Farenheit 9/11 put in perspective

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-26-2003
Farenheit 9/11 put in perspective
78
Mon, 06-28-2004 - 9:59am
Its a frickin film! You know...just like Armogeddon, The Day After Tomorrow, and Bowling For Columbine? No need to crap a farking brick over it. Its amazing how some people can get so worked up over another person's opinion. Its even more amazing that some people take HOLLYWOOD CREATIONS as truths! Yeah, I saw it. I laughed because I know that the film is skewed far left but he does make very good points. After I got out of the theater, two guys got into a brawl over it in the parking lot....over...a...frickin...MOVIE. And you wonder why some people have less and less faith in the American people? We're acting like morons over the most trivial stuff. No need to yell at other people to get out of the country, no need to proclaim the word of Michael Moore as truth. If you're so deadset on what you believe, then you can watch the film as entertainment and acknowledge its existence, right? Why do you get so offended by it? It always amuses me how people generally have the opinion of "Yeah I believe in freedom of speech as long as it conforms with what I believe in." In the words of my mother, "GROW UP!"

Pages

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-16-2004
Mon, 06-28-2004 - 6:03pm
- 1. Those are two different definitions of a documentary, Moore's film would certainly meet the definition of the first. I would argue that the second is only an idea that has come about in recent times and there are NUMEROUS examples of documentaries that would not meet that "requirement."



No, they are the same definition, and Moore's work fits neither.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 06-28-2004 - 6:13pm
<<"

Djie

Avatar for car_al
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Mon, 06-28-2004 - 7:07pm
Here are two reputable sources with different definitions of the same word.

Doc-u-men-ta-ry

2. designating or of a motion picture, television program, etc. that dramatically shows or analyzes news events, social conditions, etc., with little or no fictionalization – n., Webster’s New World Dictionary (Copywrite 1986) definition:

"Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film." American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition (2000)

Which is why I advocate keeping an open mind on this. Film is art and as art evolves it informs and challenges its viewers. Something Moore has certainly done with ‘Fahrenheit 9/11’.

C

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 06-28-2004 - 8:03pm
You did a fine job of responding, IMHO. I think Michael Moore deliberately pushes emotional hot buttons. It's interesting the amount of controversy his button pushing generates from conservatives who sport a number of similar personalities--Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage. I don't see Republicans/conservatives getting hot and bothered about inconsistencies or hyperbole in any of that lot!

I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 yesterday and think Moore should have cited source material. Let the facts speak for themselves, without the editorializing, Michael. It would still have been damning for Bush. I guess he couldn't resist the opportunity to get in some digs of his own. Maybe you could call it "poetic license"! :-)

Gettingahandle

Ignorance is Nature's most abundant fuel for decision making.

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-02-2004
Tue, 06-29-2004 - 8:28am
>>>You did a fine job of responding, IMHO.<<

I appreicate your comment, thanks. Yes, moore is a spinmeister, not much different than gibson and many other filmakers who want to get publicity and attention, controversy out there. Mel gibson did it, but he doesn't seem to face the same critisism-shrug!

>> don't see Republicans/conservatives getting hot and bothered about inconsistencies or hyperbole in any of that lot!<<

No you don't, they have been caught flat out lying and yet they still have an audience who forgives them and trusts that whatever else they say is fact or doesn't mind that they fudge the truth a wee bit.

>>I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 yesterday and think Moore should have cited source material.<<

I absolutely agree, perhaps he does when the video comes out or on his website.

As to dj's links regarding moore claiming he wasn't attempting to make a political film, I have to surmise moore is either jesting, or pushing that little old controversy button on teh foreheads of conservatives, because lets face it the political nature of the documentary is GLARING ;)

alfreda

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-05-2003
Tue, 06-29-2004 - 8:36am

Here is another definiton


Main Entry: tact
Pronunciation: 'takt
Function: noun
Etymology: French, sense of touch, from Latin tactus, from tangere to touch -- more at TANGENT
1 : sensitive mental or aesthetic perception tact>
2 : a keen sense of what to do or say in order to maintain good relations with others or avoid offense

In order for something to meet this definition it does not have to be BOTH sensitive metal or easthetic perception AND a keen sense of what to do or say in a situation, it has to be ONE OR THE OTHER.


