End zero tolerance

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-25-2006
End zero tolerance
20
Sat, 10-28-2006 - 3:02pm

End zero tolerance. Here are a couple links that every parent of a high school student should check out. I never paid any attention to the school code of conduct, thinking I raised my children well, always reminding them of what's legal and what's not, and of the real life (not school)consequences of making bad decisions. I thought they understood us and that they'd never get in trouble. Prior to my son's suspension two weeks ago, I would have said I support a "zero tolerance" policy.

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;112/5/1206?fulltext=expulsion&searchid=QID_NOT_SET

http://endzerotolerance.com/student_rights_card.pdf

This guy explains my position:
http://www.garlikov.com/philosophy/expulsion.htm

Thanks for spreading the word!

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http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/october/meet_the_new_health_.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQTBYQlQ7yM

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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-25-2006
Mon, 10-30-2006 - 5:40pm

Hyd blue,

This his how it happened at my son's school. The asst princ & ath dir say a staff member suspected some kids were drinking at Friday night game, after observing their behavior at the game. On the following TUESDAY, they begin calling kids (6-8?) to the office, one at a time,and interrogate up to one hour until they admit. The ones who denied it, whether or not they drank, still had their parents called. The the AP then interrogated the parents, in one case, for 45 minutes, after school. Her son had been interrogated 45 minutes and was not allowed time for lunch that day, then had to go directly to soccer practice after school.

Why did the staff person not say something AT the game on Friday night? She allowed kids suspected of drinking to drive home? How responsible is that? Why did they not do breathalyzers at the game, right there? Why did they not call the parents that night, from the game?

It is the type of punishment, and the interrogation & accuasation process that is wrong. My son admitted to taking a few sips of rum, OFF school grounds, before they left for the game, and he said that he did not drink at the game. (I don't know what he told them when he was interrogated--as I said, he is an introvert, and if he knew he did something wrong he would have admitted to anything they said just because he knew he'd done something very wrong.) The school says that he was "under the influence" if he had ANY alcohol in his system. The AD told me that, to him, my son appeared normal when he saw him at the game that Friday night. Even if they use their definition of "under the influence" they cannot prove that my son had alcohol in his system when he attended the game, since they do not know how long it takes for my son to metabolize alchol and they do not know when he drank it. So we feel that although he admitted drinking alcohol the night of the game, according to the student handbook, he should not have been suspended since it did not occur on any school grounds. (I did not even look at the handbook until the fourth day of his suspension, after receiving the form in the mail saying that I had said he was "under the influence", which I never did.) We ARE now appealing.

According to the handbook, the punishment is 10 days suspension, but it can be reduced to 5 days if the student undergoes a drug test and an assessment by an addictions counselor. Well, my son had the drug test--how dumb is that 4 days after the alcohol incident? And my son had his appt with the addictions counselor--also dumb. He said he was asked how much he drank, if he does drugs, has sex, shares needles, etc. and it took only 20 minutes. This counselor did nothing to get inside my son's head and had no way of knowing if he was answering truthfully. My son also was not allowed to play in the last three soccer games of the season. When he went back to school after 5 days he got a D on his biology test. He was too emotionally distraught to do any serious studying during his suspension, although he did try. Last week I got a form in the mail saying my son has had 6 absenses and if he get to 10 he can lose credit. So we cannot spend Thanksgiving together as a family because he cannot miss any school cuz if he would later get sick, he might lose credit and could not graduate. (My husband is 500 miles away for one year.)One of the 6 absensces was for his addiction assessment and the other 5 for the days of suspension. And we're trying to figure out a way he can see his brother (who has limited vacation days) during the Xmas break. My son will probably be kicked out of Nat HOn Society cuz of this. He did not exercise or eat well for 2 weeks now. Both he and I are emotionally fragile--I have to leave the house when I have a crying spell cuz I don't want him to be more upset and unable to study.

I'm going to yoga now. I'll continue later. ARe you getting the picture? Punishing first time offenders like this is punishing the whole family and risking the kids life, if he's so upset he could attempt suicide. That's what's wrong with zero tolerance.

