THEY Can'ts HANDLE the Truth!

Avatar for mrsed4
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-22-2003
THEY Can'ts HANDLE the Truth!
54
Thu, 07-15-2004 - 9:30pm
Fla. Lawmaker Says 2000 Election 'Stolen'

By ALAN FRAM, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Think the passions from the 2000 presidential election have cooled? Certainly not in the House, which voted Thursday to strike a Florida representative's words from the record after she said Republicans "stole" that closely fought contest.

The verbal battle broke out after Rep. Steve Buyer, R-Ind., proposed a measure barring any federal official from requesting that the United Nations (news - web sites) formally observe the U.S. elections on Nov. 2.

Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Fla., and several other House Democrats have made that suggestion. They argue that some black voters were disenfranchised in 2000 and problems could occur again this fall.

"We welcome America to observe the integrity of our electoral process and we do not ask, though, for the United Nations to come as monitors at our polling stations," Buyer said.

"I come from Florida, where you and others participated in what I call the United States coup d'etat. We need to make sure it doesn't happen again," Brown said. "Over and over again after the election when you stole the election, you came back here and said, 'Get over it.' No, we're not going to get over it. And we want verification from the world."

At that point, Buyer demanded that Brown's words be "taken down," or removed the debate's permanent record.

The House's presiding officer, Rep. Mac Thornberry, R-Texas, ruled that Brown's words violated a House rule.

"Members should not accuse other members of committing a crime such as, quote, stealing, end quote, an election," Thornberry said.

When Brown objected to his ruling, the House voted 219-187 to strike her words.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=512&u=/ap/20040716/ap_on_go_co/house_florida_fight_1&printer=1

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-28-2003
Mon, 07-19-2004 - 3:41pm
The point of the paper trail is that the machine will print out and date stamp who you've voted for. Say a precinct sends in numbers of 55% Bush and 45% Kerry, but the precinct is 60% registered Democratic. Someone could get people in that precinct to send in copies of their paper ballot and actually count them, as well as verify who the machine said you voted for. There is hard evidence for whom you voted for. No system will be perfect, but there has to be some way to audit them.

On the upside, although it doesn't address this issue, Kerry is assembling a legal team to cover as many swing states as possible in case voter issues happen this year. Good move. Heard the UN turned down the request to monitor our elections.

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-03-2003
Mon, 07-19-2004 - 3:59pm
Here's a link with the pertinent information and the results according to the various counting methods employed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2000

It needs to be said again though that most of those methods being used in many counties were contrary to state law on the issue. According to the state of Florida, the only type of chad votes which were valid and countable were those where the chad was completely removed... not dimpled, not detached on one corner, not pregnant, etc.

It also needs to be said again that the USSC didn't appoint Bush. They basically said that the federal election deadlines had to observed, and that Florida Supreme Court had overstepped it's bounds and couldn't change the method of counting controversial ballots after they had been cast.

~mark~

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-03-2003
Mon, 07-19-2004 - 4:02pm
"Voter issues" *always* happen, in every year in many or most states. Some states in 2000 even had *worse* problems than Florida, but they didn't make the news as much simply because Florida ended up being the state everything hinged on.

~mark~

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Mon, 07-19-2004 - 5:40pm
I get the idea of what they are trying to do and ideally it would work… But, (not to sound too cynical) much like dimpled and pregnant ballots, I see much the same problems with the paper receipt. The paper ballot can not go directly into a box since the person voting would have to be able to see it and verify its’ accuracy. But once an individual gets it in their hands, we have a slew of other problems. I personally see voting booths with these paper receipts left in them by the previous voter or the voters not taking the receipts seriously and just dropping them on the floor or walking out of the polling place altogether. Maybe I am just too cynical. I just don’t see how we can prevent things like this from happening and once they do happen, one side or the other is going to cry ‘foul’.
iVillage Member
Registered: 06-16-2004
Tue, 07-20-2004 - 1:17pm
None of the UN's business? Wasn't the war in Iraq "justified" by enforcing UN resolutions? Can't use the UN as justification when it suits you, and not when it doesn't! UN has supervised other elections, when people from the country have asked for it, or it's deemed necessary. The US is not exempt from international law or the UN! Do policemen not also have to follow the law? Are judges excluded too? What a totally ludicrous concept!
iVillage Member
Registered: 04-03-2003
Tue, 07-20-2004 - 1:31pm
The electoral process in this country is none of the UN's business.

"Wasn't the war in Iraq "justified" by enforcing UN resolutions?"

Yes, though it's a somewhat different situation, since we haven't militarily invaded Canada or Mexico with the purpose of usurping their natural resources.

"Can't use the UN as justification when it suits you, and not when it doesn't!"

Radically different situations Lady. Sit back and consider the various aspects of those situations for a few moments and you'll see what I'm talking about.

"UN has supervised other elections, when people from the country have asked for it, or it's deemed necessary."

I'm not aware of the US government asking for such oversight, nor have I heard that the UN has deemed such oversight necessary.

"Do policemen not also have to follow the law? Are judges excluded too?"

Yes, police have to follow the law, judges as well though it's not unknown for them to create law as they go.

"What a totally ludicrous concept!"

Yes, comparing the US electoral process to Iraq and it's actions which brought down UN sanctions on it is completely ludicrous.

~mark~

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-16-2004
Tue, 07-20-2004 - 1:33pm
Yes, but once out of jail, these people are back to being citizens, and hopefully working and paying taxes. As tax payers, shouldn't they be able to also vote? Once one has finished a sentence, aren't we saying that these people have 'paid their dues'?

What is the point anyhow of denying them vote other than to exclude a certain group of people who are likely to vote a certain way? For most felons, it isn't exactly seen as a big 'punishment'... And those that would see it as punishment are exactly the ones who are now trying to become good citizens!!!

Are former felons also denied such things as Old Age Security and whatever other social programs are available to americans? If the intent was 'really' to punish felons, why not have these benefits go instead go to a fund that pays for their victims? That would be much more appropriate than excluding them from voting!

Not allowing them to own firearms, now that actually makes sense!

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-16-2004
Tue, 07-20-2004 - 1:42pm
You totally missed my point, which was that the US is not 'above' an UN action, or supervision or resolution, or whatever. If the criteria for getting the UN to supervise the elections is met, then the US will HAVE TO comply to it. PERIOD. It's not up to the incument government to request it!

Not sure however what the criteria is, but then again people are just saying NO to it no matter what, even if the criteria would be fully met! What would be the harm in having it supervised? After all, everyone was saying that about Saddam. If he wasn't allowing inspectors in, then that meant he had something to hide. Well.. right back at you!

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-18-2004
Tue, 07-20-2004 - 1:55pm

Hey Nicecanadianlady!


Welcome back to the board!

Miffy - Co-CL For The Politics Today Board

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-16-2004
Tue, 07-20-2004 - 2:00pm
Thanks... I was on a much needed mini-vacation. Taking advantage of my youngest one being away at camp.....