An Iraqi Journalist Throws SHOEs at Bush

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-05-2008
An Iraqi Journalist Throws SHOEs at Bush
178
Sun, 12-14-2008 - 3:40pm

Good gosh.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 12-10-2008
Tue, 12-23-2008 - 1:38am

Let's keep in mind that the mock execution aspect of waterboarding means it's by definition torture.


If someone is being trained by their own people, and knows they

Kate

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-10-2008
Tue, 12-23-2008 - 1:45am

~Throwing shoes at the United States of America... acceptable.~


You mean at one American?

Kate

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-20-2008
Tue, 12-23-2008 - 1:55am
As I understand it, the waterboarding is part of the SERE program. Are you suggesting that your son would go AWOL in order to avoid participating in the program? Would he do this because he is afraid of being "tortured?"
iVillage Member
Registered: 12-20-2008
Tue, 12-23-2008 - 2:17am

>>> Let's keep in mind that the mock execution aspect of waterboarding means it's by definition torture.

There is no "aspect" to keep in mind. Waterboarding, at least as performed by the US, is not performed as a "mock execution."

>>> If someone is being trained by their own people, and knows they are not being killed by it, different scenerio (although it sounds pretty horrible regardless).

Considering no one has lasted more than a few minutes, and most last only a few seconds, before being "broken," waterboarding actually sounds quite humane and very effective...especially when compared to actual "torture."

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-10-2008
Tue, 12-23-2008 - 2:28am
>>> Let's keep in mind that the mock execution aspect of waterboarding means it's by definition torture.

~There is no "aspect" to keep in mind. Waterboarding, at least as performed by the US, is not performed as a "mock execution."~


Oh?

Kate

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-20-2008
Tue, 12-23-2008 - 2:59am

>>> Oh? Prisoners are told that while they will experience the sensation of drowning they will not actually be drowned? Do you have some sort of evidence to back that up?

Quite probably, as with most coercive techniques, the prisoner is told that the procedure will stop, and/or comfort will be restored, if they cooperate. But since you mentioned it, can you provide any evidence to back up your claim that waterboarding was performed as an execution?

>>> If someone is being trained by their own people, and knows they are not being killed by it, different scenerio (although it sounds pretty horrible regardless).

~Considering no one has lasted more than a few minutes, and most last only a few seconds, before being "broken," waterboarding actually sounds quite humane and very effective...especially when compared to actual "torture."~

>>> Something that's so horrible that people break quickly and say what they think will stop it doesn't sound "humane" to me. People didn't last long on the rack either, and it sure wasn't "humane". Interesting perspective, but I don't buy it.

When one considers the variety of techniques that could be applied to elicit cooperation, a momentary technique who's lasting effect seems to be a few restless nights sounds pretty humane. I'm sure John McCain would raise his hands in agreement over that one.

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-10-2008
Tue, 12-23-2008 - 3:20am

I claimed that it is

Kate

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-10-2008
Tue, 12-23-2008 - 3:37am

I'm curious about the "few restless nights" claim.

Kate

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-20-2008
Tue, 12-23-2008 - 4:25am

>>> I'm curious about the "few restless nights" claim. On what have you based this?

After being voluntarily waterboarded twice for less than 20 seconds, Christopher Hitchens claimed that he had restless nights on some occasions that he attributed to the waterboarding. It should also me mentioned that Hitchens was so horrified by the experience that he insisted on being waterboarded a second time to see if he could "do better." He held out an additional 5 seconds.

>>> One of my kids experienced ICU-induced psychosis last year due to being on life support for quite a while. She became convinced that the staff was killing her. Over the years she's been in tremendous pain at points, critical condition various times, coped with significant disabilities... but for her that was the worst experience, and not something she's over yet.

I assume that she was on life-support for more than 19 seconds?

>>> To me waterboarding prisoners is unconscionable.

I disagree, and the comments/descriptions of those who have been waterboarded tend to reinforce my belief.

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-20-2008
Tue, 12-23-2008 - 5:10am

>>> I claimed that it is performed as a "mock" execution. The subject has the distinct sensation of drowning (ie. dying)

The prisoner's assumptions aside, a "mock execution" would have the appearance and conduct of an "actual execution" except for the final result...presumably known only to the "executioners." Do you have any evidence that the people who were waterboarded were told that they were going to be killed?

>>> That's the point. There's nothing humane in causing someone to think they are dying.

It's that erroneous conclusion that ultimately breaks the resolve of the prisoner. That you can break a prisoner psychologically in a matter of moments, with no discernible lasting effects, rather than breaking a man physically in a matter of months or years, as John McCain experienced, is what makes the technique "humane."

>>> Ed. to add that while American soldiers have the assurance that their training does not include killing them, so they realize they will survive waterboarding done as part of their training, actual prisoners do not have that assurance.

Hence the effectiveness of the technique. But from what I've read, as most "prisoners" break within seconds, I doubt that the rationalization that "I won't be killed" is really a mitigating factor.

>>> Re: McCain, he called it a "horrible torture technique", a "terrible practice" that should never be condoned in the U.S. because you are "a better nation than that." Was he wrong?

In my opinion, yes...and if you asked him if he'd like the full use of his arms back, in exchange for the enemy getting the same level of cooperation, I'm sure he'd say yes.

>>> If you want to consider any form of torture "pretty humane" there's not much I can say. Good luck with that, I guess.

I guess I'm just not one of those people who feel that terrorists with information that can save innocent lives deserves a room at the Ritz. The point of this type of interrogation techniques is to push the "prisoner" to their breaking point. Waterboarding does this in a matter of seconds with no lasting physical effects and apparently with no long lasting psychological effects...beyond the fact that he knows that he broke...quickly...sad for him.

>>> In the meantime, it violates international law because while it's a lot of things it's not "humane", and both the CIA and Pentagon have banned it.

And the President has reserved it for the CIA.

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