And Moore's film was based on documents and therefore most certainly meets the first definition of a "documentary" as you posted.

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-05-2003
Tue, 06-29-2004 - 8:41am

Moore says he wants to be judged on his skills as a director. "If I wanted to make a political speech, I'd run for office," Moore told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. "I'm a filmmaker, and I wanted to make a movie for people to go see it." Yeah RIGHT. That's about the only joke he made, strangely the audience wasn't cracking up....


Talk about taking something out of context.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 06-29-2004 - 1:11pm
Wow, and a merry afternoon to you too James..... since you seem to feel we are on

Djie

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2004
Tue, 06-29-2004 - 1:44pm
<>

Ok I had to bud in here...you keep referring to Fox News as a source of misinformation and comparing it to Moore's work...what about CNN and MSNBC??? Is it that they weren't mentioned because they lean way to the left then Fox and so you discredit Fox in their news briefs and information? Hmmm...

<>

No actually it suited his point perfectly...he probably edited the part where the congressmand told him his children are actually in the war. Instead you got a confused face and the point then supports Moore's "shouldn't your children be fighting in Iraq?"

The congressman was probably like "THEY ARE, WTF??" in his head. That is a perfect example of the capabilties Moore has to minipulate something to make it look a certain way when in reality it isn't that way at all.

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2004
Tue, 06-29-2004 - 2:06pm
<

-Not until someone makes a reality show called The Life of the Bin Ladins. But I'm sure there's evidence out there somewhere...someone knows and they have simply chosen not to reveal it.>>

I think it may have been very wise for Bush to secure Bin Laden's family after the attacks. The inforamtion he could get could benefit him and the country to great lengths. Here is an article about some family and information and POV's from a couple of them. Keep your friends close but your enemies closer. Moore ironically failed to say anything about Bush's possible reasoning for securing Bin Laden's family, well probably because it doesn't support his Political stance.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=11471588&method=full

http://www.boston.com/globe/search/



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



BIN LADEN KIN FLOWN BACK TO SAUDI ARABIA

Author(s): Kevin Cullen, Globe Staff, Date: September 20, 2001

Page: A29, Section: National/Foreign


Boston-area relatives of Osama bin Laden, the Saudi-born terrorist who stands accused of masterminding last week's suicide hijackings, flew back to Saudi Arabia in the last two days because of concerns for their safety, according to the Saudi government.



Dozens of Saudi citizens were flown back to Saudi Arabia at their government's expense, while the bin Ladens are believed to have paid their own way, according to a Saudi diplomat. All of those who took up the Saudi government's offer to fly home were reportedly questioned by the FBI before being allowed to board the flights. A Saudi diplomat told The Boston Globe that the relatives of bin Laden had been advised by both the Saudi government and the FBI to return to Saudi Arabia at least temporarily for their own safety.


All of Osama bin Laden's relatives, members of one of Saudi Arabia's richest families, have publicly disowned him and renounced his extremist views and his Al Qaeda terror organization, which advocates the killing of Americans in a jihad, or holy war.


In Washington last night, an FBI spokesman refused to confirm or deny that the FBI approved the Saudi government's repatriation program or had advised the bin Ladens to return to Saudi Arabia. Nor would the spokesman say if the FBI was interviewing anyone who took part in it to rule them out as suspects in the biggest criminal investigation in US history.


Special Agent Gail Marcinkiewicz, a spokeswoman for the Boston FBI office, also declined to comment.


It was unclear how many members of bin Laden's family flew home over the last two days, but aviation sources said a flight that left Logan on Tuesday night contained only five passengers, all of whom were said to be members of bin Laden's family.


A Saudi government spokesman said the plane used by the bin Ladens was privately chartered by the family. Sources familiar with that plane said it was a Boeing 727 that had been reconfigured so that it had only about 30 first-class seats.


A second flight, paid for by the Saudi government, was scheduled to depart Logan last night, after making stops in other cities, including Los Angeles and Orlando.


