The right's dangerous legal argument

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-13-2008
The right's dangerous legal argument
1537
Thu, 03-05-2009 - 9:46pm

Appearing for the supporters of Prop 8, Kenneth Starr, the former Whitewater prosecutor, said the people hold the right to modify the state constitution by adding or subtracting protections for civil rights.


Court appears ready to uphold Prop. 8



Full length fiction: worlds undone


"You have no power over my body..." ~ Anne Hutchinson


"You think you know, sir!" ~ Cornflake Girl ~ Tori Amos.


Full length fiction: worlds undone

"You have no power over my body..." ~ Anne Hutchinson

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iVillage Member
Registered: 08-13-2008
Sat, 03-14-2009 - 7:33pm

No...glorifying. Television programs, movies, magazines all show...career, family, etc...women can have it all...it's a shame their kids can't.


Mind if I request elaboration? Or am I to assume you argue against mothers working outside the home?


We're spending more now, per student, than we ever have in our history with higher rates of illiteracy, drop-out rates, teen pregnancy/abortion, welfare, gang violence...where's the return?


Irrelevant. A car cost 6 times more (for a cheap one) than it did forty years ago.


And 55 or so years ago, we had a nasty habit of not really adequately funding and educating minorities. We created an environment where women aborted clandestinely, or we forced them to drop them out of school because they were pregnant.


Think back to the 1960s, think back to the riots in our cities. Why do you think they occurred? 40 plus years ago, back when you try to suggest all was wonderful?


Do you believe our young in those areas were getting superb educations?


And how about special needs kids? How about our population more than doubling over that time?


Now I will agree we overmedicate our children overall, but I still think we do a better job now than then, but the issues are not due to liberalism... by the way, in case you missed it, there was a substantial conservative interlude that just ended, or are we to forget that? OK, I am for that, I would just as soon forget, too. So too the country.


We've seen the success of the liberal method...and it's nothing to be proud of. We also have hundreds of years of relative success teaching abstinence and instilling values and morals...hey, let's go with the proven failure! Yeah, that makes sense.


Unlike the right, I will not claim everything we do works. One thing that gets forgotten is that implementing new plans and strategies requires monitoring and adjustment, and that part was forgotten. Our fault.


The real problem is looking to place blame instead of working to solve.



Full length fiction: worlds undone

"You have no power over my body..." ~ Anne Hutchinson

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-20-2009
Sat, 03-14-2009 - 8:47pm

"You simply aren't in any position to question or judge

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-20-2009
Sat, 03-14-2009 - 8:52pm

"I'm just not convinced that either of us is capable of accurately or fairly going about making pronouncements about the morals and values of others"


iVillage Member
Registered: 02-12-2009
Sat, 03-14-2009 - 10:55pm

<< No...glorifying. Television programs, movies, magazines all show...career, family, etc...women can have it all...it's a shame their kids can't.

>>> Mind if I request elaboration? Or am I to assume you argue against mothers working outside the home?

Two pronged argument...I can argue against the damage that "working mothers" cause to their children and to society...but I can also understand, and support, women finding themselves in an untenable situation and being forced to make the best of it. I suppose the argument comes down to "intent."

<< We're spending more now, per student, than we ever have in our history with higher rates of illiteracy, drop-out rates, teen pregnancy/abortion, welfare, gang violence...where's the return?

>>> Irrelevant. A car cost 6 times more (for a cheap one) than it did forty years ago.

Considering inflation, do desks, chairs and books cost exponentially more than they did 40 years ago?

>>> And 55 or so years ago, we had a nasty habit of not really adequately funding and educating minorities. We created an environment where women aborted clandestinely, or we forced them to drop them out of school because they were pregnant.

Right...when teen pregnancy and abortion weren't endorsed and promoted as socially acceptable. That's probably why there were fewer instances back then.

>>> Think back to the 1960s, think back to the riots in our cities. Why do you think they occurred? 40 plus years ago, back when you try to suggest all was wonderful?

Was life ever "wonderful?"

>>> Do you believe our young in those areas were getting superb educations?

Were teachers worse back then? Were people less intelligent and less able to be taught?

>>> And how about special needs kids? How about our population more than doubling over that time?

The cost was "per student"...so even if the population grows, the cost "per student" still rises with no appreciable return.

>>> Now I will agree we overmedicate our children overall, but I still think we do a better job now than then, but the issues are not due to liberalism... by the way, in case you missed it, there was a substantial conservative interlude that just ended, or are we to forget that? OK, I am for that, I would just as soon forget, too. So too the country.

Conservatives aren't immune from liberalism.

<< We've seen the success of the liberal method...and it's nothing to be proud of. We also have hundreds of years of relative success teaching abstinence and instilling values and morals...hey, let's go with the proven failure! Yeah, that makes sense.

>>> Unlike the right, I will not claim everything we do works. One thing that gets forgotten is that implementing new plans and strategies requires monitoring and adjustment, and that part was forgotten. Our fault.

Right...that's the part of the liberal credo where it's the intention that matters, not the results.

>>> The real problem is looking to place blame instead of working to solve.

The real problem is clinging to an ideology rather than looking for viable solutions.

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-13-2008
Sat, 03-14-2009 - 11:02pm

Two pronged argument...I can argue against the damage that "working mothers" cause to their children and to society...but I can also understand, and support, women finding themselves in an untenable situation and being forced to make the best of it. I suppose the argument comes down to "intent."


Do you also


Full length fiction: worlds undone

"You have no power over my body..." ~ Anne Hutchinson

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-22-2009
Sun, 03-15-2009 - 12:06am

~Sure sounded that way.~


I'm glad that I could clear that up, and

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-12-2009
Sun, 03-15-2009 - 12:11am
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iVillage Member
Registered: 01-22-2009
Sun, 03-15-2009 - 12:11am

"You simply aren't in any position to question or judge

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-12-2009
Sun, 03-15-2009 - 12:12am

>>> Do you also have issue with working fathers?

No.

>>> I really find further debate pointless. If we are of a place where you have issue with women working unless necessary, well... no point in going further.

Sad...it might have been interesting.

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-22-2009
Sun, 03-15-2009 - 12:13am

Someone said the word "interesting"?

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