The Tortured Party
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| Fri, 12-12-2008 - 11:15pm |
Now that he's got nothing to lose by dropping the pandering, McCain issued a joint report just that found that Rumsfeld was right in the middle of authorizing the torture:
"Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld Approves Aggressive Techniques (U)
(U) With respect to GTMO’s October 11, 2002 request to use aggressive interrogation
techniques, Mr. Haynes said that “there was a sense by the DoD Leadership that this decision
was taking too long” and that Secretary Rumsfeld told his senior advisors “I need a
recommendation.” On November 27, 2002, the Secretary got one. Notwithstanding the serious
legal concerns raised by the military services, Mr. Haynes sent a one page memo to the
Secretary, recommending that he approve all but three of the eighteen techniques in the GTMO
request. Techniques such as stress positions, removal of clothing, use of phobias (such as fear of
dogs), and deprivation of light and auditory stimuli were all recommended for approval.
(U) Mr. Haynes’s memo indicated that he had discussed the issue with Deputy Secretary
of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Doug Feith, and General
Myers and that he believed they concurred in his recommendation. When asked what he relied
on to make his recommendation that the aggressive techniques be approved, the only written
legal opinion Mr. Haynes cited was Lieutenant Colonel Beaver’s legal analysis, which senior
military lawyers had considered “legally insufficient” and “woefully inadequate,” and which
LTC Beaver herself had expected would be supplemented with a review by persons with greater
experience than her own.
(U) On December 2, 2002, Secretary Rumsfeld signed Mr. Haynes’s recommendation,
adding a handwritten note that referred to limits proposed in the memo on the use of stress
positions: “I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to 4 hours?”
(U) SERE school techniques are designed to simulate abusive tactics used by our
enemies. There are fundamental differences between a SERE school exercise and a real world
interrogation. At SERE school, students are subject to an extensive medical and psychological
pre-screening prior to being subjected to physical and psychological pressures. The schools
impose strict limits on the frequency, duration, and/or intensity of certain techniques.
Psychologists are present throughout SERE training to intervene should the need arise and to
help students cope with associated stress. And SERE school is voluntary; students are even
given a special phrase they can use to immediately stop the techniques from being used against
them.
(U) Neither those differences, nor the serious legal concerns that had been registered,
stopped the Secretary of Defense from approving the use of the aggressive techniques against
detainees. Moreover, Secretary Rumsfeld authorized the techniques without apparently
providing any written guidance as to how they should be administered. "
http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/supporting/2008/Detainees.121108.pdf
What a surprise! There will be a lot more on this. If we don't hold those who broke the law accountable, the rampant rate of lawbreaking in the Republican Party will not slow down in the slightest. It will also be a good message to Democrats not to make the same mistakes.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT9_ZIUSLhY&eurl=http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLatest.htm
Obama on Governor Blagojevich/Rahm Emanuel
Hi!!!
Only 34 more days.....
< There are tons of missing munitions and also evidence that WMDs were moved over the border to Syria."
>>> If you are right, then the CIA are even bigger bozos than I thought. According to your theory, first the CIA was right about WMD, then they could not find it even though it was actually there! Now, again according to your theory, it's sitting somewhere and the CIA falsely believes it falsely thought there were WMD.
It’s not a “theory”…the missing munitions are a fact. However, I wouldn’t call the CIA “bozos” because they don’t know where they are. It could all have been a feign by Hussein, but it seems unlikely that a paranoid psychopath would use trickery as his primary means of national defense…and there is evidence that WMDs were moved across the border prior to the war.
>>> How about those CIA folks who have incredibly missed the WMD that mere amateurs like you see and the CIA believes doesn't exist? Talk about morons at the CIA! Your theory is pretty funny, and if it's true the CIA is totally inept!
