Smear Starts at White House

Avatar for car_al
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Smear Starts at White House
105
Tue, 08-24-2004 - 5:26am
Everyone I know (Republican, Democrat & Independent) thinks that the anti-Kerry smear campaign on his Vietnam War record began at the White House. Not a person, I know, believes the administration denials.

Does that matter? I think it does!

C

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iVillage Member
Registered: 08-07-2004
Tue, 08-24-2004 - 5:57pm
There is a big difference between honest criticism and smears.

Many people consider Bush to have made a superficial analysis of foreign affairs and then made foolhardy choices. It is fair & correct to discuss & criticise Bush & his performance. How else can we decide if we want 4 more years with Bush?

The attacks on Kerry are not simply a discussion & criticism of his career. His military record is being picked apart with a fine tooth comb. But Bush's military record raises a few questions too, yet his choices & his records seem to be getting overlooked.

< President Bush has been smeared and bashed every single day from the media (especially the press), from liberals accusing him of everything from stealing the election to planning the 9/11 attacks, from 527 groups, from John Kerry himself, in Michael Moore's movie, etc., etc. But now the Dems have the nerve to say that smear starts the White House? >

Avatar for car_al
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Tue, 08-24-2004 - 6:00pm
<< My response was to your claim that <<"the anti-Kerry smear campaign on his Vietnam War record began at the White House">>, which it didn't.>>

Perhaps Sen. John McCain’s comments will show you just one instance, which reinforces our belief in the White House ties to the ad.

Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

"It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/kerry.mccain.ap/

These smear tactics being used against Kerry are exactly like the tactics used by the Bush campaign against Max Cleland and John McCain.

As far as most of the media, here and abroad, I think they ratchet up anything that seems controversial.

C

OT – As an insomniac, I’m often checking out the boards just as you are posting – although I’ve been away for several weeks (much needed R&R) – so I usually read your posts first and when I can – I do have a day job – I respond A.S.A.P.

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-16-2004
Wed, 08-25-2004 - 11:03am
Yes I did....did you?

Where is his proof that he actually witnessed these attrocities, and if he did, why didnt he report them up the chain of command.

As an officer he should have known it was his duty to do so, and since he did not, he should have been courtmartialed.

If he himself did committ attroticities, then why is he a sitting Senator, instead of serving time in prison for committing war crimes?

Why is he now changing his tune to say that he said things when he was a younger man, that perhaps he should not have said, but it was an emotional time.

Again, Kerry pulls his gun, and shoots himself in the foot. (does he get a purple heart for that?)

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-16-2004
Thu, 08-26-2004 - 11:21am
-- The attacks on Kerry are not simply a discussion & criticism of his career. His military record is being picked apart with a fine tooth comb. But Bush's military record raises a few questions too, yet his choices & his records seem to be getting overlooked.

Well I dont think that the military record is an issue for me, but Kerry does absolutely nothing to enahance his credibility when something that he claims as a fact, and is seared into his memory, suddenly needs to be amended because another party has come forward with their version of the story.

If Kerry's memory and records are so perfect, then why all of the backtracking on his behalf??????

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-23-2004
Thu, 08-26-2004 - 2:16pm
Well, here's one person who doesn't believe it. Now you know one. There is absolutely NO evidence that any of this originated in the White House, so anyone who believes that simply is believing what they want to believe. Obviously these veterans are motivated by Kerry's anti-war testimony, no question, and many of them support George Bush because of it, but that certainly doesn't mean they were put up to this by the administration. Question though-the president has said he believes Kerry served honorably. Kerry, on the other hand, jumped right in alongside Bush's critics, demanding that Bush answer accusations about HIS military service-it came straight from Kerry's mouth, but I don't hear anyone complaining about those "smears". Yet when other veterans question Kerry's version of events, it's a White House smear campaign. Incredible.
iVillage Member
Registered: 02-23-2004
Thu, 08-26-2004 - 2:21pm


And it is fair and correct for veterans who served alongside Kerry in Vietnam to be allowed to voice their opinion of his qualifications to lead, based on their personal experience of his leadership abilities. What the heck ever happened to free speech? Kerry is certainly free to refute whatever these people say with facts, why do so many people want these men, who also served and were decorated just like Kerry was, silenced?