A Saudi government spokesman said that, as of yesterday afternoon, more than 20 Saudi citizens had accepted the offer for a free trip home, but he said the number could grow. A source at Logan said that the FBI was "all over these planes" prior to takeoff, but the Saudi government said no one has been refused permission by the FBI to return to Saudi Arabia.


While the FBI has repeatedly searched Flagship Wharf, the Charlestown condominium complex where one of bin Laden's brothers, Mohammaed, owns six luxury apartments, and where some of the relatives live, a Saudi diplomat yesterday said there is no indication that bin Laden's relatives are considered suspects.


The diplomat, who spoke from the Saudi Embassy in Washington on the condition he was not named, said the FBI would not have allowed the relatives to leave the United States if there was any evidence that would link them to the plot.


Barry Scheer, a lawyer for Mohammaed M. bin Laden, said he does not know how many members of the family left the Boston area.


Osama bin Laden has 51 siblings and is the scion of a large, wealthy family whose father was a favored contractor for the Saudi royal family. Several of Osama's relatives have resided on and off in Boston during the past decade.


After Osama bin Laden was implicated last year in the attack on the USS Cole in Yemen that left 17 sailors dead, the FBI searched some of Mohammaed M. bin Laden's condo units at Flagship Wharf. After last Tuesday's suicide hijackings, the FBI returned to the Charlestown complex, and began asking questions about the relatives.


A Saudi government spokesman said the FBI interest in the bin Laden relatives was "routine," and was aimed at ruling them out as suspects rather than the product of any evidence suggesting their involvement.


Another brother of bin Laden, Abdullah M. bin Laden, is a 1994 graduate of Harvard Law School and lives in Cambridge. He did not return telephone messages left at his home.


There are several bin Laden relatives attending college in Boston and other parts of New England. Earlier this week, Faisal bin Laden, Osama bin Laden's nephew, left the University of New Hampshire, where he is a freshman. But he told friends he planned to return to the Durham campus, sources said.


The Saudi government is worried about an anti-Arab backlash against its citizens. Those concerns are heightened because many of the 19 hijackers used either Saudi passports or affiliations with the Saudi national airline, Saudi Arabian Airlines, to gain entry to the United States and access to the flight schools.


The Saudi government, one of the staunchest Arab allies of the United States, stopped sending its citizens to the United States for medical treatment after last week's attack. One diplomat said a Saudi citizen with the same name as one of the hijackers called him in tears from his hospital bed yesterday, saying he feared for his life.


"It's terribly sad," the diplomat said.


The Saudi diplomat said his government had advised Saudi citizens, including some 3,000 students attending universities and medical schools around the United States, to be vigilant against possible retaliatory violence.


A 20-year-old Saudi man who is studying at Boston University was stabbed early Sunday morning outside a Back Bay nightclub, Club Nicole, at the Back Bay Hilton. His wounds were not life-threatening, police said. Police are trying to determine whether the attack was motivated because of the victim's nationality.


The Saudi diplomat said that while his government and the FBI had advised the bin Ladens to return home for their safety, they had not recommended that other Saudis return home.


"We have advised our citizens to be careful, but to go on with their lives," he said. "We told them to use common sense, to avoid bars. Don't go to areas where people might get rowdy."


He said the Boston knife attack was the only case the embassy knows of violence directed at Saudis, but there have been reports of verbal assaults across the nation.


In addition, the Saudi diplomat said three Saudi citizens were briefly detained last week after a high-profile storming of a hotel room at the Copley Place Westin Hotel. He said police went to the hotel after one of the Saudis used a credit card to rent a car at the hotel. The name on the card was Attar, which was similar to the name of Mohamed Atta, the man who authorities believe was the ringleader of the Boston hijackers.


The three Saudis, who were released after the FBI interviewed them, have retained a lawyer and are well-connected: They are relatives of the Saudi health minister and the Saudi ambassador to the United Nations, according to a Saudi diplomat.

Return to the home page

of The Boston Globe Online

© Copyright 2003 New York Times Company

Pages