I know you love to spin in order to make reality fit your agenda, but you’ll note I didn’t say “proof”…I said evidence. Does it really need to be pointed out that not finding something isn’t the same as that something not existing? As I stated before, it’s a fact that there are tons of missing munitions. It’s a fact that caravans of trucks crossed the border into Syria before the war…and General Sada, the second highest officer in the Iraqi air force, stated that WMDs were moved to Syria. And again, I wouldn’t call the CIA morons for not being able to prove the existence of WMDs one way or the other…intelligence gathering is not an exact science.
<< They have been incompetent and a political tool. They have gone along with the torture policy even though there is was and will be no strong evidence that torture works and all indications are that our time tested interrogation techniques we have used for hundreds of years work far far better.
< A ridiculous assertion. The CIA is after only one thing...results. If your "time tested interrogation techniques" worked, then there would have been no need to waterboard anyone. The fact is, they don't work, or take too much time to work, so other, more effective techniques are used."
>>> Again, you are making no sense at all. Instead of words, can you present evidence that (1) traditional techniques failed or were even given a chance, and (2) there is any evidence that torture works. Again, I'd like evidence instead of words.
Um…”words” like the ones that you are using? LOL! First, we’ll deal with simple common sense…if “torture” didn’t work then it would have been abandoned thousands of years ago in favor of the sophisticated myths…er…techniques that you allude to…and yet it hasn’t. You want us to believe that you’re right and all of those millions of other people are wrong? LOL! Sorry…but no. Second, I provided you with at least one high-profile example that waterboarding works…so now, where’s your proof that waterboarding doesn’t work? Evidence, please…not just words.
>>> Back in the real world: “blah, blah, blah…blah”
Evidence please…not words.
<< The fact that the CIA said torture worked on this means nothing. They are a discredited agency. It's a shame that you and the other Republicans are so blind to reality.
< Aah...so if the CIA says it, it must not be true, but if you or your leftist cohorts say it, based on nothing, then it must be true. What a world.""
>>> I just posted evidence that torture has never been proven effective. Where's your evidence that it works?
Already provided.
>>> Here's some more…”blah, blah, blah…blah.”
Please…I believe that your standard was “evidence”…not “words.” I’m afraid the heresay reporting of anonymous testimony just isn’t going to cut it. Evidence…not words.
>>> It just doesn't work "paladin."
And yet…
Zubaydah was captured in Pakistan in 2002. Shot three times before being caught, his life was saved by U.S. doctors. When he recovered, was among the first to speak to him.
Zubaydah was talkative, but he gave the CIA no usable intelligence.
CIA interrogators tried a variety of techniques of escalating severity on Zubaydah. Each one had to be specifically authorized in advance at the highest levels of the CIA.
Still, Zubaydah resisted. Finally the interrogation worked its way up to waterboarding.
“Was it used on Zubaydah?” Ross asked Kiriakou.
“It was.”
“And was it successful?”
“It was.”
After the waterboarding session, Zubaydah was a different man. “He told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night,” Kiriakou said, “and told him to cooperate because his cooperation would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured.”
U.S. interrogators, fearing another major attack — remember, this was just months after 9/11 — worked fast. According to Kiriakou, Zubaydah provided information that helped stop a number of al Qaeda actions.
“So in your view the waterboarding broke him?” Ross asked.
“I think it did, yes.”
“And did it make a difference?”
“It did. The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.”
“No doubt about that? That’s not some hype?”
“No doubt.”
http://thehill.com/byron-york/when-waterboarding-works-2007-12-13.html
and…
Speaking of 14 “high-value” al Qaeda targets subjected to harsh interrogation practices by the CIA, Fox News’s Bill O’Reilly asked , “Now, the waterboarding broke all these guys?”
“Not in every case,” said Ross. “Some broke before even got to that point.”
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed held out the longest, according to Ross. “About two and a half minutes , according to our sources,” he told O’Reilly.
In some cases, said Ross, “the material that has been given has not been accurate, has been essentially to stop the torture.”
But Mohammed did provide accurate information. “In the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,” said Ross, “the information was very valuable, particularly names and addresses of people who were involved with al Qaeda in this country and in Europe. And in one particular plot, which would involve an airline attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles, known as the Liberty Tower.”
