"Free" Health Care

Avatar for schifferle
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
"Free" Health Care
186
Wed, 07-21-2004 - 8:58am
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20040721.shtml

Free health care

Walter E. Williams

July 21, 2004


Let's start out by not quibbling with America's socialists' false claim that health-care service is a human right that people should have regardless of whether they can pay for it or not and that it should be free. Before we buy into this socialist agenda, we might check out just what happens when health-care services are "free." Let's look at our neighbor to the north -- Canada.

The Fraser Institute, a Vancouver, B.C.-based think tank, has done yeoman's work keeping track of Canada's socialized health-care system. It has just come out with its 13th annual waiting-list survey. It shows that the average time a patient waited between referral from a general practitioner to treatment rose from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02 to 17.7 weeks in 2003. Saskatchewan had the longest average waiting time of nearly 30 weeks, while Ontario had the shortest, 14 weeks.

Waiting lists also exist for diagnostic procedures such as computer tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and ultrasound. Depending on what province and the particular diagnostic procedure, the waiting times can range from two to 24 weeks.

As reported in a December 2003 story by Kerri Houston for the Frontiers of Freedom Institute titled "Access Denied: Canada's Healthcare System Turns Patients Into Victims," in some instances, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. Houston says that hip-replacement patients often end up non-ambulatory while waiting an average of 20 weeks for the procedure, and that's after having waited 13 weeks just to see the specialist. The wait to get diagnostic scans followed by the wait for the radiologist to read them just might explain why Cleveland, Ohio, has become Canada's hip-replacement center.

Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News (www.canoe.ca), about 10,000 doctors left Canada during the 1990s. Compounding the exodus of doctors is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Houston, Ontario has chosen to turn to nurses to replace its bolting doctors. It's "creating" 369 new positions for nurse practitioners to take up the slack for the doctor shortage.

Some patients avoided long waits for medical services by paying for private treatment. In 2003, the government of British Columbia enacted Bill 82, an "Amendment to Strengthen Legislation and Protect Patients." On its face, Bill 82 is to "protect patients from inadvertent billing errors." That's on its face. But according to a January 2004 article written by Nadeem Esmail for the Fraser Institute's Forum and titled "Oh to Be a Prisoner," Bill 82 would disallow anyone from paying the clinical fees for private surgery, where previously only the patients themselves were forbidden from doing so. The bill also gives the government the power to levy fines of up to $20,000 on physicians who accept these fees or allow such a practice to occur. That means it is now against Canadian law to opt out of the Canadian health-care system and pay for your own surgery.

Health care can have a zero price to the user, but that doesn't mean it's free or has a zero cost. The problem with a good or service having a zero price is that demand is going to exceed supply. When price isn't allowed to make demand equal supply, other measures must be taken. One way to distribute the demand over a given supply is through queuing -- making people wait. Another way is to have a medical czar who decides who is eligible, under what conditions, for a particular procedure -- for example, no hip replacement or renal dialysis for people over 70 or no heart transplants for smokers.

I'm wondering just how many Americans would like Canada's long waiting lists, medical czars deciding what treatments we get and an exodus of doctors.

Pages

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-24-2004
Sun, 08-22-2004 - 8:16pm
"If you have a right to health care, why not a right to a home? Why not a right to a warm coat in winter? Why not a right to groceries?"

Yes, Why not. Do you honestly believe that someone with more money then say any homeless, destitute person without money, somehow has more of a right to eat, have shelter, not freeze in winter, or get healthcare when they are sick or injured? If you believe that maybe you are the one who is sick.

Yes alot of people make their way to their place in life through hard work, and trial and error, but some are handed it on a silver plater. And yes some homeless put themselves in that situation, but plenty just had a lot of bad things happen to put them there. This doesn't mean that I with a $60,000 a year income have more of a right to basic human needs then any one else, and I would be completely inhumane to believe otherwise. As a matter of fact I would prefer to give a homeless person one of my coats, and beds while I go home, then to watch them freeze and sleep on the ground while I insist that I have more right to comfort and safety then they do.

Give me a break, just who do you think you are?

As for our health care system, yes it has many flaws. I'm sure Canada's isn't flawless either. The time it takes to get seen isn't all that short here either. I am pregnant and under an HMO through wich I have to get authorization to even see my OB dr. I called my new Primary care clinic in late March and was told I could not recieve authorization for OB until I come in. The closest apointment was not until June, just to get an authorization to see an OB. Luckily I'm also a Veteran and was able to go through the VA which is free. I came in that week they verified my pregnancy and I was aloud to go to any OB I wanted for free. I got to see the ob in a week rather than waiting 3 months just to get an authorization, which I would have had to do was I not able to use free care through the VA.

That is another point, not all free care is all that bad. I wait much less time for my free VA care then I do for most of my civilian care. Although I've been to one of those government clinics with my sister when she was pregnant and she had to wait for hours to get seen even with an apointment, and once was even turned away when the wait took so long that it past their work hours.