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 08-26-2004 - 3:41pm
As far as I can see, the first "smear" was:

The issue here, as I have heard it raised, is was he present and active on duty in Alabama at the times he was supposed to be. . . . Just because you get an honorable discharge does not in fact answer that question.

Djie

Avatar for car_al
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Fri, 08-27-2004 - 12:20am
I think the evidence, although circumstantial, is pretty convincing, please read my post #3743.11 above to Shesmymom.

C

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-23-2004
Fri, 08-27-2004 - 12:40am
I did read that post, can you point me to the evidence that President Bush had anything to do with the swiftboat ads? While you're at it, can you point me to the evidence that he had anything to do with the McCain ads mentioned in the article? The article you posted says that Bush supporters started a rumor campaign, it says nothing about Bush having anything to do with or approving of the rumor campaign. In fact, the article even has McCain quoted as saying he doesn't believe the president has anything to do with the ads, so again, where's the evidence?
Avatar for car_al
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Fri, 08-27-2004 - 1:44am
Your first Kerry quote seems to be in answer to a question posed to him and he is stating that questions had been raised about the president's actual presence, when he was on active duty in Alabama. Why would his re-iterating a question be a smear?

The Swift Boat ads are trying, by any means, to discredit the actual service that Kerry gave in Vietnam and they are beginning to draw a backlash - and rightly so.

Here's a rebuttal from the man, who rescued Thurlow while bullets were flying:

Swift boat memories

Eagle Point vet who was there backs Kerry’s assertion that bullets were flying the day he won two medals on a river in Vietnam

By PAUL FATTIG

Mail Tribune



Robert E. Lambert doesn’t plan to vote for John Kerry.

But the Eagle Point man challenges claims by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that there was no enemy fire aimed at the five swift boats, including the one commanded by Kerry, on March 13, 1969 on the Bay Hap River in the southern tip of what was then South Vietnam.

Lambert, now 64, was a crew member on swift boat PCF-51 that day. The boat was commanded by Navy Lt. Larry Thurlow, a now-retired officer who questions why Kerry was awarded a Bronze star for bravery and a third Purple Heart for the March 13 incident.

"He and another officer now say we weren’t under fire at that time," Lambert said Wednesday afternoon. "Well, I sure was under the impression we were."

Lambert’s Bronze Star medal citation for the incident praises his courage under fire in the aftermath of a mine explosion that rocked another swift boat on that day 35 years ago.

"Anytime you are blown out of the water like that, they always follow that up with small arms fire," he said.

Lambert contacted the Mail Tribune after reading a lengthy article from the Washington Post examining the controversy. That article, carried in the Tribune, indicated that Lambert was a witness to the event but declined to comment.

Although noting he was never contacted by the Post, Lambert stressed that he believes the swift boat controversy has no place in the presidential election.

"This is being blown out of proportion," he said. "It’s absolutely unnecessary and irrelevant, as far as I’m concerned. All of this is nothing but a distraction. It doesn’t have anything to do with what is going on today."

A registered independent, Lambert said the presidential debate ought to be on the future, not the past.

"They should be focused on our exit strategy from Iraq," he said.

Lambert does take issue with Kerry’s opposition to the Vietnam War once he returned to the states.

"That was absolutely reprehensible but, there again, I’m career military," said Lambert who retired from the Navy as a chief petty officer after 22 years of service.

Nor does he have much time for the debate over who wrote the medal citations. Thurlow says his citation for a Bronze Star, which states the boats were being fired upon, was based on an initial report written by Kerry.