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=17296&keywords=carpenter
CIA’s terrorist interrogation program, lawful and effective, was born of necessity. As President Bush told the nation in September 2006, the Agency applied its methods of questioning when other techniques did not work and when a captured terrorist “had more information that could save innocent lives.” Unlike traditional law enforcement, the CIA’s chief objective in interrogations is not forensics on past events, but actionable, forward-looking intelligence.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2973675
>>> We are not in Medieval times, my liege, on a Crusade in the Middle East, as Bush called it.
“Torture” didn’t stop working just because the internet was invented.
< There are tons of missing munitions and also evidence that WMDs were moved over the border to Syria."
>>> If you are right, then the CIA are even bigger bozos than I thought. According to your theory, first the CIA was right about WMD, then they could not find it even though it was actually there! Now, again according to your theory, it's sitting somewhere and the CIA falsely believes it falsely thought there were WMD.
It’s not a “theory”…the missing munitions are a fact. However, I wouldn’t call the CIA “bozos” because they don’t know where they are. It could all have been a feign by Hussein, but it seems unlikely that a paranoid psychopath would use trickery as his primary means of national defense…and there is evidence that WMDs were moved across the border prior to the war.
------Oh my, if true, your theory would mean that the CIA are even bigger morons than I thought. Here is what the CIA found: No WMD and, specifically:
"Among unanswered questions, Duelfer said a group formed to investigate whether WMD-related material was shipped out of Iraq before the invasion wasn’t able to reach firm conclusions because the security situation limited and later halted their work. Investigators were focusing on transfers from Iraq to Syria.
No information gleaned from questioning Iraqis supported the possibility, one addendum said. The Iraq Survey Group believes “it was unlikely that an official transfer of WMD material from Iraq to Syria took place. However, ISG was unable to rule out unofficial movement of limited WMD-related materials.”"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/
>>> How about those CIA folks who have incredibly missed the WMD that mere amateurs like you see and the CIA believes doesn't exist? Talk about morons at the CIA! Your theory is pretty funny, and if it's true the CIA is totally inept!
I know you love to spin in order to make reality fit your agenda, but you’ll note I didn’t say “proof”…I said evidence. Does it really need to be pointed out that not finding something isn’t the same as that something not existing? As I stated before, it’s a fact that there are tons of missing munitions. It’s a fact that caravans of trucks crossed the border into Syria before the war…and General Sada, the second highest officer in the Iraqi air force, stated that WMDs were moved to Syria. And again, I wouldn’t call the CIA morons for not being able to prove the existence of WMDs one way or the other…intelligence gathering is not an exact science.
-------------Not an "exact science." Hmmmmm. Understatement of the week! You just showed what a bunch of complete incompetents they are.
<< They have been incompetent and a political tool. They have gone along with the torture policy even though there is was and will be no strong evidence that torture works and all indications are that our time tested interrogation techniques we have used for hundreds of years work far far better.
< A ridiculous assertion. The CIA is after only one thing...results. If your "time tested interrogation techniques" worked, then there would have been no need to waterboard anyone. The fact is, they don't work, or take too much time to work, so other, more effective techniques are used."
-----------------Can you present evidence instead of unsupported assertions? The answer must be no because I keep asking for evidence and you keep ignoring.
>>> Again, you are making no sense at all. Instead of words, can you present evidence that (1) traditional techniques failed or were even given a chance, and (2) there is any evidence that torture works. Again, I'd like evidence instead of words.
Um…”words” like the ones that you are using? LOL! First, we’ll deal with simple common sense…if “torture” didn’t work then it would have been abandoned thousands of years ago in favor of the sophisticated myths…er…techniques that you allude to…and yet it hasn’t. You want us to believe that you’re right and all of those millions of other people are wrong? LOL! Sorry…but no. Second, I provided you with at least one high-profile example that waterboarding works…so now, where’s your proof that waterboarding doesn’t work? Evidence, please…not just words.
