The Tortured Party

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-20-2008
The Tortured Party
472
Fri, 12-12-2008 - 11:15pm

Now that he's got nothing to lose by dropping the pandering, McCain issued a joint report just that found that Rumsfeld was right in the middle of authorizing the torture:

"Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld Approves Aggressive Techniques (U)
(U) With respect to GTMO’s October 11, 2002 request to use aggressive interrogation
techniques, Mr. Haynes said that “there was a sense by the DoD Leadership that this decision
was taking too long” and that Secretary Rumsfeld told his senior advisors “I need a
recommendation.” On November 27, 2002, the Secretary got one. Notwithstanding the serious
legal concerns raised by the military services, Mr. Haynes sent a one page memo to the
Secretary, recommending that he approve all but three of the eighteen techniques in the GTMO
request. Techniques such as stress positions, removal of clothing, use of phobias (such as fear of
dogs), and deprivation of light and auditory stimuli were all recommended for approval.
(U) Mr. Haynes’s memo indicated that he had discussed the issue with Deputy Secretary
of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Doug Feith, and General
Myers and that he believed they concurred in his recommendation. When asked what he relied
on to make his recommendation that the aggressive techniques be approved, the only written
legal opinion Mr. Haynes cited was Lieutenant Colonel Beaver’s legal analysis, which senior
military lawyers had considered “legally insufficient” and “woefully inadequate,” and which
LTC Beaver herself had expected would be supplemented with a review by persons with greater
experience than her own.
(U) On December 2, 2002, Secretary Rumsfeld signed Mr. Haynes’s recommendation,
adding a handwritten note that referred to limits proposed in the memo on the use of stress
positions: “I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to 4 hours?”
(U) SERE school techniques are designed to simulate abusive tactics used by our
enemies. There are fundamental differences between a SERE school exercise and a real world
interrogation. At SERE school, students are subject to an extensive medical and psychological
pre-screening prior to being subjected to physical and psychological pressures. The schools
impose strict limits on the frequency, duration, and/or intensity of certain techniques.
Psychologists are present throughout SERE training to intervene should the need arise and to
help students cope with associated stress. And SERE school is voluntary; students are even
given a special phrase they can use to immediately stop the techniques from being used against
them.
(U) Neither those differences, nor the serious legal concerns that had been registered,
stopped the Secretary of Defense from approving the use of the aggressive techniques against
detainees. Moreover, Secretary Rumsfeld authorized the techniques without apparently
providing any written guidance as to how they should be administered. "

http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/supporting/2008/Detainees.121108.pdf

What a surprise! There will be a lot more on this. If we don't hold those who broke the law accountable, the rampant rate of lawbreaking in the Republican Party will not slow down in the slightest. It will also be a good message to Democrats not to make the same mistakes.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-16-2007
Sat, 12-13-2008 - 4:29am

I didn't read all of that, because I am confident that I am well-read in current and past related events.


What is the problem with "torture," exactly?


If someone was out to kill you and your children, would you not employ any tactic to save them?

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-28-2004
Sat, 12-13-2008 - 9:22am

Good point.


Obama won't give his definition.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-20-2008
Sat, 12-13-2008 - 10:37am
Well I guess if torture is ok, then
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-28-2004
Sat, 12-13-2008 - 11:25am
Ah, I think there is a little difference.
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-20-2008
Sat, 12-13-2008 - 11:58am

Torture is not only immoral and ineffective, it's illegal. We USED to be a nation of laws but BushCo connived at suspending essential civil rights like due process; and has relentlessly expropriated power from the legislative branch.

There have been many studies done which show that the "confessions" of torture victims are not accurate, not truthful and are given only to stop the torment. There have also been studies which show that torturing degrades not just the victim but the "interrogators" as well.

Doubtless, you know of these since you're "well-read in current and past related events".

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 12-13-2008 - 11:59am
You mean, aside from the fact that it violates an international treaty? Aside from the fact that it doesn't gain reliable information (because the tortured individual will say ANYTHING to get you to stop)?

The 3 Day

Sandy
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-20-2008
Sat, 12-13-2008 - 12:07pm

"What is the problem with "torture," exactly?"

Whatever I say to you, you will not believe: like torture is immoral, it doesn't work and it places our soldiers at risk. That is why folks like the first Republican President Lincoln implemented the precursor to the Geneva Convention, which the Republican Party today in its wisdom now ignores.

So why don't you listen to a former Navy Seal master instructor in training our soldiers how to evade enemy totalitarian torture techniques that we turned on our detainees? These are the same techniques the North Koreans, Nazis and other baddies used on their enemies by the way.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#28202251

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-20-2008
Sat, 12-13-2008 - 1:21pm
I guess to some - being on par with the Nazi's and Death Squads is not immoral and something to be proud of.
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-09-2008
Sat, 12-13-2008 - 2:39pm
Since you are all so against torture for any reason, please confirm that you would allow your spouse, children, loved ones, etc... be seriously harmed, terminated, or even tortured
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-20-2008
Sat, 12-13-2008 - 2:56pm

""There have been many studies done which show that the "confessions" of torture victims are not accurate, not truthful and are given only to stop the torment.""

In fact, that is what these techniques were designed by totalitarian regimes to do: elicit false confessions! The idea that we would rely on a broad policy of implementing these torture techniques to get good intelligence is mind boggling.

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