Hugs and I hope things clear up and make more sense soon.
I think counseling would be a good idea. She has to know that if she breaks up with him, he is going to go hook up. Even I know that from these boards because of past posts.
So, either she has too little impulse control to make the connection and follow through with something less drastic than breaking up, she is unhealthily invigorated by this drama, or, at some level, she WANTS him to hook up with other girls.
I know you are concerned with the overdependence, and I understand that 100%, but I find the above worrisome too :(
I fully understand that is is extremely stressful for your family with your husband deploying soon, and can empathize with the feelings involved in that.
I know it's tough with a teenage daughter! I'll keep this short and sweet. When my daughter has b/f problems, my husband (as an innocent bystander HA HA) gave me some great advice once...he told me "all she wants is for you to HEAR her out...don't give her advice...it will come back to bite you in the end...just listen. That is so true with my daughter and her relationships. No matter what I say, right or wrong, she rarely heeds my advice. For our girls..it's a live and learn situation. They have to learn and learn again to live with the consequences of their actions...and she will "get it"...soon.
We mothers stand back and see the relationship for what it truly is.. our daughters, on the other hand, think with their hearts!
Having been a sounding board for both of my daughters for a few years (and ongoing) I learned a few things. The first is not to get overly involved. Guide your dd, do not have intimate conversations with her bf and by all means do not tell them what to do. Point them in the right direction, call your dd out when she's being unreasonable or overly demanding or dependent on her bf, but do not tell them what to do or tell them your inner most feelings about their relationship. You're right, it was a long post, but I've pasted ome of it here to comment - and please, do not take offense. You posted and asked for opinions and that's what you're getting. Take what you want, leave the rest as the saying goes...
"Thursday night, dd and bf got into a huge blowout. Basically, she needed J to be there for her that day and she tends to be quite vocal and blew up at him. As one of their typical fights go - she blows up, he tries to calm her down, she gets more mad, he flips out on her back (calling her not loving names), she breaks up with him. Normally, the next step is he kisses up to her and in the morning when she is calm they talk things out at everything is fine and dandy."
This is an awful pattern they are setting themselves up with for future relationships. Regardless of whatever your dd is going through in no way should she or her bf reduce themselves to such abusive and destructive behaviors. This is where your guiding word steps in and advises them to "take a time out (not break up) and re-address this the next day" and to also tell your dd that demanding & controlling behaviors are not what trusting and loyal relationships are made of.
"They have both come to me in the past for advice on dealing w/ these situations, which I gave, but it's often ignored. As almost all the fighting happens at night - end the conversation: for her as time to think, because in the morning she always knows she over-reacted and for him to not push at her, because when she's mad the more you push at her, the madder she gets. Let her think on it."
This is good. Let THEM work it out.
"Dd had Driver's Ed the next morning. J sent me a message on myspace because he noticed she's been extra-ordinarily moody lately and he didn't know what to do. He was confused. I simply told him that it was going to get worse before it got better. She's definitely on an emotional rollercoaster and she is so reliant on him (he's been through everything with her)."
Again, dd needs to NOT be so reliant on her. Everytime something goes awry in dd's world she expects him to behave as should a 30 year old spouse. They are kids - perhaps it is too much for him to meet her needs.
"Looking back on it now, I know I took it too far, and said if you can't handle her baggage and can't come up with a way to diffuse the situation with out telling her her feelings are ridiculous and calling "lovely" names, he needed to walk away."
Perfect opportunity to leave it at that. In fact, I don't think it's appropriate for you to be this involved in their business. If they can't handle being in a relationship, perhaps they are simply too young and should not be this enmeshed in one another's life.
"I said she was really going to need him to be there for her and it was a lot on him - I didn't want her hurting him anymore and I sure didn't want her falling to pieces at a time when she really needs support."
Exactly - she needs him too much and it's not fair for her to be hurting him and it's equally not fair for everyone to waiting around for her to fall to pieces. It seems she needs too much from a young guy who simply is not ready to give that and may not even understand what the heck it is she needs him for.
"We get back from driving at about 10:30pm. DD falls to pieces...He hadn't called or texted..She starts the search to track him down...she calls him and texts him - no reply. She comes to the conclusion that he's done with her...he confirms this at midnight...he was really cold to her...said he loved her, but he couldn't do this anymore, but he would come over in the morning and they could talk. She goes nuts - tears the new and old roses to pieces, tears up pictures, etc."
It is appalling to me that she is doing this and how did she get to the place where she's calling all over trying to track him down at midnight? Why can't they go one day without saturated contact without her falling apart? This would be a real GIANT concern for me. Tearing up pictures, flowers, etc? That's an inappropriate response that should be addressed in counseling. It is very self indulgent and skewed thinking.
"At about 1am she went on myspace and read an interesting comment from the girlfriend of the guy J had gone to the festival with. "You do not love (dd) - you love C...." Turns out his friends decided J needed a "hookup". He met some random girl and as documented on myspace practically sucked her neck bloodless."