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http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/october/meet_the_new_health_.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQTBYQlQ7yM

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-16-1999
Mon, 10-30-2006 - 7:01pm

Truth be told, I have no problem with the school attempting to deal with kids under the influence at a school event.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-25-2006
Mon, 10-30-2006 - 8:15pm
If you've read my "suspended, $350 jacket" post, you know he's been punished at home. Yes, he did something illegal, and we are not simply protecting him. I was worried he'd commit suicide, and if that weren't a real worry, I never would have had him see a psychologist. He'll see him again next week, and I don't know what the recommendation will be after that. There have been some minor incidents in the past where he got very distraught, but NOTHING ever like this. If this same incident had happened with our older, extrovert son, I would probably not have protested the school's policy because he would not have become the emotional wreck this son has. But THAT'S the problem with zero tolerance. They can dish out the same, harsh punishment to everyone, but the effects are very different on each individual. (The results of the suspension on the kids who play no sports, are repeat offenders, and are not serious students are half as bad.) The school also gave me no idea how to deal with it when he was sent home. My anger, yelling and questioning over and over again about everything may have led to his feelings of helplessness.

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http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/october/meet_the_new_health_.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQTBYQlQ7yM

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-25-2006
Mon, 10-30-2006 - 8:45pm

Hyd blue,

Continuing my earlier post.......

THe students at my sons HS might be deterred for a few weeks or months from drinking alcohol as a result of the suspension of 5 students. But the suspension policy for first-time offenders is not the way to go to decrease teen drinkging. When we again told my son that he was never to be around alcohol again until he's 21, he said, "You mean I cannot even be a designated driver?" And I told him, "That's right. You can call me and I'll give rides to anyone who cannot get home safely."

Here's what would work better for first-time offenders:

Give them an option--current suspension policy OR

inform parents,and
x numbers of community service, and
Require them (and parents?) to attend x number of AA meetings, and
require them to talk to troubled middle-schoolers about their bad decisions, and
lose sports privileges, and
lose the right to leave campus for lunch.

Before any mandatory suspension, the parents should be given a chance to punish and stop any behavior of which they were unaware. This mandatory suspension policy implies that we parents are allowing our kids to drink, when, in fact, most of us know the possiblity exists but we have stopped calling every, single time they go somewhere to see if the parents are home. While there are some parents out there who think it's okay to let kids drink as long as they don't drive, there are very few of them.

WIth the non-suspension reqmts above, I can guarantee you the stories they'd bring back to their friends from their comm. svc and AA meetings would do more to curb teen drinking, and any later drinking in college, and in their adult life, than the current suspension policy does.

UNLESS THEY ARE A THREAT TO THE SAFETY OF OTHER CHILDREN IN SCHOOL, THERE IS NO REASON TO PREVENT THEM FROM ATTENDING CLASSES WHEN THE SCHOOL'S JOB IS TO EDUCATE OUR CHILDREN.

Finally, I'd like to say that I hope your children never decide to engage in underage drinking; and if they do, I hope your school does not have a zero tolerance policy. I never thought mine would make that bad decision after all the articles I clip for them, the emails I send and all the talking we do about the dangers. But the stats say 77% of high schoolers DO. So the odds are against us all.

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http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/october/meet_the_new_health_.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQTBYQlQ7yM

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-16-1999
Tue, 10-31-2006 - 6:32am

Your "plan B" sounds great - assuming there are actively involved parents at home who really care whether their underage child is drinking - and unfortunately, there are too many times when that is not the case.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-06-2006
Tue, 10-31-2006 - 10:38am

Okay, okay, I get a better picture of what happened now. Sorry for being so slow on the uptake. Grey matter, is in fact, drying up as of this moment.

A question: Does zero-tolerance always, always, always mean suspension? I don't have a problem with the theory itself, OR with a consequence of some sort for infractions, but I can see now that suspension isn't necessarily the ideal consequence.

From here, I'd say the problem is not necessarily with the zero-tolerance policy so much as it with the way the policy was enforced and punishment applied in the case of your son. Yes, I think it is absolutely ridiculous to call these students in 4 days AFTER the fact, force confessions out of them then and dole out an arbitrary punishment. Yes, I think you should make a stink about this.

My big beef with schools and their 'policies' is not the policies themselves, but the way they are 'kinda sorta maybe some of the time' enforced, depending on which students and school administrators are involved. It has been my experience with the middle school in our town that kids in the 'uber popular' crowd are less inclined to comply with school policy (be it dress code, gum chewing, tardies, or making a mile run in time) and the school staff is more inclined to turn a blind eye to their infactions, and less inclined to enforce these policies with the kids that hang in that crowd than with the other students. It absolutely frosts me!

My thoughts on the zero-tolerance policy are that it isn't such a bad thing, particularly where drugs and alcohol are concerned, and I don't think a blanket elimination of the policy is the answer. HOWEVER, I do strongly feel that a more consistent enforcement of the policy (timeliness, to whom, under what circumstances, punishment, etc.) should be applied. If the school can't enforce their own policies, then they should abandon them altogether.

