The Nativity Story - Fact or Fiction?

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Registered: 04-22-2003
The Nativity Story - Fact or Fiction?
46
Sat, 12-02-2006 - 5:50pm

There's been a lot of buzz about the movie "The Nativity" which has pulled in a C+ from the critics.  Have you seen or are you going to see it?


What do you think about the story?  Believe it happened that way? Or is it fabricated for effect?


** Remember, this is just for lively discussion and everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether or not you agree with it!


Bink


Not really into Siggees...
 
Not all who wander are lost.
(J.R.R. Tolkien)


iVillage Member
Registered: 04-22-2003
Fri, 12-08-2006 - 4:21pm

Mimi, I'm not going to go into the depth and breadth of the religious studies or ministries I have undertaken in my life, but it is unfair of you to assume that I get it


iVillage Member
Registered: 12-07-2006
Fri, 12-08-2006 - 5:24pm

Bink,

I believe it's appropriate that without having to defend, discuss, or go into depth and breadth, you at least share where you got that the Catholic Church chose four gospels *because* of the four winds, four points on the compass, arbitrariness.... point of view. Or is it also unfair of me to assume that you checked the source, being far better well-read.... and all?

Mimi

3 million children, 33 days. The impossible is possible.

http://www.feed333.com/?fid=643A7FE6-BEB7-0701-6CEFD8ED9030BE66




Edited 12/8/2006 6:20 pm ET by finding_mimo
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 12-08-2006 - 7:00pm

If I've missed welcoming you, I do apologize.

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-22-2003
Sat, 12-09-2006 - 12:21pm

Cumulative retained knowledge is difficult to track.


iVillage Member
Registered: 08-09-2005
Sat, 12-09-2006 - 1:12pm

And my great X4 grandfather lived in Tennessee, but fought for the North. He survived only to be killed by a stray bullet while gardening....


This is family folklore. Nothing more. Handed down for 150 years, and probably not able to be substantiated. 100 years after Jesus died in the primitive society that was, the accounts can't be proven facts anymore than the story of my ggggpa.


I do not believe in the immaculate conception or the ascension. I believe the most important thing about Jesus is the way he lived. I try to model my life after him, and other great sons and daughters of god--Buddha, Gandhi, mother teresa.........THAT is what makes me christ-like. Modeling my behavior so my life is like that of Christ. NOT raising my hands, speaking in tongues, claiming to be born-again, or anything else that fundamentalist churches try to charm the masses into believing-- Furthermore, not believing in fairy tales and folklore.


~MissApril
iVillage Member
Registered: 12-07-2006
Sat, 12-09-2006 - 1:14pm

I love intellectual (thought-ful) discussions. Fair enough. In summary, it's not that you're interested in backing up any assertions, just making assertions is enough. In simply accepting the 'four winds/four points compass arbitrary settling on 4 gospels by the Holy Catholic Church' is the logical equivalent of saying 'the refrigerator was invented because Alaska is far from my fork.' Don't ask me where I got that from, just ACCEPT it ... as long as my convenient escape hatch is labeled "my opinion, based on no fact".

I'm not the person who raised the big question.... Fact or Fiction. Why bother asking? The better question would be "Did anybody eat popcorn while watching The Nativity Story, that is, if you watched it?" At the get-go let's keep it at an intellectually supportable level.

:)

-Mimi

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Registered: 04-22-2003
Sat, 12-09-2006 - 1:18pm

Of the many gospels written in antiquity, exactly four gospels came to be accepted as part of the New Testament, or canonical. An insistence upon there being a canon of canonical four, and no others, was a central theme of Irenaeus of Lyons, c. 185. In his central work, Adversus Haereses Irenaeus denounced various early Christian groups that used only one gospel, such as Marcionism which used only Marcion's version of Luke, as well as groups that embraced the texts of newer revelations, such as the Valentinians (A.H. 1.11). Irenaeus declared that the four he espoused were the four pillars of the Church: "it is not possible that there can be either more or fewer than four" he stated, presenting as logic the analogy of the four corners of the earth and the four winds (3.11.8).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospels



iVillage Member
Registered: 12-07-2006
Sat, 12-09-2006 - 3:33pm

So, your assertion is that the gospels are folklore and fairytales. In that case then for all I know Buddha is folklore, and Gandhi was delusional and we all seek truth from crazies.