Although I think it was thoughtless and less than respectful for him to hook up with some girl, OTOH, I can see him running away to someone less needy, someone he can have fun with who is less demanding and so self centered. I think perhaps due to his age and the circumstances, as an adult you could cut him some slack. DD needs to learn that the world and her bf do not revolve around her.
"Basically in the process of all this, instead of keeping my mouth shut, I said too much, because she asked. She agreed with everything. We finally get to sleep at about 4am. She's calm and said she was done with him. Well this alternated with loving him and having to be with him, all day. When she talked with me about it and I opened her eyes she was done with him and then she would talk to him and everything would be just peachy (he decided he wanted her back)."
I have been there for sure - instead of just listening I would say something...something I would most assuredly regret later. I have learned to be a better listener and give advice only when asked for and never reveal my personal feelings about the bf or the situation other than to keep my dd's safety well being in mind. Lips Zipped.
"I finally told her to stop asking me my opinion - it hadn't changed and it wasn't going to. I also told her to make a good decision she needed space from him to figure out what she wanted."
Perfect - should have left it at that.
"He knows her and is very good at manipulating her with words."
Uh, it sounds like she's very good at manipulating him quite nicely as well.
"She snaps and says fine I'll just text him and tell him you hate him now and we're done because you don't want me with him."
Again, they are very young and will twist everything you say to meet their needs. She's feeling remorse and thinking she will win him back and now you're the villain. Ugh.
"...my emotional state isn't the best right now and I blew up. Threw her cell phone in the pool and let it rip with everything I felt about J at that moment. It was the either the 2nd or 3rd time he had done this "hooking up". I told her he was ripping her self esteem apart, she had no self respect if she was going to beg for him to take her back after he keeps making her look like a fool and if he was going to belittle her everytime she is stressing out. I told her she was too dependent on him and needed to define herself without him. I told her they has started a pattern - she gets mad at him, breaks up with him, he has a free pass for a hook up, she's okay with it, takes him back, then it repeats... over and over again...."
Those are all truthful thoughts and it's good that you feel that way, because for the most part, it's true. But, you're right, it would have been better if you'd have just walked away and let her deal with it. Ultimately, it is she and the bf who have to figure this out.
"I told her he was weak and how could such a weak person be there for her as a source of strength."
He is a young man, an older boy, for crying out loud. NO ONE at their ages should have to be that strong or realiable. It isn't like they are married or something. They are school aged young adults still navigating their way through life and relationships. Simply stating that they love one another, as we adults know, does not automatically make everything else click into place. I really think that you're blinded by the love for your dd and only see his shortcomings and not hers.
"I had originally told her I never wanted to see him again that I couldn't sit back and watch his fakeness. I had already given him 2nd and 3rd chances."
I don't think it's up to you to be giving him chances. Again, this is their relationship, not yours.
"I did change for the sake of her later, so that hey, if this is what she wants, I need to be nice to him. It just won't be like it was. I've been open to both of them for advice and he has truly been treated like a son."
He is not a son. He's a friend of your dd's. Treat him as a guest in your home and put up some definitive boundaries. Continue to be nice and cordial of course, but you really need to draw a line and take a step back.
"She looks me straight in the eye and says "don't worry, J's not going there." I looked her straight back and said you are so full of it, she finally admits she lied. She comes home from the fireworks and says what a great time she had and that she and J are just friends and she probably won't take him back. She apologized for lying about J not going - she didn't want me mad at her for being with him. I again said, if this is what she wanted, I wouldn't make things difficult for her and put her in the middle. There is no need for lying and sneakiness. In her next breath, she says I'm going to bed. Sometime later, I noticed she was on the house phone. She has spyware on her computer, but I never check it, I went ahead and checked it. She had just left J a comment on myspace "hey i'm calling your cell in a few, I love you, delete this message so she doesn't see it" She had also told him before the fireworks to not put he was going there in his Aim away message and nothing about her - because I will see it."
She is a kid and she knows she can manipulate you as well as the bf. You're so worried about her feelings all the time, and I know it's been rough for her lately, but she will most definitely use your sympathy and love against you for her own gain. Don't allow her to. Be firm and stand your ground. You can still love her and be supportive when it is warranted but she needs to also be held responsible for her bad behavior and attitude, lying and sneakiness.
"I'm like OMG, I told her I would make the effort, I won't be rude, I've always loved this kid as a person. I know I made it too clear to her I didn't want them back together, but I conceded and admitted it was none of my business. I was sincere."
In the world of parenting, you and your child (teen) are not on even ground. You must still be the parent first before her confidante.
"I guess time will make this better. I am getting counseling for both of us. She totally falls apart when he's not there for her. She didn't have one friend to call about all this because all of them were going to say the same thing I said. She has always been so strong and so happy. I wish she was that person again. She's never been the lying and sneaking around person and I don't like this. I definitely just gave them the "Romeo and Juliet" syndrome and I just don't know what to do. I officially am the enemy now"
You are taking a step in the right direction here! This is great - find a good counselor for her, and you. You can go together or separate but she definitely needs to see someone about her behavior and you could use the support you will need for the next few years guiding her through and into her young adulthood.
