delurker w/behaviour question
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| Fri, 05-13-2005 - 8:25am |
Hello everyone! My name is Shelli, and I am the 35-year-old mother of four children, one of whom is five years old and is an Aspie. His name is Chay, and he is so smart and so great, and he is the apple of my eye. As he gets older, he shows less and less autistic behaviours, and I know by watching him it is because he sees how he is 'supposed' to act by watching his friends (who I know well, and approve of, and whose mother is my best friend) and his little brother, who is 3 1/2 but who acts much older than his age.
Anyway, I'll get to introducing my family, including Chay, more in depth later. Right now, I have a question that I have got to put out there. I've got two books, and I swear, I think I have read every article on the internet at one point or another, and I can't seem to get this one answered.
Is it my child's Aspergers, or is it just a bad behaviour unrelated to the Aspergers, that causes him to do things he KNOWS he'll get in trouble for? Let me just tell you a little about the problem. He doesn't like to get in trouble... he HATES it when I get mad at him, he is Mama's boy big time. But he seems to not be able to resist! Examples:
1- He ripped the felt off one of the pockets of his Dad's pool table. His reason? It was already torn a little bit, and yes, he said he knew we'd get mad, but (and I quote), "I just wanted to." This is said with almost a remorse, nothing smarty pants about it.
2- There was a can of sray paint on the side deck and even though he asked if he could paint and I said no, we later found an area of the house where he had painted. Again, he just wanted to.
3- He got my spool of string out of the spare room's closet (he's already been told to leave the spool alone AND to stay out of that closet) and made webs all over his room. Again, he wanted to. But this time, he had a suggestion. Why don't I put the string somewhere else, where he can't get it? Again, no smarty attitude.
4- He dug a hole out in the back yard, in a place he knows is not designated for his digging. Same response as always.
There are sooo many more. But these are a few of the most recent, which are fresh in my mind.
Now, mind you, I stay at home with my children, and am even homeschooling them. They are never alone. When they are outside (the two boys outside are 3 1/2 and 5 1/2), I literally check on them every five minutes and leave the windows open so I can hear what they are up to. HOWEVER, I feel as if I cannot turn my back for a minute even. If I do, I am risking a 'thing' by Chay. I hate it. I feel so angry at him when he does this stuff. I just don't know what to do. I need to know if it is Asperger related.
Does anyone else have problems like this?? Is it aspergers? What do you think?

Hi Shelli!
I see some of the behavior you are describing in my 4.5 year old daughter and she is normal functioning as far as I can tell. I don't see it as much as when she was younger, but I do still occaissionly see destructive behavior from time to time and when I ask her why she can't really explain..."I just wanted to" is ususally the answer I get. And she's always ashamed and sad when she's is being reprimanded (spelling?)
Again, like your son, she HATES to get in trouble and she knows that she will eventually for these destructive acts, but she just can't seem to help herself.
It's very frustrating, I know. And in most cases she is very helpful, eager to please and a sweet, sweet little girl. So I wouldn't necessarily say that is the Aspie part of your son's makeup. It seems like the "experiments" your son is performing have dramatic results and perhaps are just too irresistable for him right now. I wonder what the payoff is for him on some of these things...is he just insatiable curious?
I'd be curious to see what others have noticed in their autistic kids.
Gemma
Mommy to Blythe (4.5 years), Kieran (2.5 years and suspected ASD) and Cameron (9 mos and just delicious).
I think it is totally Asperger's. It could be a couple parts of it.
First, many asperger's have significant OCD (obsessive compulsive) tendancies. To see something there, thier brain just won't give it up until they do what they need to do. They will perseverate and perseverate until thier brain makes them crazy. Yesterday, Mike was perseverating on an appointment of Daves and getting in trouble for not doing what he was supposed to. I saw him put his hand to his forehead and very seriously say "I have somehow got to get that out of my head!"
If that is the case, then maybe social stories or some behavioral planning for making better choices when his brain does that. So instead of just a "no" don't do that, help him choose an activity that is OK to do. Try to teach him to come and ask for help when he wants to do something that he knows he isn't supposed to and you together can come up with a better choice that will get his mind off that.
Another option of why the behavior is happening, could be that he doesn't understand as well as you think the behavior is wrong. Aspies are pretty good at covering thier challenges sometimes. And communication is a big one. For instance, In the same situation, I could ask my kids, "Do you know that is wrong" they may answer yes because they do now but they may not have realized it at the time. I definitely don't think he would realize in advance something would "make you mad". They may have the words, but for the most part my kids don't realize when I am mad unless I get really really really mad and tell them specifically. Even then sometimes they don't. It is really they have a hard time seeing it from others perspectives. If this is the case I would use social stories.
Renee
Hi Shelli,
I don't know the answer, but reading your post made me realize I have the same question! I found Renee's answer to be really interesting, I never thought of it that way before and this is one of our struggles too.
