No, laws are not always morally right and we can both agree that slavery was immoral, but I am failing to understand why you think the immigration laws are immoral.
-- Think about it, and ask if your ancestors would have made it into the United States had the same laws been in place at the time they entered.
Mine would as they did not hop a fence or cross the Rio Grande river at night.
I have no problem with immigration as long as it is done LEGALLY.
I have a major problem with illegal immigration and am a supporter of Pat Buchannan's idea to seal our borders with the assistance of the military, especially in today's day and age.
There's an awful lot of emotional hype in the OP and just how much is reality would be difficult to say. Because of the hype and the rhetoric, it pushed my "be wary" button. I am not endorsing wide open borders. Neither am I endorsing the closed mindset of the OP.
There are times when the bureaucratic types (like the INS) go to extremes. The plethora of paper work and legal records of this, that, and the other thing seem pointless sometimes. I have wondered--if there's no birth certificate or paperwork, can one actually exist? In case you hadn't noticed yet, I'm being very tongue in cheek.
"Won't you let me in, immigration man, I won't toe the line today, I can't see it anyway". By any chance do you remember that song? Something about the immigration form "big enough to keep me warm, when the cold wind's blowing".
Here's my logic. If you go back and look at our history, you will find that this latest fear about immigrants, illegal or otherwise, is not really new. At a number of points in our nation's history, a wave of immigrants came in. The Irish came at the time of the Potato Famine, Germans came in at the time of wars and religious persecution, and the same has been true for a number of other peoples and times. With each wave, there were resentments of the jobs and resources that the immigrants would consume. The newcomers didn't talk, act, look or have cultural practices like the more established. Racial and ethnic tensions were severe. People felt threatened and did stupid and hateful stuff (nothing new there!).
Now, let's pretend that those who felt threatened were able to get laws on the books to keep new immigrants out or at least greatly restrict the flow. A reduced flow would mean that those who were desperate to settle here would be forced to become illegal immigrants. I haven't done my homework to see just how restrictive current immigration laws are but it wouldn't surprise me if John Ashcroft succeeded in affecting quotas with the Patriot Act (another hoot).
So it's possible that we have laws and punishments because people feel threatened--without basis. Threat and fear do not engender logical or moral behavior. Paranoia is not conducive to the sort of principles that are engraved on the Statue of Liberty. Betcha the Team America PAC would not concur with these words:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
I read the Team America list and heard the voices of the past prejudices and fears, coming to life and hissing their old poisonous message. Read it again and see if you don't hear it too.
I work as a volunteer with an "open-door" adult ESL program through the local community college. There are Latinos, Ukrainians, Vietnamese, Filipinos, and Germans. They want to live here, learn our language and our customs. I don't ask if they're "illegal" or not. Their children will speak English fluently, maybe even be bilingual, and will probably settle here in the United States, become employed, pay taxes, and enrich our nation with their lives. I don't make the assumption that those of us who live here without immigrating (legally or not) are somehow innately more gifted to contribute to the American Dream than those who have just arrived. Guess I just don't feel as threatened.
>"With each wave, there were resentments of the jobs and resources that the immigrants would consume. The newcomers didn't talk, act, look or have cultural practices like the more established. Racial and ethnic tensions were severe."<
Classes for foreigners hoping to become US citizens are required to help quell this sort of disillusion from the past. My husband worked with a gentleman who was a new citizen, Pakistani by birth. His classes apprently even included the use of toilet paper (no, Mudaseir did not know what toilet paper was used for when he came here). This is now the process of at least trying to give new immigrants a general roadmap of how to function amongst the general American population. True, many Americans couldn't understand his cultural practices, like having a fiancee in Pakistan that he'd never even laid eyes on (eventually, much to his parents dismay, he refused any sort of arranged marriage...guess we Americans corrupted him finally! :-O ), sent the majority of his paycheck back to Pakistan in addition to generally different religious practices. Mudaseir gained his citizenship here by proving that he had employment here, though, and as far as I know, didn't find the process unjust.
>"A reduced flow would mean that those who were desperate to settle here would be forced to become illegal immigrants."<
We haven't sealed off borders or cracked down real hard on immigration laws, yet there is still a large presence of illegal aliens within our borders.
"The INS estimates that the total unauthorized immigrant population residing in the United States in January 2000 was 7.0 million. The total population estimates presented here are somewhat higher than INS’ previous estimates. In its last set of estimates, INS estimated that the population was 5.0 million in October 1996; the new estimates produced a total of about 5.8 million for the same date. Estimated population growth was variable in the 1990s; on average, however, the population grew by about 350,000 per year from 1990 to 1999, about 75,000 higher than INS’ previous annual estimate of 275,000 for the 1990s.