That said, my DD does attend a private high school that has a zero-tolerance policy. It was HER choice to attend this particular school and I am happy that we are in a position to be able to support here in this. It has been a great fit for her.

Before she started high school, we were out somewhere and ran into some acquaintances from the same town we live in. When they learned what hs DD was planning on attending, one of them looked DD straight in the eye and said "You know, don't you, that you can't screw up at that school? You won't get a second chance if you do, so you better be careful." We knew this and DD is now fully aware of it. Apparently one of this womans' sons had been expelled from the same school in February of his senior year for 'screwing' up. She didn't go on to say what his offense was, but I suspect it had something to do with drinking.

This same school also has a dress code that requires uniforms. It is not an especially strict uniform code ... on any given day you will not see two students in the same two pieces of clothing. Well maybe you will with the boys, their clothing options aren't as plentiful as they girls' are.

Anyway, last year when the weather turned chilly, DD wore her own fleece jacket to school. Her English teacher asked her to remove it and put it in her locker because it was a non-uniform jacket. That very same day, one of DD's friends was wearing a jean jacket and nothing was said to her about it, nor was she asked to remove it. This is the sort of thing that gets me hot and bothered.

I could have made a stink about this, but I chose not too. I checked the school handbook, which up until that moment I really hadn't bothered to read, and yes indeed, it clearly states that jackets must be school approved and/or purchased from the school store. The next day I sent DD to school with a blank check so she could buy herself a school jacket. She came home with a zippered sweatshirt, but we live in SoCal and you can pretty much get through the entire year with just a sweatshirt. Not quite what I expected for a coat, but oh well.

I didn't make an issue of the jacket because when we paid the registration fees for this school, a big part of the deal is for US to have our kids comply with IT'S rules. It's just the way it goes ... we pay for this school, and when we send that check in, we are agreeing that we will abide by it's policies and rules. I know this is peanuts compared to what you are going through with your son, I guess I'm just giving you a different perspective on how I view school policies -- at least with this particular school.

I hope you get the resolution you want when you appeal to the school board. I will be curious to see how it all plays out. Keep us posted. Also, best wishes to your son. I hope he can get through this experience intact.

Julie

 

 

 

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-25-2006
Tue, 10-31-2006 - 12:25pm

From all I've read, zero tolerance means that the school will not listen to any explanation, and no warnings are given, like traffic cops sometimes will give to speeders. You get caught in violation of the code, or during interrogation, while under duress you admit to violating the code: you receive the punishment. At my son's school the punishment includes out-of-school suspension for drinking alcohol, among other things. At some other school it might be in-school suspension. So,I guess, zero-tolerance really varies from school to school.

Someone plants weed in a kid's locker and the kid gets suspended. A utility knife is left in a kid's vehicle, he gets expelled. It doesn't matter if it's the kid's or if the kid even knows it's there. Essentially, zero tolerance says you do not need to be proven guilty, only suspected of being guilty. And that makes any mandatory suspension or expulsion policy wrong under zero-tolerance. My guess is that 95% of the schools that have zero-tolerance policies, have suspension or expulsion as the punishment for drugs and alcohol. So many would say zero-tolerance means suspension or expulsion. It turns kids, and PARENTS, against administration, when they need to be working together to keep our kids safe.

My goal is not to exonerate my son--he deserves punishment. My goal is to make the punishment fit the crime. I would not have made a big deal had the school unjustly punished him even though the school had no authority over him,IF they had a reasonable policy. If they want to have a zero-tolerance policy, then they need to make sure the first-time punishment fits the crime, and that it doesn't make ANY kid feel so worthless that he contemplates suicide.

My kid never would have said, "Oh, I just can't go to these AA meetings, I think I'll just end it all." or "These 20 hours of community service are making me want to commit suicide." He would have HATED to have to attend the meetings or spend the time doing community service, but he wouldn't have felt worthless because of it, and I'm sure he would have learned a more valuable life lesson than he did from being suspended. And if he hadn't been ostracized via suspension, many of the thoughts in the next paragraph would have never stressed him out.

