Europe bounces back !!!!

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-25-2010
Europe bounces back !!!!
12
Tue, 08-10-2010 - 12:25am
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iVillage Member
Registered: 01-25-2010
Wed, 08-11-2010 - 3:08pm

Roman patron of the arts is a fay cry from R&D.
Schools for the rich were not engineering.
technical knowledge was not widespread and usually closely guarded secrets of the inventor or their family

>>>>The Arrow had "competition?" But you said the Arrow was "35 years ahead of it's time." Are you now suggesting that the US and the British also had aircraft on the boards that were "35 years ahead of their time" too<<<<<<
Yes that is correct. No one said national pride had intelligent thought behind it

>>>>>>>Why would the Canadian government spend more money on the F101 when they had the super-duper, technologically advanced CF-105 Arrow sitting in a dusty hanger somewhere? Hmmm...<<<<
Because John Diefenbaker had the tooling and prototypes destroyed. That was an OOPs moment.
The rumor is that American political leaders made a deal
and it has yet to be substantiated.
Combat aircraft at that time were produced by only a few nations
Sweden,Soviet Union,US,France,Britain. Add Canada to the mix that would make 6 with that capability. Of the aircraft in prototype the CF105 was superior. But Nations do not always go with the best product.

Sweden had a policy of not selling to potential belligerent nations. But their Draken did sell to Denmark,Austria,Finland as well as Sweden.
Superior aircraft will always Dependant on the usage that is needed.
This was an interceptor NOT a dog fighter more like the much later MIG 25-31 series. Or the much later European Tornado.
If a country was seeking a dogfighter then they would not choose a CF105.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogfighter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_35_Draken

French: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_III

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Super_Mystère

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lansen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_hunter

>>>>Actually, the Bomarc was in operation for many years...but you're trying to tell us that the "35 years ahead of it's time" Arrow, developed by a Canadian company, was scrapped so they Canadian government could buy crappier planes from the US? Seriously?<<<<<
Yes it would not be the first nor the last time such happens.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 08-10-2010
Wed, 08-11-2010 - 2:16pm

>>> The Romans made the same mistake we are lack of R&D.

Sorry, that's laughable. R&D has ALWAYS been going on...from the invention of the wheel, to the light bulb, to the Snuggie. one difference now, is that Obama thinks he can legislate innovation...he can't.

>>> They thought that they had all the knowledge. Had they been wiser they would have established schools to bring technical education to the Empire. (remember that communication was much more difficult then)

Well, first of all, the Romans did have established schools. The government and the wealthy, then as now, also patronized the arts and supported technological innovation.

>>> In that time much of the developments happened by accident and that the inventor kept it secret as there was no patent office available.

Inventions at the time happened the same way all developments have always happened...some through experimentation, some through accident, some through inspiration. And no inventors are keeping their inventions secret. All through history, there have been incentives for invention and innovation...it's kind of why there has been a constant flow of invention and innovation.

>>> The Arrow had competition from British designs and most nations are under political pressure to built it here etc. This was also the time of the missile and it's "wonders". The Bomarc was to have had nuclear warheads which really went over oh so well that it caused the collapse of the government.

The Arrow had "competition?" But you said the Arrow was "35 years ahead of it's time." Are you now suggesting that the US and the British also had aircraft on the boards that were "35 years ahead of their time" too?

And as far as the Bomarc is concerned, when Canada couldn't afford both, it simply made more sense to opt for a defensive system that was coordinated with a strategy shared by the US and NATO. And while a nuclear payload was obviously controversial in Canada, the Bomarc did carry nuclear warheads through the life of the system.

>>>Why would the Canadian government spend more money on the F101 when they had the super-duper, technologically advanced CF-105 Arrow sitting in a dusty hanger somewhere? Hmmm...<<<<

>>> Because there were Political considerations as well as agreements with the US. The Canadian economy was not ready for antimissile and the rebuilding of the radar sites. Bomarc caisrd a giant waste of money as no one was happy about nuking their own cities as defense against bombers. Later it was found that the "great Bomarc" was also obsolete before it could be deployed.

Actually, the Bomarc was in operation for many years...but you're trying to tell us that the "35 years ahead of it's time" Arrow, developed by a Canadian company, was scrapped so they Canadian government could buy crappier planes from the US? Seriously?

>>> My error it was the siege of Syracuse.

And what "energy" weapons were used at Syracuse? I sure hope you're not referring to Archimedes alleged "heat ray." First of all, there's no evidence it actually ever existed...and even if it did, I don't think you can call a "mirror" an "energy weapon."

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-25-2010
Wed, 08-11-2010 - 12:53pm

The Romans made the same mistake we are lack of R&D. They thought that they had all the knowledge. Had they been wiser they would have established schools to bring technical education to the Empire. (remember that communication was much more difficult then)
In that time much of the developments happened by accident and that the inventor kept it secret as there was no patent office available.

The Arrow had competition from British designs and most nations are under political pressure to built it here etc. This was also the time of the missile and it's "wonders". The Bomarc was to have had nuclear warheads which really went over oh so well that it caused the collapse of the government.

