nice school

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-25-2008
nice school
218
Fri, 11-07-2008 - 11:33am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago_Laboratory_School


Obama's girls have a nice school to attend; if public education is so great, how come his girl's don't go to public school?

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iVillage Member
Registered: 11-12-2008
In reply to: greenie75
Sat, 11-15-2008 - 6:54pm

>>> You 'presume' an awful lot.

Not really...unless you are suggesting that the evaluations teachers are subjected to are a sham.

>>> Do you have specifics of how this 'merit' pay would work or are you leaving it totally up to the discretion of the administrator?

I'd be happy to create a program if you could get the teacher's union to agree to it, but shy of that, I think it's probably best left to educators and administrators to monitor their own house.

>>> Because it seems it should have some fairly objective criteria - evaluations are pretty subjective. I have seen wonderful teachers get less than wonderful evaluations just because they had questioned a principals policy somewhere along the line. I have seen principals go into a classroom over and over waiting for the teacher to make one small mistake - petty yes but remember principals are just people too. I have been fortunate not to suffer this kind of treatment but I have had principals that have done this to my peers.

This kind of thing happens in business every day...and yet, we are evaluated every day and fired, or promoted or given raises/bonuses based on these evaluations. Teachers should be no different, especially when the education of our youth hangs in the balance.

>>> I asked what how you would deal with the ensuing teacher shortage - you did not give me any suggestions.

I don't think there would be a shortage of teachers, just bad teachers.

>>> I really don't know how you take an honest question and assume I am saying 'the heck with kids' because I do work with that population - the kids who are homeless or in foster care or in extremely dysfunctional families, the kids whose parents may not have completed high school and whose families do not value education, the kids who are so worried about their next meal or where they are going to sleep tonight that they can't really concentrate on learning. But their gains are much smaller than the other students I teach - the 'above level' students who generally come from two parent, professional, households where education is valued, where homework gets done, where tutoring is provided if a student struggles.

And you don't think that teachers and administrators would be able to factor that in? Again, it happens all the time in business. An executive takes into account the experience of the employee, the respective difficulty of the job, the interaction with other employees/departments, and the employees overall success. I can't see any reason why schools wouldn't be able to make similar evaluations of teachers and adjust salaries or terminate them accordingly.

>>> I can foresee a situation where 'above level' students scores will result in teacher bonuses while 'working towards level' students scores will not.

Sorry, can't see it...but maybe I'm giving teachers and administrators more credit than they deserve. It works in every other area of business, and teaching ain't rocket science. I think we do our children a great disservice by hiring inept teachers and then apologizing for them.

>>> The result COULD lead a teacher shortage in the area that needs the best teachers - I asked YOU how you would deal with that situation since merit pay is what YOU are advocating - no answers? Didn't think so.

I don't think so. I think the result would be excited, energetic new teachers trying to earn that merit pay, going out of their way to be creative and innovative. What we have now is essentially Obama's "spread the wealth" theory put into practice...financial equality irrespective of performance. Why should a teacher invest themselves and work harder if there's nothing to gain from it? The system breeds mediocrity.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-12-2008
In reply to: greenie75
Sat, 11-15-2008 - 7:05pm

>>> How could we be sure that administrators, under pressure from the board of ed to bring down the budget, will not simply decide that teachers who are higher on the pay scale are "burned out" or "incompetent" so that younger, cheaper, less experienced teachers will be all that's left to pay out of the budget?

Because the administrators would also be judged on performance, just like executives are in business every day. The motivation of the administrators would be to find "stars" and to cultivate that talent, and also to actively seek better methods of teaching. I know liberals hate it, but competition brings out the best.

>>> Also, it is documented that the two biggest factors that impact a child's success in school are:

1. Economics

2. Class size

There was a study done, I'll see if I can find it, in a souther state - I want to say Alabama - where a big corporation moved into a very impoverished area with "failing" schools. Many of the unemployed parents got jobs at this facility, and their socio-economic status was brought above the poverty level. Nothing else was changed. The children's passing and graduation rates improved drastically.

I'm not sure what the point was. I advocate employment for everyone.

>>> There are so, so, SO many factors that make a school "quality" or not. This is a very complex issue.

I disagree. Class size, performance, facilities, extra-curricular programs...that's how I judge the quality of a school, and that's how I think most parents judge the quality of a school.

>>> I really urge anyone who is not involved with the public schools in their area to call the principal and schedule a visit. I bet it would be extremely enlightening to see what's going on.

You can't even get the principal for our local high-school on the phone. In fact, you can't get anyone on the phone...they use an automated system. Two years ago, they finished a multi-million dollar rebuild of the school...but didn't even have enough books for the students. It's insane.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-20-2008
In reply to: greenie75
Sat, 11-15-2008 - 7:24pm

<<<<>>>>>>>

It's too funny to have you say 'just like executives in business' when we have just bailed out major financial institutions to the tune of billions of dollars. So just how well are those 'business executives' doing? LOL

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-27-2001
In reply to: greenie75
Sat, 11-15-2008 - 8:04pm

Because the administrators would also be judged on performance, just like executives are in business every day. The motivation of the administrators would be to find "stars" and to cultivate that talent, and also to actively seek better methods of teaching. I know liberals hate it, but competition brings out the best.