Lambert doesn’t know who wrote the documents.

"They took what everybody said after they got in, piled it altogether and shipped it off and somebody wrote that, either at the division level, squadron level or commander of naval forces, Vietnam level," Lambert said. "They decided what kind of medal was going to be put on it.

"Mine was for pulling Lt. Thurlow out of the river while we were under fire," he said.

Lambert, whose stout arms sport tattoos he picked up in the Navy, was already an "old salt" by 1969. He had joined the Navy right after graduating in 1957 from high in Chino, Calif.

Altogether, he would serve three tours in Vietnam, including a year on a mine sweeper.

In 1969, he was on his second swift boat tour. Among his duties, he helped train the officers in charge of the swift boats. He did not train Kerry.

"When they brought a new crew into country, they broke the crew apart, put each man on a different boat," he said. "Even though I was only a petty officer first class, I trained the officer in charge. When we all decided the officer and crew was ready, we put them back together and gave them a boat."

Lambert has a photo album of swift boats, including several shots of Kerry’s PCF-94, although he doesn’t recall ever having met Kerry. One of his photographs of Kerry’s boat was taken on the morning of March 13, 1969, he added.

He flipped to a photograph of a bullet hole in the side of his swift boat — PCF-51.

"That’s the bullet hole they keep talking about that they got the day before in the 51 boat — that was my purple heart," he said, noting he was hit on the upper left arm.

"When those bullets hit that aluminum, it was like hitting glass," he added. "There was shrapnel everywhere."

His photographs include swift boats riddled from AK-47 rifle rounds and larger holes from rocket blasts.

Lambert said that while he disagrees with Thurlow over whether they were being fired at that day, he and the crew liked and respected him.

"He was an excellent officer," he said. "The man was absolutely professional all the way. I would have went anywhere with him, he was that good.

"But I can understand why Thurlow doesn’t like Kerry — these people did a year in Vietnam, not four months," he said later.

The five swift boats were operating off U.S. Coast Guard cutters farther out in the bay on March 13. The swift boats had dropped off a load of Chinese mercenaries and American Special Forces. The mission of the ground forces was to push the enemy out of the jungle and onto the beach, where the swift boat crews were ready to pounce with their .50-caliber machine guns and other weapons.

According to Kerry’s Bronze Star citation, he was awarded the medal for rescuing Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off his swift boat. Rassmann, who lives in Florence, has repeatedly stated the boats were under fire.

"We were done with our OPs and on the way back out to sea," Lambert recalled. "We were exiting the river. Kerry’s boat went through, then the 43 boat."

Then PCF-3 hit a mine.

"The mine was right underneath it, just lifted it right out of the water," he said.

The six-member crew was stunned and shaken by the blast; the boat was running free.

"It was running wide open — we were all running wide open, trying to get out of there," he said.

But while PCF-3 was running at full throttle, there was no one at the helm.

Thurlow pulled his boat up along the PCF-3 boat and told Lambert to take control of the PCF-51 boat, Lambert said.

"Everybody was shooting back," he said. "After my boat officer (Thurlow) jumped on the 3 boat, he was looking at people (the crew). His boat hit a sandbar and he was knocked overboard. So we went in and got him out."

Lambert, who reached down to help Thurlow aboard, was awarded the Bronze Star for his "courage under fire," according to his citation.

"We went right back to the 3 boat and he (Thurlow) went back on the boat," he said. "We got the 3 boat off the sandbar, got a boat tied to each side of it and down the river we went."

Reach reporter Paul Fattig at 776-4496 or e-mail him at pfattig@mailtribune.com

You can find this story online at:

http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2004/0826/local/stories/01local.htm

(O.T. I've tried that, but not much help. I've taken to trying to be productive - not sure time on the boards actually qualifies ;-). No, I haven't listened to "Insomnia"- I'm a classical music buff - but I will. Yes thanks; the R&R was great!)

C

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