>>>Why would the Canadian government spend more money on the F101 when they had the super-duper, technologically advanced CF-105 Arrow sitting in a dusty hanger somewhere? Hmmm...<<<<
Because there were Political considerations as well as agreements with the US. The Canadian economy was not ready for antimissile and the rebuilding of the radar sites. Bomarc caisrd a giant waste of money as no one was happy about nuking their own cities as defense against bombers. Later it was found that the "great Bomarc" was also obsolete before it could be deployed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CF-105_Arrow

My error it was the siege of Syracuse.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 08-10-2010
Wed, 08-11-2010 - 1:00am
Of course they're working to restore stability...the alternative is a complete economic collapse. But what they're NOT doing is what you say they're doing...jumping right back into the entitlement mentality that got them in trouble in the first place. Fiscal responsibility is the watchword in Europe these days...and they're pressuring Obama to do the same.
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-10-2010
Wed, 08-11-2010 - 12:57am

>>> Very wrong The Arrow was 35 years ahead

That must be why Canada couldn't sell this technological masterpiece to either the US or the British.

>>> and were is the Bomarc? Dropped right/

Well, yeah...because it was designed to target manned bombers and the world stopped throwing rocks and started using ICBMs. You might also have noticed that our military has also upgraded from muskets.

>>> And then the Canadian government spent more on the F101 a far inferior aircraft and more expensive.

Why would the Canadian government spend more money on the F101 when they had the super-duper, technologically advanced CF-105 Arrow sitting in a dusty hanger somewhere? Hmmm...

>>> Steam power was known: The history of the steam engine stretches back as far as the first century AD; the first recorded rudimentary steam engine being the aeolipile described by Greek mathematician Hero of Alexandria. In the following centuries, the few engines known about were essentially experimental devices used by inventors to demonstrate the properties of steam. In 1543. Blasco de Garay is reputed to have used a primitive steam machine to move a ship in the port of Barcelona. Later, a rudimentary steam turbine device was described by Taqi al-Din in 1551 and by Giovanni Branca in 1629.

But...um...you said..."There was a fortress in (i believe )Macedonia that had steam powered drawbridges." Odd these technologically advanced steam-powered drawbridges weren't mentioned in your article.

You also said..."At the Siege of Corinth the first energy weapons were used." The "Siege of Corinth" took place in 1862, so it's pretty likely that "energy" devices were around...like trains, for instance...but 1) as far as I know, only conventional weapons were used at the time...unless you consider muskets and cannons to be "energy weapons"...and 2) the "Siege of Corinth" wasn't a battle, it was a strategic withdrawal.

And maybe the Roman "industrial revolution" was a secret.

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-25-2010
Tue, 08-10-2010 - 10:54pm

Very wrong The Arrow was 35 years ahead and were is the Bomarc? Dropped right/ And then the Canadian government spent more on the F101 a far inferior aircraft and more expensive.

Do research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_arrow

Steam power was known:
Main article: History of the steam engine

The history of the steam engine stretches back as far as the first century AD; the first recorded rudimentary steam engine being the aeolipile described by Greek mathematician Hero of Alexandria. In the following centuries, the few engines known about were essentially experimental devices used by inventors to demonstrate the properties of steam. In 1543. Blasco de Garay is reputed to have used a primitive steam machine to move a ship in the port of Barcelona. Later, a rudimentary steam turbine device was described by Taqi al-Din in 1551 and by Giovanni Branca in 1629.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_power

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iVillage Member
Registered: 01-25-2010
Tue, 08-10-2010 - 10:29pm
Strange that is not happening as the european nations are working to restore stability.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 08-10-2010
Tue, 08-10-2010 - 8:04pm

>>> yes the R&D factor is very important. One of the reasons for the fall of the Roman empire was the lack of R&D! The technology of that time was on the verge of the industrial revolution. At the Siege of Corinth the first energy weapons were used. There was a fortress in (i believe )Macedonia that had steam powered drawbridges.

Been watching "Ancient Aliens" on the Discovery Channel?

>>> That the Avro Arrow a aircraft the was 35 years ahead of it's time constructed by a small Canadian company with far superior technology. But was destroyed by American interference and political stupidity.

First of all, Avro Canada was not a "small Canadian Company." Second, The Arrow was not the "super-advanced" aircraft you imagine it to be, and it was the Canadian government who scrapped the project in favor of the Bomarc missile system which was more inline with the Soviet-deterrent strategy employed by the US and NATO.

As for the rest...

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-10-2010
Tue, 08-10-2010 - 7:49pm
Hardly. Greece is only alive today because it was propped up by other European countries while it made massive cuts to it's spending. The same "cut spending" approach is happening in most other countries in Europe as well...except the US, of course, where Obama and the Dems continue to spend us into bankruptcy. The entitlements you speak of are short lived and on the chopping block throughout Europe.
iVillage Member
Registered: 02-15-2007
Tue, 08-10-2010 - 1:11pm

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