Just so you know you are not alone, my son is younger, 3 w/PDD-NOS diagnosis, but does similar things. He is very verbal, with some quirks. He also hates it when "moma's not happy." He gets crushed when he thinks I am upset with him and it makes me feel so terrible. He hardly ever cries, except if he is sick or hurt, or if I am angry with him.
Like you, I can't take my eyes off him for a minute. This is what happened yesterday. We are potty training. I hear him say, "I have to pee" and I follow, only to find 3 Thomas the tank engine trains in the toilet. (At least he didn't flush!) He has done this before, I say why not to do it. Once the toilet did overflow and I thought then he'd finally quit and understand why. Nope. Later that day my baseball hat ended up in the toilet.
We have a fenced in patio on a lake. Yesterday I turned my back for a minute, only to find Eric standing on a chair throwing his sidewalk chalk into the lake. He has done this before. I lost it. He starts crying, and feel guilty.
Bathtime. If I am not looking, he enjoys taking all the towels off the rack and throwing them in the water.
Another problem, he loves books, but the books he loves most somehow end up with the most beloved parts ripped up. He'll come back later to look at the book and not remember at first how it got ripped. Then he will remember and what will he do? Rip it again! He somehow does not get the idea of action and consequence or that something is "gone." Even though if you hide an orange behind your back and ask him where it is, he can tell you.
What Renee said makes lots of sense. I know he is not doing it on purpose to get me angry. Actually sometimes it seems like he is doing little experiments to prove to himself that if he does X thing Y will happen and that is comforting, or something, until I get angry and then he's all upset, I'm all upset, it's not a pretty sight! I need to work on this!
Katherine
IMO, this indescretion occurs because of processing problems that are part of most ASD kids' make up. My son has similar issues. He doesn't seem to learn from consequences, even though he can tell you what the rule is and seems remorseful afterward. Here are some of the components that may be at work from what I have read:
1) People with ASD's often have extreme singlemindedness when they are working. This means they are unable to think of other things, besides the motor or cognitive plan they have currently set out to do.
2) People with ASD's have problems with commonsense judgement. Neuropsych studies have shown that this may be attributable to poor connection between the prefrontal cortex and the limbic system. They are unable to make emotional connections between events, memories, future plans, etc., which makes them have to totally rely on a sort of disconnected rational way of thinking. They have little or no ability to have "gut feelings."
3) People with ASD's often have difficulty with sequencing, which means they cannot easily think through their own plans. Even when they have formed one plan, this plan may be incompletely thought out because they do not think through all the consequences.
4) People with ASD's often have obsessive compulsive tendencies, so that even when they do not wish to do something, they feel compelled to complete an act. This fits well with the felt ripping incident because once the ripping has begun a person with an OCD tendency will "need" to continue the process through to completion.
5) People with ASD's have poor metacognitive capabilities. Metacognition is the ability to think about one's own thought processes. If you cannot think about your own thought processes, then you may not really know why you do certain things, so your answers to questions, like "Why did you spray paint part of our house, when I asked you not to touch the paint?" will probably come out as a very simple response that doesn't make much sense to a person with more complete reasoning processes. In other words, it is common for such children to give answers like, "I don't know" or "I just wanted to."
For the record, I am psychologist (PHD) with a 5 yr old PDD-NOS kid. I am now a SAHM, and I supervise extremely well, like you do, but we have similar problems. I feel I cannot turn my back either. Perhaps, the most disturbing thing to me is that my son does not seem to care at all about contingencies, even to the point that if he hurts himself, he will do the same act over and over and repeatedly hurt himself. This is a child who can read at a 4th grade level, do 1st grade math, and has obvious musical talent.
Suzi
Thank you, Ladies, for your responses. You've all made me feel better, and at least a little more able to handle the problem. This board is terrific, and I hope you'll welcome another member!
Shelli
Suzi,
Awesome info there, (I cut and pasted it into a document to refer back to which I am sure I will often. Us NTs need to know WHY so badly, don't we?) thank you for taking the time to share your insights.
What I'm wondering now is, can we help these kids? What will they be like as adults? I am so scared my son will never be able to foresee the consequences of his actions. For him it is not so much destructive behaviors but being destructive in relationships. He just can't help saying rude and hurtful things to others. I am afraid he will be so lonely later in life.
During particularly stressful times when he is so abusive to me I am afraid to admit I look forward to him moving out one day. I just feel like his emotional punching bag so much, I get so raw, even though I know he can't help himself....I think our biggest problem is he doesn't want help. He's content to continue living in his own little world and damned if anyone tries to help him become more social or anything. It's like that old saying goes, you can't help someone who won't admit they have a problem.
Anyway, thanks again. It is great having you on the board. I also kept the thread about the token economy. It's great to get insights from those who have BTDT.
--Christine, mom to Jonah, 9, ASD and Jameson, 6, NT