In addition to the total population, estimates were compiled for each State of residence and for 75 countries of origin (Tables 1 and 2). As expected, California is estimated to have the most unauthorized residents in January 2000, about 2.2 million, or 32 percent of the national total. The States with the largest numerical increases in unauthorized population in the 1990s were California, Texas, Illinois, Arizona, Georgia, and North Carolina.
Mexico is the largest source country for unauthorized immigration to the United States. The estimated unauthorized resident population from Mexico increased from about 2.0 million in 1990 to 4.8 million in January 2000. Mexico’s share of the total unauthorized resident population increased from 58 percent in 1990 to 69 percent in 2000. In addition to Mexico, six countries had more than 100,000 unauthorized residents in the United States in January 2000 --El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, and Ecuador."
While, out of the current population estimate, the percentage of illegal immigrants is only roughly 2.5% of our population, this would be 7 million people who are not under temporary work visas, or any sort of other documentation that makes them legal to work and live in our country. I think that's a problem. If we at least make an effort to patrol our borders to help keep people from sneaking in, then maybe we can reduce this number.
"I work as a volunteer with an "open-door" adult ESL program through the local community college. There are Latinos, Ukrainians, Vietnamese, Filipinos, and Germans. They want to live here, learn our language and our customs. I don't ask if they're "illegal" or not. "
These people MAY NOT be illegal for all I know, but what I do know is that even though you volunteer for this program, public funding from somewhere is going to support this program, and if these people are illegaly in our country, they are usurping dollars paid by US citizens meant to benefit US citizens.
People want to know that they're tax dollars are going to state and federally funded programs that provide for people legitimately in need....otherwise I wouldn't have to provide copies of my federal tax returns to the government or my school in order to receive my Pell grant. Someone who needed the money would feel pretty cheated if I didn't have to prove financial hardship, but got that grant anyhow. Do you see what I'm getting at?
Yep, I see what you're getting at. You want your fair share of the American pie and any sticky fingered illegal immigrants have far less right to it than you. Hmmmm. Makes you look a bit petty.
You are also being a bit short sighted to seemingly disregard the contributions those immigrants and their children would make in the future. Also, the idea that cash only economy is limited to illegal immigrants is another misconception. That happens quite a bit at the lower middle class level.
"Yep, I see what you're getting at. You want your fair share of the American pie and any sticky fingered illegal immigrants have far less right to it than you. Hmmmm. Makes you look a bit petty."
It has far less to do with "my fair share of the American pie" and far more to do with all *Americans'* fair share of the pie. Quite frankly, I think illegals working and living in this country is unfair to those who *did* go through the process to become an American on paper. They've "done the work", they have *every* right to reap the benefits. If someone won't even do what needs to be done to be part of this country, what does this country owe them?
"You are also being a bit short sighted to seemingly disregard the contributions those immigrants and their children would make in the future."
I still don't see what's stopping them from gaining permanent status as a resident here...
"Also, the idea that cash only economy is limited to illegal immigrants is another misconception. That happens quite a bit at the lower middle class level. "
But the difference here is, that as American citizens we are subject to audits and IRS investigations that determine that our quality of lifestyle exceeds any amount of money we made/reported on our tax returns....you know what they say, "nothing is certain 'cept death and taxes."
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No, laws are not always morally right and we can both agree that slavery was immoral, but I am failing to understand why you think the immigration laws are immoral.
Mine would as they did not hop a fence or cross the Rio Grande river at night.
I have no problem with immigration as long as it is done LEGALLY.
I have a major problem with illegal immigration and am a supporter of Pat Buchannan's idea to seal our borders with the assistance of the military, especially in today's day and age.
There are times when the bureaucratic types (like the INS) go to extremes. The plethora of paper work and legal records of this, that, and the other thing seem pointless sometimes. I have wondered--if there's no birth certificate or paperwork, can one actually exist? In case you hadn't noticed yet, I'm being very tongue in cheek.
"Won't you let me in, immigration man, I won't toe the line today, I can't see it anyway". By any chance do you remember that song? Something about the immigration form "big enough to keep me warm, when the cold wind's blowing".
Gettingahandle
Ignorance is Nature's most abundant fuel for decision making.
Now, let's pretend that those who felt threatened were able to get laws on the books to keep new immigrants out or at least greatly restrict the flow. A reduced flow would mean that those who were desperate to settle here would be forced to become illegal immigrants. I haven't done my homework to see just how restrictive current immigration laws are but it wouldn't surprise me if John Ashcroft succeeded in affecting quotas with the Patriot Act (another hoot).
So it's possible that we have laws and punishments because people feel threatened--without basis. Threat and fear do not engender logical or moral behavior. Paranoia is not conducive to the sort of principles that are engraved on the Statue of Liberty. Betcha the Team America PAC would not concur with these words:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
I read the Team America list and heard the voices of the past prejudices and fears, coming to life and hissing their old poisonous message. Read it again and see if you don't hear it too.
