tthat this therapist is dead right.
Tziporah
blog: tziporahwishky.livejournal.com
web: www.istillhavemylife.com
blog: tziporahwishky.livejournal.com
Hi Tziporah,
I wasn’t able to sleep and was surprised to see a response so quickly.
I think every religion has certain days and rituals that are just so holy, the thought of violating them would be unthinkable. in Judaism, observing Yom Kippur and circumcising males are examples. I can see how in Catholocism Ash Wednesday and other things, like Baptism, could fit into that category. what i meant was: knowing that this shrink worked on such a holy day caused me to lose respect for her. if you can't respect your therapist, there is no way it's going to work.
the same with smoking. the fact that she did just increased my dislike for her. i have never liked smoking and my friends have never done it. in fact, when i started going out, everybody knew that guys who smoked were off the list. thankfully, my husband only tried it once as a kid and hated it immediately. his family are all nonsmokers. this is what i meant.
i know people have the right to make their choices.
Jack Goreman, in his fine book on psychiatry, called, The New Psychatry, in which he describes different therapies and medication options, says that the relationship between a patient and a psychiatrist is different than the relationship between a patient and doctor in other medical specialties. it doesn't matter if the cardiologist has a good bedside manner or not. the main thing is that he or she knows about the heart and can treat the condition. but in psychiatry, and by extension psychology, social work, etc., all the mental health professions, if the patient does not like or respect the therapist, or (less often recognized), if the therapist does not like or respect the patient, it is just not going to work, because the relationship between them is part of the whole therapeutic process. besides not being able to relate to the group, this other factor, not respecting or liking the therapist meant it was never going to work.
that part about lighting a candle and putting it out sounds weird and a very cumbersome kind of method in a group. i mean, it must have slowed down the interactions, if every time before you spoke, or had finished speaking, you'd have to light and blow the candle out.
that is one thing i can say about all the therapists i have had as an adult. i chose them, i liked them, and i respected them. even this one--who is the most aggressive and toughest of them all--i like and respect him. i think he has the same regard for me. and that is why it works.
anyway, i did a lot of thinking on the Sabbath. rested a lot, prayed, meditated. it helped. somehow, i feel better today.
fingers healing slowly.
next session tomorrow. my sessions are on Mondays and Thursdays.
so sorry to hear you think your son has celliac. let me know how that goes.
hope you are getting better.
Tziporah
blog: tziporahwishky.livejournal.com
web: www.istillhavemylife.com
blog: tziporahwishky.livejournal.com
I just woke up. nice outside--birds chirping. it's still quite early here, a little after 5:30am. i often get up this early.
anyway, i turned on the computer and the first thing i did was come here. i wanted to let yo know the sores are almost all gone. just slight sores mnow. this is the next critical stage--letting them heal completely and not starting to pick at an almost-healed sore.
somehow, still feeling better since that meditative prayer i had on Saturday. just lay in bed and talked to G-d. in our religion, we never right the complete name.
yesterday i finally got thematerials for this new class i'm teaching. the person who started this class lives in the U.S. and is very rigid. i asked her to send me the materials via fedex so i could have it really quickly. wow--did i have to work to convince her! it was like pulling teeth. finally, she agreed. she sent it out Thursday night her time and it came Sunday noon my time. so now i am busy with that. i guess that will take my mind off other things for awhile.
you have issues with male therapists. i have issues with female ones. they all remind me of my mother--or at least throw me into a big transference. the only one who didn't was my aunt. she's a therapist and i had a few sessions with her. i guess because she was my aunt and is really a good therapist in her own right--not because she is my aunt--i got a lot out of those sessions. in fact,a lot of those sessions had to do with the relationship between my mother and myself. i guess she was helpful because she is also my mother's sister and could seem where i was coming from, where my mother was coming from, and help me to see that my mother does love me.
anyway, one question about that group you were in? did you have to keep lighting and putting out the candle as iimagine? that's what i keep imagining in my mind. how could any interaction be spontaneous if you had to keep doing that. sounds pretty weird to me.
anyway, what i really wanted to say is: i'm glad you found a male therapist you could respect--even though he was only yourclass instructor. it's important that we don't classify everyone into thenegative basket, lump everyone together, just because we ourselves had bad experiences.
from what i can tell, working with teens seems to be much harder than with adults.
how is your son feeling? better, i hope. good luck with this competition.
i hope your virus has made it's last roar and will leave you alone.
thanks for writing back even though you were tired.
Tziporah
blog: tziporahwishky.livejournal.com
web: www.istillhavemylife.com
blog: tziporahwishky.livejournal.com
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