Debate reflections...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-24-2003
Debate reflections...
120
Fri, 10-08-2004 - 10:54pm
I'll be brief... Bush did not look like he wished to be elsewhere tonight. Beyond that, Kerry again wins. An incumbent should have an advantage; they live the issues daily. Kerry clearly bested him on so many things. Bush also showed arrogance by talking over Charles Gibson.

Bush is in deep doo doo.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-24-2003
Sun, 10-10-2004 - 1:07pm
I don't see Kerry trying to rush things, nor do any of us wish to. I grew up in an America we believed, however naively, stood on the side of right. Yet we did not pick fights... we were strong, but we were purely defensive... attack us and you will pay. 11 September changed that. I'm not at all comfortable with us attacking countries, no matter how dispicable their leadership, without international support. Yeah some countries are involved... that is not international support. As this idea to attack Iraq first surfaced in early 2002, I'd mention it and few wished to talk on it, they thought the idea far fetched. And as it went from rumour to likely, we watched as they tried to force the hand of those in the House and Senate, and in the UN... they worked for weeks trying to word an ambiguous resolution, because most countries were opposed to war. They wished to put pressure on Saddam, but also did not wish to seem supportive of war. And once that was through... we refused to go back, saying we had what we needed. Baloney.

It went against what I believe our country is all about. It went against what looked like a sure quagmire... there are so many diverse groups in Iraq, the survival of it as an intact entity even today looks doubtful. It is a matter of time before Kurds wish to go it alone... and then watch the fun as Turkey, Syria, and Iran try to deal with that turn of events.

Yet, even given that... I never ever expected they were ill prepared for the logistical side of the aftermath. It astounded me to see there was no coordination. And how chaotic it truly is is evident in an article I've mentioned before, and which is on the Feminism Today board, going back 2-3 weeks now, called "Fern Holland's war... a remarkable story of her courage, yet without being an article on the war shows more of what things are like than just about anything else I've read. Money being thrown around with no accountability, doing things to make the occupation authorities look good...

if Kerry is elected, he has to find a way to bring stability out of chaos. Good luck to him... yet we know Bush can't, he thinks in terms of fighting, the trap Israeli and Palestinians are in, and that Northern Ireland hovers on the periphery of. Bush could have pulled it off - if it wasn't all about the fight and was instead about the rebuilding... but we wanted the contracts, and were playing keep away from the rest of the world... we wished the spoils, and we got them. All of them.

Kerry will have little trouble adding 40,000 troops if authorised... with sane policy, with sufficient incentives... it can be done. And it makes sense.

As for more time.. more time would have been good. More time gets more on our side. More time leaves more time to concentrate on Afghanistan, where women hardly voted yesterday, their hubbies wouldn't let them, at least in one area I read about. More time for preparing plans for how to deal with the aftermath, keep services flowing, give jobs to Iraqi's, etc. More time to have it not be seen as an occupying force.

One of the things lost on Vietnam was that Ho Chi Minh was first a nationalist... once our ally who we dumped in order to bring stability to France. The Vietnamese were sick of foreign occupiers, the Chinese, the French, the Japanese... and they wanted everyone *out* of their country... they weren't looking at a policy of containment, a global picture of two powerful forces colliding... they wished their own country. I suspect that is afoot here as well... who cares what logic you use to justify being here? This is our country, begone. And when it gets to that point, no matter how altruistic you be, you won't get anywhere.


Edited 10/10/2004 1:09 pm ET ET by rayeellen

Avatar for papparic
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Sun, 10-10-2004 - 2:10pm
You know, you're right. What the hell are we doing indoors, staring at computer screens, when it's beautiful outside? Fall is a great time to get out even though it is often rainy here.

First of all, since I'm not an American I don't have to choose between tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum for a president. There is not much to hurrah about regarding Kerry. In many questions he does not offer a clear choice let alone a discernible one. I don't agree with his policies regarding Iraq. I find them contradictory and confusing. What he hopes to achieve through a new coalition does not make sense to me. Should he become president I can only hope that he will be able to wade through the quagmire that exists there now. I hold out no such hope should Bush be returned to office. He has followed the advice of Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and will continue to do so.

My opposition to Bush's "coalition" stems not from what Kerry has to offer but from the war itself and how it has been waged. I happen to agree with you, that Blix would probably still be asking for more time and still be unable to give a definitive answer to whether or not Saddam had weapons. We'll never know.

The bottom line is that Saddam did not have WMDs and was too corrupt in his pursuit of personal pleasures and power to muster the resources for them. Iraq is probably a better place without him (although I only foresee chaos and strife as rival gangsters struggle for power in that country) but the world is neither safer nor better off. In a power vacuum, much like what we have seen in the former Soviet Union, criminal elements struggle for control and many good people will suffer.

Bush's comment about how Kerry will plead his case, "Join me in the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place" is probably correct. Strange though that Bush is able to sum up the situation so succinctly when putting the words into Kerry's mouth but he is unable to utter the same phrases from his own.

Obviously, I see Bush as a two-faced person, too dimwitted to formulate a plan for peace in Iraq and too stubborn to acknowledge when everything has turned to caca.