But I can easiy see him thinking, "I'm suspended for 5 days. I'm missing classes. I can't concentrate on studying. All my As will turn to Ds and Mom & Dad will be furious. I'll be kicked out of Nat Hon Society. My teachers will think I'm a bad kid. What will the colleges say? If I can't go to college, what kid of job will I get? I'm sick of emptying beer bottles with cigarette butts in them at the grocery store. Sure can't do that all my life. I have no friends. I could never easily make friends cuz I'm shy. Who will want to be my friend now? Only the guys who drink. But they won't want me as a friend if I don't drink. Everyone knows how bad I am. How will I ever have any friends? My soccer teammates are mad at me cuz I could've helped the team win. Instead, they lose. They won't want to be my friends. My parents are mad at me. How many times did they tell me to stay away from alcohol and drugs? I let them down. They probably wish I were dead. My brother thinks I'm stupid. The kids who denied drinking are playing soccer and having fun. They think I'm stupid for admitting it. I'm so dumb. Why should I continue living?"

-----------------------------------------------
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/october/meet_the_new_health_.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQTBYQlQ7yM

Avatar for heartsandroses2002
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 10-31-2006 - 1:12pm

{{{janet}}}

I really don't have any great words of wisdom in regards to your son's situation, but I wanted to show you some support. I personally do not agree with 'zero tolerance' either. I think there should always be a little wiggle room for explanations, circumstances beyond our control and 'funny business' on the part of so called friends.

I mean, even states and the federal government hold trials and discovery meetings before doling out the sentence, right?

I hope you can find a way to assuage your son's fears about how others will view him, his drop in grades, etc. I think most reasonable adults will consider the fact that it's his first offense. OTOH, if he's been a bit of a hotshot over the years, that may reflect poorly on him. We have a few well known kids in town who've gotten into trouble and no one can touch them, not even the law, because of who thier parents are. And then, we have the kids who've had small scrapes with the law over the years and people view them as automatically guilty, no questions asked. It's sad, really, because it makes it that much more difficult for a kid to clean the slate when everyone is always thinking he/she' up to something.

Support your son, but be careful not to empathize with him too much...you don't want him to think it's okay to usurp the authorities at any time. hugs

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-06-2006
Tue, 10-31-2006 - 3:04pm

Oh wow, I really had no idea that 'zero-tolerance' at your DS' high school is that severe. I am truly sorry for that. I honestly did not know or understand all the behind the scenes info you provided in these last few posts and I truly was not trying to fan the flames -- just understand. I tend to stick my head in the sand where most current social issues are concerned, not because I don't care, but because I don't usually understand enough of whatever is going in the background and behind the scenes to take an educated stand or informed opinion on them.

My DH is very much a 'black and white' kind of guy. There are virtually no shades of grey in his perspective so you can imagine what sorts of conversations we have. None of any significance actually, because he chooses NOT to listen to opinions contrary to his own, nor is he willing to provide any insight as to why 'this is this' and 'that is that'. It just is, in his mind.

Anyway, thank you for educating me on this. You may remember in a previous post that I mentioned I had pondered this all this past weekend. I even tried to engage DH in a discussion about it so I could hear a different perspective. He is 100% behind any school that carries that policy. End of discussion.

BTW, I am the one who said your DS should be able to buy the coat, if he had the money.

 

 

 

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-07-2005
Wed, 11-01-2006 - 8:56pm

I'm also against zero tolerance and the way it is doled out sometimes.

I'm lucky that my DS-17 is no longer at a z.t. school. Heck, at his school they can even bring pocketknives.

A previous school he attended was a nightmare with their z.t. policy. Our problem was that my son had been so bullied in elementary and middle school that the day he decided to hit back, for the first time in his life, it was on between me and the school. (He was once attacked at a school outside Houston 26 times between Thanksgiving and the end of school... wth?)

We were in court within the week.. just us, not the kid who hit first and they said they couldn't tell us why because of a privacy issue at the school; again, wth?) There was never an accusation that my son had started any fight. And after he'd been punched in the face, both times he only hit back once. We had to go to court twice. Nothing happened either time, so really, what was the point?

No one cared about the bullying AT ALL. He defended himself twice and was thrown into an alternative school with real criminal kids (one 13 y.o. participated in a horrific murder the year before-he was in jail though by the time my son got there, thank goodness) But still, my son would come home and tell me about the 14 y.o. who was selling drugs and another one, 15, who was there for stealing a car. Zero-tolerance is getting ridiculous, imo.

Near Waco, a really good high school kid had helped his grandmother move over a weekend and a butter knife had fallen out and into the bed of his pickup. Zero-tolerance. Out of school and all extra-curriculars he went.

Sometimes when threads go on for days, I accidentally post twice, so I apologize to everyone if I've done that... but z.t. really gets under my skin.

I also posted on your other thread that I thought you should allow him to buy the coat. Have you decided yet?

zz

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