---------------------Torture is common sense? And up is down? Sorry, but I'll take Lincoln's judgment, your party's best leader by far, over yours. Lincoln would completely disagree with you. No offense.
>>> Back in the real world: “blah, blah, blah…blah”
Evidence please…not words.
<< The fact that the CIA said torture worked on this means nothing. They are a discredited agency. It's a shame that you and the other Republicans are so blind to reality.
< Aah...so if the CIA says it, it must not be true, but if you or your leftist cohorts say it, based on nothing, then it must be true. What a world.""
>>> I just posted evidence that torture has never been proven effective. Where's your evidence that it works?
Already provided.
>>> Here's some more…”blah, blah, blah…blah.”
Please…I believe that your standard was “evidence”…not “words.” I’m afraid the heresay reporting of anonymous testimony just isn’t going to cut it. Evidence…not words.
>>> It just doesn't work "paladin."
And yet…
Zubaydah was captured in Pakistan in 2002. Shot three times before being caught, his life was saved by U.S. doctors. When he recovered, was among the first to speak to him.
Zubaydah was talkative, but he gave the CIA no usable intelligence.
CIA interrogators tried a variety of techniques of escalating severity on Zubaydah. Each one had to be specifically authorized in advance at the highest levels of the CIA.
Still, Zubaydah resisted. Finally the interrogation worked its way up to waterboarding.
“Was it used on Zubaydah?” Ross asked Kiriakou.
“It was.”
“And was it successful?”
“It was.”
After the waterboarding session, Zubaydah was a different man. “He told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night,” Kiriakou said, “and told him to cooperate because his cooperation would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured.”
U.S. interrogators, fearing another major attack — remember, this was just months after 9/11 — worked fast. According to Kiriakou, Zubaydah provided information that helped stop a number of al Qaeda actions.
“So in your view the waterboarding broke him?” Ross asked.
“I think it did, yes.”
“And did it make a difference?”
“It did. The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.”
“No doubt about that? That’s not some hype?”
“No doubt.”
http://thehill.com/byron-york/when-waterboarding-works-2007-12-13.html
and…
Speaking of 14 “high-value” al Qaeda targets subjected to harsh interrogation practices by the CIA, Fox News’s Bill O’Reilly asked , “Now, the waterboarding broke all these guys?”
“Not in every case,” said Ross. “Some broke before even got to that point.”
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed held out the longest, according to Ross. “About two and a half minutes , according to our sources,” he told O’Reilly.
In some cases, said Ross, “the material that has been given has not been accurate, has been essentially to stop the torture.”
But Mohammed did provide accurate information. “In the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,” said Ross, “the information was very valuable, particularly names and addresses of people who were involved with al Qaeda in this country and in Europe. And in one particular plot, which would involve an airline attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles, known as the Liberty Tower.”
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=17296&keywords=carpenter
CIA’s terrorist interrogation program, lawful and effective, was born of necessity. As President Bush told the nation in September 2006, the Agency applied its methods of questioning when other techniques did not work and when a captured terrorist “had more information that could save innocent lives.” Unlike traditional law enforcement, the CIA’s chief objective in interrogations is not forensics on past events, but actionable, forward-looking intelligence.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2973675
>>> We are not in Medieval times, my liege, on a Crusade in the Middle East, as Bush called it.
“Torture” didn’t stop working just because the internet was invented.
---------------------Your evidence is just anecdotal stories which are contradicted by the posts I made. I posted a study showing that torture doesn't work. Where is your study showing that it does? Ooops, you don't have one, do you? Maybe you can find some Dick Cheney henchmen to make some up.
< There are tons of missing munitions and also evidence that WMDs were moved over the border to Syria."
>>> If you are right, then the CIA are even bigger bozos than I thought. According to your theory, first the CIA was right about WMD, then they could not find it even though it was actually there! Now, again according to your theory, it's sitting somewhere and the CIA falsely believes it falsely thought there were WMD.