Sorry this was so long. I just had to put in my 2 cents on the subject, and your post.

I think free health care should be allowed, but if you want to pay for care that should be allowed also.

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-24-2004
Sun, 08-22-2004 - 9:17pm
"$400 a month is about right, and it isn't too much to pay for healthcare. The problem in the US isn't lack of healthcare, it's that healthcare costs money and many don't like paying what it costs."

$400 a month is too much for health care. He still has to pay for groceries, transportation to and from work, and anywere else he need go, home or rent, clothing, tax etc. There are plenty of places that rent on a crudy apartment can run $1000, food another $200, transportation depends on if you take a cab, bus, train, or have a car but none of those are cheap. Then tax takes out 15% on federal, plus another portion for social and medicare. Let's not forget insurance, less you'll be up a creek should anything happen to home or car. Do you think that will leave $400 after these amounts are taken from his aproximately $1833/month pay I highly doubt it.

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2004
Sun, 08-22-2004 - 9:45pm
Welcome psychomutt!

Renee ~~~

Renee ~~~

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-07-2004
Sun, 08-22-2004 - 9:45pm
Ah but he didn't have that $1833.00 per mo. income anymore when I met him. Remember, he lost his job once he got sick.

But then again, I have been told that his story cannot be true, it just doesn't fit with the extensive knowledge & experience of someone else here on the board who knows much more about these things than I do, supposedly.

<< "$400 a month is about right, and it isn't too much to pay for healthcare. The problem in the US isn't lack of healthcare, it's that healthcare costs money and many don't like paying what it costs." >>

< $400 a month is too much for health care. He still has to pay for groceries, transportation to and from work, and anywere else he need go, home or rent, clothing, tax etc. There are plenty of places that rent on a crudy apartment can run $1000, food another $200, transportation depends on if you take a cab, bus, train, or have a car but none of those are cheap. Then tax takes out 15% on federal, plus another portion for social and medicare. Let's not forget insurance, less you'll be up a creek should anything happen to home or car. Do you think that will leave $400 after these amounts are taken from his aproximately $1833/month pay I highly doubt it.>

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-24-2004
Sun, 08-22-2004 - 10:12pm
"When people get something for "free" they tend to abuse it. Look at salad bars and all you can eat buffets. When people don't have to pay anything for healthcare, they will run to the doctor for a sniffle. Look at the people in the emergency rooms that don't have to pay."

You would think this idea is correct, but I don't agree. Both my husband and I can get free care through the VA because of our pior service and dissability. I ussually go in for my annual checkup, and if they ask me to come back I do. I don't run there with every sniffle, backache, stubed toe, etc. My husband probably doesn't even go in once a year. Its free, it's even decent care, but I and most people don't like to go to get medical care if they don't need it. The other free system in the US I feel is very sub-par and I would definately not go out of my way to get care from any of our "free clinics" just because it's free.

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2004
Sun, 08-22-2004 - 10:21pm

Brian Lee Crowley:


"Let’s talk about infant mortality for African-American babies vs. Canadian babies. Infant mortality risk is a function of birth-weight, with the risk of death rising as the birth weight falls. Now over the full range of low birth-weights (i.e. any birth-weight below 2500 grams), African-American babies fare better than Canadian babies, except at the very top end of the range, where they are essentially equal. In short, among low birth-weight babies, it is safer to be born to an African-American family than it is to be born to the average Canadian family. "


http://www.mackinac.org/article.asp?ID=5864


Brian Lee Crowley is the founding President of the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies www.aims.ca, located in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Crowley is co-author of two Sir Antony Fisher Award-winning projects on the Canadian health care system. In recognition of his health care work, he was named to the the most influential provincial health care inquiry in Canada, the Mazankowski Committee. Former Canadian Deupty Prime Minister Don Mazankowski called Crowley the "intellectual architect" of the committee's report.

Renee ~~~

Renee ~~~

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-24-2004
Sun, 08-22-2004 - 11:14pm
"If you want me to buy this senario, you're going to have to give me a resonable explanation of how an unskilled uneducated worker winds up with a job making at least $6,000 more than than his background warrants and in twenty years parlays that same job into a deadend that hasn't even managed to keep up with inflation."