Gettingahandle
Ignorance is Nature's most abundant fuel for decision making.
Gettingahandle
Ignorance is Nature's most abundant fuel for decision making.
Classes for foreigners hoping to become US citizens are required to help quell this sort of disillusion from the past. My husband worked with a gentleman who was a new citizen, Pakistani by birth. His classes apprently even included the use of toilet paper (no, Mudaseir did not know what toilet paper was used for when he came here). This is now the process of at least trying to give new immigrants a general roadmap of how to function amongst the general American population. True, many Americans couldn't understand his cultural practices, like having a fiancee in Pakistan that he'd never even laid eyes on (eventually, much to his parents dismay, he refused any sort of arranged marriage...guess we Americans corrupted him finally! :-O ), sent the majority of his paycheck back to Pakistan in addition to generally different religious practices. Mudaseir gained his citizenship here by proving that he had employment here, though, and as far as I know, didn't find the process unjust.
>"A reduced flow would mean that those who were desperate to settle here would be forced to become illegal immigrants."<
We haven't sealed off borders or cracked down real hard on immigration laws, yet there is still a large presence of illegal aliens within our borders.
"The INS estimates that the total unauthorized immigrant population residing in the United States in January 2000 was 7.0 million. The total population estimates presented here are somewhat higher than INS’ previous estimates. In its last set of estimates, INS estimated that the population was 5.0 million in October 1996; the new estimates produced a total of about 5.8 million for the same date. Estimated population growth was variable in the 1990s; on average, however, the population grew by about 350,000 per year from 1990 to 1999, about 75,000 higher than INS’ previous annual estimate of 275,000 for the 1990s.
In addition to the total population, estimates were compiled for each State of residence and for 75 countries of origin (Tables 1 and 2). As expected, California is estimated to have the most unauthorized residents in January 2000, about 2.2 million, or 32 percent of the national total. The States with the largest numerical increases in unauthorized population in the 1990s were California, Texas, Illinois, Arizona, Georgia, and North Carolina.
Mexico is the largest source country for unauthorized immigration to the United States. The estimated unauthorized resident population from Mexico increased from about 2.0 million in 1990 to 4.8 million in January 2000. Mexico’s share of the total unauthorized resident population increased from 58 percent in 1990 to 69 percent in 2000. In addition to Mexico, six countries had more than 100,000 unauthorized residents in the United States in January 2000 --El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, and Ecuador."
http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/Ill_Report_1211.pdf
"The United States was home to 290,809,777 residents on July 1, 2003."
http://eire.census.gov/popest/data/national/popbriefing.php
While, out of the current population estimate, the percentage of illegal immigrants is only roughly 2.5% of our population, this would be 7 million people who are not under temporary work visas, or any sort of other documentation that makes them legal to work and live in our country. I think that's a problem. If we at least make an effort to patrol our borders to help keep people from sneaking in, then maybe we can reduce this number.
These people MAY NOT be illegal for all I know, but what I do know is that even though you volunteer for this program, public funding from somewhere is going to support this program, and if these people are illegaly in our country, they are usurping dollars paid by US citizens meant to benefit US citizens.
People want to know that they're tax dollars are going to state and federally funded programs that provide for people legitimately in need....otherwise I wouldn't have to provide copies of my federal tax returns to the government or my school in order to receive my Pell grant. Someone who needed the money would feel pretty cheated if I didn't have to prove financial hardship, but got that grant anyhow. Do you see what I'm getting at?
You are also being a bit short sighted to seemingly disregard the contributions those immigrants and their children would make in the future. Also, the idea that cash only economy is limited to illegal immigrants is another misconception. That happens quite a bit at the lower middle class level.
Gettingahandle
Ignorance is Nature's most abundant fuel for decision making.
It has far less to do with "my fair share of the American pie" and far more to do with all *Americans'* fair share of the pie. Quite frankly, I think illegals working and living in this country is unfair to those who *did* go through the process to become an American on paper. They've "done the work", they have *every* right to reap the benefits. If someone won't even do what needs to be done to be part of this country, what does this country owe them?
"You are also being a bit short sighted to seemingly disregard the contributions those immigrants and their children would make in the future."
I still don't see what's stopping them from gaining permanent status as a resident here...
"Also, the idea that cash only economy is limited to illegal immigrants is another misconception. That happens quite a bit at the lower middle class level. "
But the difference here is, that as American citizens we are subject to audits and IRS investigations that determine that our quality of lifestyle exceeds any amount of money we made/reported on our tax returns....you know what they say, "nothing is certain 'cept death and taxes."
Then crack down on the employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens.
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