May I request that in the future, you leave off the unnecesary generalization at the end?

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-12-2008
In reply to: greenie75
Sat, 11-15-2008 - 11:21pm

>>> It's too funny to have you say 'just like executives in business' when we have just bailed out major financial institutions to the tune of billions of dollars. So just how well are those 'business executives' doing? LOL

LOL!...they're doing just fine...most businesses work pretty well, and if an executive or employee doesn't perform, they get fired...which is what should happen to bad teachers and school administrators. The "businesses" you see us bailing out now, are institutions that were coerced by Democrats to adopt foolish business practices and also those who are saddled by burdensome union contracts that make fair competition in the free market impossible.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-12-2008
In reply to: greenie75
Sun, 11-16-2008 - 3:46am

>>> May I request that in the future, you leave off the unnecesary generalization at the end? I was truly hoping to discuss how teachers would be fairly evaluated and not subjected to politicizing of the budget.

All roads lead to Rome. ; )

>>> Your answer was valid, and maybe we could've continued the discussion. But then you had to be snarky at the end. To what end?

Making a valid, and accurate, point about the liberalization of our schools?

< I'm not sure what the point was. I advocate employment for everyone.

>>> You see, the reason you don't get my "point" is that there is this assumption on this board lately that every statement is an attempt to stuff something in someone's face. I was sharing information. Not trying to make you look bad. I'm sorry you expected, and therefore perceived, that as some type of "point" to be scored against you, rather than more information in a conversation.

Actually, I expected it to be a point related to the ongoing conversation, not an attack. I didn't recognize how it related to the conversation so I queried.

>>> There are so, so, SO many factors that make a school "quality" or not. This is a very complex issue.

< I disagree. Class size, performance, facilities, extra-curricular programs...that's how I judge the quality of a school, and that's how I think most parents judge the quality of a school.

>>> My statement may not have been clear. I agree with your criteria for evealuating a school's quality. What I meant by many factors that contribute to the "quality", I was talking about community issues that effect the children's motivation to learn, ability to focus, familial support, economic status, nutritional issues, safety of a community, diversity of a community, level of special needs children in the population, etc. All more reasons that education was always a "reserved power" constitutionally, and all the more reason the federal government should get out of it.

Ok...but even regarding your new criteria, I can't see that my point of view would change. It's the job of the teacher to teach...if they're out of their depth in a special needs class then they should teach a different class, if they are good with elementary school students then that is who they should teach, and not high school. Teachers should be required to perform just like every other employee of every other business. The criteria of what makes a "good performance" is obviously determined by each business.

< You can't even get the principal for our local high-school on the phone. In fact, you can't get anyone on the phone...they use an automated system. Two years ago, they finished a multi-million dollar rebuild of the school...but didn't even have enough books for the students. It's insane.

>>> I'm very sorry to hear that's the case. That is truly a shame. I wonder if that school is considered "failing" by NCLB? The administrators in my district, as well as the teachers, usually respond to email over the weekend, and during the work week, are easily reachable by phone. I am welcome in the school any time to see my childrens' teachers and see what's going on. Yet, the federal governent says the school is "failing".

NCLB is a boondoggle. A liberal (oops, there it is again) pipedream. It should be trashed immediately and replaced with a system that doesn't give a school incentive to shove an illiterate child through the system.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-05-2008
In reply to: greenie75
Sun, 11-16-2008 - 12:11pm

NCLB is a boondoggle. A liberal (oops, there it is again) pipedream. It should be trashed immediately and replaced with a system that doesn't give a school incentive to shove an illiterate child through the system.


Then why didn't the republican controlled Congress and White House trash it from 2000 to 2006 or attempt to when they controlled Congress during the Clinton years?

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-05-2008
In reply to: greenie75
Sun, 11-16-2008 - 12:44pm

Yeah, LOL.

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-19-2008
In reply to: greenie75
Sun, 11-16-2008 - 12:58pm
NCLB was passed in 2001 with a good amount of bi-partisan support, to include none other than current VP-elect Joseph Biden. Not only does supporting the Iraq war not matter much if you happen to be certain Democrats, but support of NCLB is also tolerated from certain Democrats. So why don't all you NCLB haters ask BO why he chose a VP who supported it; that is, after you get an answer regarding Joseph Biden's support of the Iraq war.
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iVillage Member
Registered: 02-19-2008
In reply to: greenie75
Sun, 11-16-2008 - 1:04pm

Actually President Bush would have preferred vouchers right off the get-go. He didn't have enough support from Congress to get them.

Ain't it awful how some parents would want the means to get out of a failing school?

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