I am one of those who was opposed to the war from the outset. I have never understood any of the preoccupation with Iraq from the start. The world has many evil regimes. The world stands idly by and does nothing for the most part. I could never get my head around why the elimination of one madman, who had no aims at world domination, would make the world any safer.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-01-2004
Sun, 10-10-2004 - 6:31pm
What three things has Kerry done wrong? He doesn't even admit to changing his mind (numerous times) about the war!
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-01-2004
Sun, 10-10-2004 - 6:47pm
President Bush has degrees from both Yale and Harvard. He certainly is not a person of limited intelligence, nor is he a loser. IMO the President presented his point of view very effectively during the debate. Kerry serves as a perfect example that it is always easier to criticize others than to do something positive yourself. If Kerry is so concerned about health care, the environment, etc., what bills has he sponsored and led to passage regarding these matters in almost twenty years in the Senate? None! Doesn't that make you question his sincerity, his abilities as a leader, and his intellectual honesty?
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-01-2004
Sun, 10-10-2004 - 6:59pm
PLEASE! Kerry married two very, very wealthy women - he did not get ahead in life solely by "working his a.. off". Given the bias of the news media, the President was right to be assertive; look at the Dan Rather fiasco and the recent ABC memo urging leneincy regarding Kerry misstatements.
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-05-2004
Sun, 10-10-2004 - 7:03pm
If you watch the biography movie out on Kerry now you will know Kerry wasn't always rich. He had to work for money in college just like anybody else. When he was new to the Senate his ex-wife didn't give him any money so he was living off other people for a while. One guy in the movie said Kerry still owed him money from college days (he was either a roomate or a classmate). You can download the movie for free (and legally) at http://www.thekerrymovie.com Kerry fell in love with two women who just happened to have money. That's like saying Britney Spears' new husband is with her just because of her money and her fame as a pop star.
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-01-2004
Sun, 10-10-2004 - 7:04pm
What school is this and where?
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-01-2004
Sun, 10-10-2004 - 7:11pm
Thank you for your posts - they're great. I still don't see how Kerry supporters believe Kerry will lead any alliance: he fails to respect our current allies and then states he can win the support of others for a war he describes as wrong war/wrong place/wrong time. Kerry must have cut leadership 101 - just like he cut all those intelligence committee meetings!
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-07-2004
Sun, 10-10-2004 - 7:31pm
In 1970 Kerry helped organize the Massachusetts’ first Earth Day, then led the fight against acid rain in the northeast as Lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts.

He helped defeat efforts to roll back the environmental accomplishments of a generation whether in the form of regulatory reform or efforts to drill in national monuments and the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

And Kerry led the effort to make environmental preservation a global priority through comprehensive treaties and pushing for the inclusion of important environmental protections in free trade agreements.

And he fought hard to block the efforts that would weaken the Clean Air Act and joined a bipartisan proposal to limit mercury, sulfur, nitrogen and carbon dioxide (commonly called the Four Pollutant Bill) from power plants.

Kerry worked to guarantee cleaner and safer drinking water by strengthening the Safe Drinking Water Act, and fought efforts to weaken it. Most recently Kerry voiced his strong opposition to President Bush’s attempt to rollback drinking water standards for arsenic.

He cosponsored legislation in 2002 which would have brought millions of more dollars home to America’s communities to clean up Superfund sites, the most toxic sites in our nation. He also led the fight against Republican proposals that would weaken the ability of people to learn about polluters in their own neighborhoods.

He wrote a successful amendment that increased renewable energy and climate change research funding.

And he wrote a resolution that passed the Senate Foreign Relations Committee calling on the Bush Administration stop blocking progress and to engage in international efforts to mitigate the threat of climate change.

Kerry helped block proposals to drill for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. President Bush is determined to sell the resources of the Refuge to oil and gas companies.

Kerry sponsored legislation with Senator John McCain that would have made America’s cars and trucks more efficient and safer. His proposal would save millions of barrels of oil per day, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and smog and save consumers billions of dollars.

He wrote legislation banning the dumping of plastics and other waste off our coasts, fought efforts to drill in sensitive areas in Georges Bank, and off the Florida and California coast and sponsored legislation protecting dolphins, porpoises, seals and other marine mammals.

Maybe you should do a little homework before you say "none".








iVillage Member
Registered: 08-07-2004
Sun, 10-10-2004 - 7:35pm
Kerry on Health Care

Wrote Pre-Cursor Bill to S-CHIP, Providing Coverage for up to 5 Million Children. John Kerry's 1996 bill, the Healthy Children, Family Assistance Health Insurance Program, was the precursor to the successful State Children's Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP) that became law in 1997. S-CHIP provides funding to cover 5 million children.

Improved Coverage and Care for America's Veterans. John Kerry has been a tireless champion of mandatory funding for veterans' health care. He fought vigorously for full funding of Veterans Administration (VA) health care and opposed the Bush administration's exclusion of Priority 8 veterans and its elimination of VA outreach efforts. He sought improved prescription drug benefits and authored legislation in 2003 to let veterans fill prescriptions written by non-VA doctors through the VA pharmacy.

Improved Post-Natal Care. John Kerry co-sponsored an amendment that successfully required health care plans to provide coverage for a minimum hospital stay for a mother and child following the birth of the child.

Fought HIV/AIDS. John Kerry was among the earliest supporters of the Ryan White Comprehensive AIDS Resources Emergency (CARE) Act, which today is the largest discretionary federal investment in treatment and support services for individuals and families living with HIV or AIDS. Today, 533,000 Americans with HIV/AIDS receive better treatment through this program.

Addressed America's Nursing Shortage. John Kerry wrote the Nurse Reinvestment Act to help relieve a nationwide, crisis-level shortage of registered nurses by encouraging more young people to choose a career in nursing. Today, enrollment rates at undergraduate nursing programs are up by 17 percent.

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