< It’s not a “theory”…the missing munitions are a fact. However, I wouldn’t call the CIA “bozos” because they don’t know where they are. It could all have been a feign by Hussein, but it seems unlikely that a paranoid psychopath would use trickery as his primary means of national defense…and there is evidence that WMDs were moved across the border prior to the war.
>>> Oh my, if true, your theory would mean that the CIA are even bigger morons than I thought. Here is what the CIA found: No WMD
You expect the CIA to find WMD that are either missing or shipped across the border? LOL! Wow…you sure do demand a lot from your local intelligence agency.
< I know you love to spin in order to make reality fit your agenda, but you’ll note I didn’t say “proof”…I said evidence. Does it really need to be pointed out that not finding something isn’t the same as that something not existing? As I stated before, it’s a fact that there are tons of missing munitions. It’s a fact that caravans of trucks crossed the border into Syria before the war…and General Sada, the second highest officer in the Iraqi air force, stated that WMDs were moved to Syria. And again, I wouldn’t call the CIA morons for not being able to prove the existence of WMDs one way or the other…intelligence gathering is not an exact science.
>>> Not an "exact science." Hmmmmm. Understatement of the week! You just showed what a bunch of complete incompetents they are.
Why? Do you think that French or Russian intelligence agencies know our national secrets (excluding the ones that libs expose, that is)?
>>> Can you present evidence instead of unsupported assertions? The answer must be no because I keep asking for evidence and you keep ignoring.
I guess some people have reading comprehension problems and are having trouble reading links from first hand sources. I have noticed, however, you’ve provided nothing to back up your arguments except uncredited sourced…which don’t really go over big in non-lib environs.
< Um…”words” like the ones that you are using? LOL! First, we’ll deal with simple common sense…if “torture” didn’t work then it would have been abandoned thousands of years ago in favor of the sophisticated myths…er…techniques that you allude to…and yet it hasn’t. You want us to believe that you’re right and all of those millions of other people are wrong? LOL! Sorry…but no. Second, I provided you with at least one high-profile example that waterboarding works…so now, where’s your proof that waterboarding doesn’t work? Evidence, please…not just words.
>>> Torture is common sense? And up is down? Sorry, but I'll take Lincoln's judgment, your party's best leader by far, over yours. Lincoln would completely disagree with you. No offense.
LOL! Does the shoving of square reality into your round ideology never end? The “common sense” referred to in my post, was in the examination of the USE of torture throughout history…but to take it a step further, sure, the use of torture to elicit information makes perfect “common sense.”
>>> Your evidence is just anecdotal stories which are contradicted by the posts I made. I posted a study showing that torture doesn't work. Where is your study showing that it does? Ooops, you don't have one, do you? Maybe you can find some Dick Cheney henchmen to make some up.
LOL! Sure…anecdotal evidence by one of the guys who was actually there, as opposed to the heresay opinions of anonymous sources. Like I said, that kind of drivel doesn’t really go over big in serious debates. Try again…maybe you can find a “study” that has actual information and testimony from actual people. LOL!
Torture also compromises the honor of those who are tasked to perform it:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/27/AR2005092701527.html
Sopal
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This piece came out recently. Thought you would find it interesting:
<More than two-thirds of volunteers in the research study had to be stopped from administering 150 volt shocks of electricity, despite hearing a person's cries of pain, professor Jerry M. Burger concluded in a study published in the January issue of the journal American Psychologist.>>
......more at
http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_11274657?nclick_check=1
Frankly, I will never understand the mindset of those who condone torture or consider it "patriotic". That's the kind of warped, perverted, and immoral thinking which has permitted tyrants and fiends to flourish in totalitarian regimes. Absolutely sickening.
"Frankly, I will never understand the mindset of those who condone torture or consider it "patriotic". That's the kind of warped, perverted, and immoral thinking which has permitted tyrants and fiends to flourish in totalitarian regimes. Absolutely sickening."
Absolutely correct on that.
"![]()
Sopal
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