You also claim to be (or maybe want to be) christ-like. In order for anybody who is sane to claim to be christ-like in any way ASSUMES there is a story they heard or read and believed. Christ plays a starring role in the gospels. One cannot claim to authentically model the life of a fictional character. By concluding that it is folklore, how is that possible for you to be like one who (according to you) did not exist outside of folklore and fairytales. Unless you believe in folklore and fairytales. I have never heard of anyone modeling their life after the 3 Little Pigs.

In case you are suggesting my ggggdaddy's service during the Civil War is folklore, you would be mistaken. His military records exist and it is fact, not fiction, that he was killed on the battlefield. The Civil War DID happen and lots of men were killed, whether or not you SAY it is folklore. That one would even believe that certain historic events didn't happen would be evidence that the person themself is prone to believing in fairytales and folklore.

That you do not believe this or that (Immaculate Concepcion, Ascension, feeding 5000, turning water to wine) is truly a matter of faith. The great mystery is such that whatsoever you believe, it IS so. So those of us who believe like little children, chances are that we go through life with light heartedness and hope and joy.

If a deaf man were told about the beauty of music, he like yourself, would have no reason to believe it because he is incapable of perceiving that "substantiation", evidence, or proof if you will. That requirement of needing proof, by the way, is an invention or learned concept that resides only in one's own mind. He may need the requisite sense (in his case, hearing) to even allow himself to believe it.... either that or he can simply choose to believe or disbelieve it regardless of proof. Either way it's his choice. The existence of music is not dependent on his belief/disbelief. Music doesn't need him in order to be music.

You make it seem as though raising one's hands and speaking in tongues is some sort of required behavior for salvation by certain religions. There's a tinge of disdain about it. It is not them wanting to model behavior, but rather it's an effect that is subject to the experience of the experiencer and perhaps something you and I are clueless about. So it would not be fair of me to offer an opinion about their manifestation of faith anymore than you would want them to criticize your way of "faith" manifestation.

Do you believe in angels? Spirits? Life after death? What do you believe in that's safe from the labels of folklore and fairytales? Do yo believe in smell even if you have a cold? Do you believe in "god". Why? Where's your proof?

You mention what makes you christ-like, (I notice the deliberate caps/non-caps in your post, that's interesting in itself). I have no idea what that means for you. What are those things, or maybe it would be easier if you could share what was it about the way this fictional Christ lived long ago that impresses you, a person living in 2006. Name 5 qualities of "the way he lived" that strike a chord with you. Is it that He was poor? Is it that He was easy going? (You're the one who mentioned "he lived" in your post, so I assume you're not talking about a fictional character born in a manger.)

Or was it the Sermon on the Mount? Feeding the 5000? Turning water to wine maybe? Healing the sick, restoring sight to the blind? How about ... making heaven's Grand Opening available to souls by taking on our admission price by dying? Rising? I'd have to believe all that first in order for any personal impact to take place.... and I do. Whether or not anyone calls it folklore or fairytales... is someone's opinion.

We can only aspire in humility to be Christ-like, the moment we boastfully claim to be Christ-like is when we are furthest from being so. And conversely, when we humbly acknowledge being far from the mark, and yearn to be better, is when we are closest to it. Think about that one.

-Mimi

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-07-2006
Sat, 12-09-2006 - 3:55pm

So, it was analogous after the fact logic, not cause/effect logic. Meaning the 4 were not chosen BECAUSE of the 4 winds, etc. But rather all that is NEEDED in the teachings is the 4, not less, not more. We do not need a fifth wind, or a fifth point on the compass, it's redundant. Like having 37 recipes for broccolli. Just make sure you have broccolli, you don't need every single recipe to enjoy the BENEFITS OF broccolli.

Where am I being judgmental? I haven't judged anything, just wanted to understand the evolution of your belief. This is a non-emotional discussion. Is this not a discussion board???

-Mimi

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-22-2003
Sat, 12-09-2006 - 4:32pm