A few years ago I would have thought the same thing, but now I have met people in similar situations it doesn't sound far fetched at all. I don't know what anual income was 20 yrs ago but 10 years ago I was excited to get offered a position for just over 20000 which I considered a lot more then most of my friends were making. I still know many people that make no more then 20000 which sucks, cause that is no living in the real world. Anyway I have a father in law who has an electronics degree, but because of the area he lives in he makes very little compared to most in his field and rarely gets an increase resulting in his pay changing very little in the last 20 years. This happens in areas that don't have a lot of jobs or job expansion. I have 2 uncles in FL in construction, they have both been with the same companies for a long time and got in the 20's but had little change in pay the entire time they have been in until the last couple years. That's even though they were above several people. Luckily the last 2 years new rules were established in these companies and both have recieved significant pay raises and benifit increases recently. I also have a father who use to get paid farely well in his original job, but has since been laid off. He lives in WA and after he got laid off Boing shut down there main company there puting alot of others in my dads line of work out of a job and flooding those jobs. Now my dad does handyman work and took a severe pay cut because of this. There are alot of things that can happen to cause money problems like this and for job outlook to be not so good. There's alot of things to make people think twice about trying to find other work when the remaining work may not even pay as well as what you left behind. Top that off alot of jobs that would pay that little don't offer insurance coverage, so you can't always just go look for a job with less money that offers medical.



iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2004
Mon, 08-23-2004 - 12:14am

I don't think you realize the cumulative effect of inflation over 2 decades. Inflation does vary somewhat regionally, but nowhere near the degree to make the original senario believable.


$18,000 in 1984 is $32,800 current dollars. $22,000 current dollars would have been half that in 1984 which is close to my estimate. It simply doesn't add up that a well paying job of $18,000 in 1984 (which he evidently wasn't anywhere near qualified to hold), twenty years later pays $22,000. The guy's standard of living would have been cut in half, and before that happened he certainly would have

Renee ~~~

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-24-2004
Mon, 08-23-2004 - 12:21am
Thank you for the welcome. I don't get on boards like this too often, but when I do I tend to get a bit carried away. I find peoples opinion very interesting,and I have to look at almost every post, then I have to put my opinion in. Which is usually long after the subject had been talked about. But oh well, it let's me see what others have to say and then vent how I feel about it. Unfortunately I don't keep trac of what I was looking at and usually don't return. Maybe I'll try to come back to this one, since I think the issues for the presidency are very important at present.

Buy the way my stand on healthcare is that although I have good coverage, dr's etc. I know the system is messed up and alot of people aren't in my boat. I would like some slow gradual changes that won't kill our pockets, or explode the national debt. Just what changes I'm not real sure. I honestly have heard of several countries that healthcare is covered for all, and though some of it sounds messed up, I still think it sounds better then our system. I guess I would like something that dabbles in these areas but is more flexible. I can't see making everyone use gov. healthcare, but I don't like the hold that the insurance companies have.

I have had to change my dr 3 times because of insurance changes in coverage, and I had to change hospitals in my last pregnancy because of an insurance company change. My rates went up after the company changed and my options for care providers are more limited, and it seems as though they keep taking people off the list of covered providers. I'm under an HMO buy the way, with the old company we had the same premiums and lower copays, and could see whomever I liked under a PPO. It's more agravating to me, but for others some of the insurance problems are unreasonable. There are alot of people that are in jobs that don't offer coverage or to get it they have to pay hundreds that they can't afford. Medicaid isn't available for everyone that can't afford health care, you have to fit there financial peramiters. Alot of people I know on medicaid never had a real job in the first place, and if they did it wasn't enough to live off.

I went through a whole load of stuff whith my sis. She was living with(off) me, got pregnant and her hubby couldn't get a decent job, or even keep the crudy ones he got. So she had to use the system, which was anoying to me. Lonnnnggggg waits, crowded clinics, apointments for everything yet still long waits, and top that off my knucle head sis gets pregnant again less then 6 wks after the first. Believe me we tried to explain the importance of birthcontrol, and taking care of money before having a kid, being able to take care of yourself, etc. She was just gonna do her own thing and forget what everyone said. I think what really made me mad about it was she swore she would use birthcontrol, and she wasn't even suppose to be having sex yet when she got pregnant. There I go airing dirty laundry, it's just agravating that I have a sister who has no problem with spunging off the system, and wont try to fix her problems. Her hubby did fix his job problem buy geting back in the army, but now they spunge off that system and complain about lack of money, because they spend it all. I kinda hope he stay's in cause he's to irresponsible to make sure he looks for a decent job and saves up money before he gets out.

OK I'll shut up now. Sorry for running on, and on, an on.

Venus

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-24-2004
Mon, 08-23-2004 - 12:36am
There are some jobs for unskilled labor that are considered dangerouse that make pretty good money, just because alot of people won't do them otherwise. So even though the 18000 was pretty good then, he could have been in one of those jobs that pay well because they are dangerouse.

I was a wire and cable installer in the army, and could have gotten into some of those jobs for quite a bit of money, and no education. Fortunately I was injured and my dr didn't even like that I was running newspapers at the time. Now I'm going to school, because the old job would cause severe increase in my current medical problems.

Buy the way I love school all though I probably go a little overboard with trying to keep good grades and stuff. I think it get's in the way of my family life, cause I keep myself soo busy. I'm off now because of being pregnant, but I'll be starting again this spring.

Venus

Pages