Kel, best of luck. I hope you don't take offense. I went through some things with my 19dd and her relationship with her exbf of 2 years. She was still in HS then and her behavior was manipulative at times. While I really cared for her bf a lot and accepted him as a member of our family, I also saw that he tried and successfully was very controlling with dd. With that level of imbalance in a relationship, it's typical that both parties will act out irrationally and inappropriately. When the exbf cheated on dd, it was an eye opener for her. In her current relationship, thank God I am not there to witness everything firsthand (she's at college now). Her bf IM's me and will sometimes ask for advice in their relationship. I advise him to speak with dd or use his older sister as a sounding board. I simply cannot become entrenched in their stuff. DD once asked me about an issue recently and all I said was, "I think you sometimes have a tendency to manipulate or control your bfs when you feel overwhelmed by other things going on. At those times I think the best thing you can do is be honest and take a step back for a few days to think things through. It hurts others when you manipulate/control them." She thanked me about a week later because my words helped her put her own insecurities into perspective and make a healthy decision. She and her bf are closer and more respectful because they work it out themselves. Of course, they are older than your dd, but it started way back then for my dd as well.
Don't be so hard on yourself, you know what not to do now!
You know what? I think you just gave your opinion as you felt it. You were asked, you answered honestly. There's nothing wrong with that and there is nothing wrong with what you said.
Whatever you think of the young man, your daughter also has alot to learn about how to behave in a relationship. And the ONLY way she will learn is to suffer the consequences of her mistakes. Eventually some day one or the other or both of them will get tired of all the drama. Seriously. If its draining on you than it is equally draining on them.
If it were me I wouldn't bother talking to the bf. He's not your responsibility and from what you say you couldn't care less if the guy was around or not. But your daughter IS your responsibility and I think you need to talk to her about what a healthy relationship is like and how to behave in such a relationship. This "I love you/I hate you/I'm sorry/I love you again" type of thing is not the way to have a happy, nurturing, fulfilling relationship with another person. And SHE is the one who needs to recognize that.
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All that drama would have me exhausted as well!
Hugs and I hope things clear up and make more sense soon.
I think counseling would be a good idea. She has to know that if she breaks up with him, he is going to go hook up. Even I know that from these boards because of past posts.
So, either she has too little impulse control to make the connection and follow through with something less drastic than breaking up, she is unhealthily invigorated by this drama, or, at some level, she WANTS him to hook up with other girls.
I know you are concerned with the overdependence, and I understand that 100%, but I find the above worrisome too :(
God bless you, I don't know how you deal with that much drama.
Edited 9/1/2007 3:31 pm ET by kel7col4
Edited 9/1/2007 3:31 pm ET by kel7col4
I fully understand that is is extremely stressful for your family with your husband deploying soon, and can empathize with the feelings involved in that.
Edited 9/1/2007 3:32 pm ET by kel7col4
I know it's tough with a teenage daughter! I'll keep this short and sweet. When my daughter has b/f problems, my husband (as an innocent bystander HA HA) gave me some great advice once...he told me "all she wants is for you to HEAR her out...don't give her advice...it will come back to bite you in the end...just listen. That is so true with my daughter and her relationships. No matter what I say, right or wrong, she rarely heeds my advice.
For our girls..it's a live and learn situation. They have to learn and learn again to live with the consequences of their actions...and she will "get it"...soon.
We mothers stand back and see the relationship for what it truly is.. our daughters, on the other hand, think with their hearts!
Good luck.
Having been a sounding board for both of my daughters for a few years (and ongoing) I learned a few things. The first is not to get overly involved. Guide your dd, do not have intimate conversations with her bf and by all means do not tell them what to do. Point them in the right direction, call your dd out when she's being unreasonable or overly demanding or dependent on her bf, but do not tell them what to do or tell them your inner most feelings about their relationship. You're right, it was a long post, but I've pasted ome of it here to comment - and please, do not take offense. You posted and asked for opinions and that's what you're getting. Take what you want, leave the rest as the saying goes...
"Thursday night, dd and bf got into a huge blowout. Basically, she needed J to be there for her that day and she tends to be quite vocal and blew up at him. As one of their typical fights go - she blows up, he tries to calm her down, she gets more mad, he flips out on her back (calling her not loving names), she breaks up with him. Normally, the next step is he kisses up to her and in the morning when she is calm they talk things out at everything is fine and dandy."
This is an awful pattern they are setting themselves up with for future relationships. Regardless of whatever your dd is going through in no way should she or her bf reduce themselves to such abusive and destructive behaviors. This is where your guiding word steps in and advises them to "take a time out (not break up) and re-address this the next day" and to also tell your dd that demanding & controlling behaviors are not what trusting and loyal relationships are made of.
"They have both come to me in the past for advice on dealing w/ these situations, which I gave, but it's often ignored. As almost all the fighting happens at night - end the conversation: for her as time to think, because in the morning she always knows she over-reacted and for him to not push at her, because when she's mad the more you push at her, the madder she gets. Let her think on it."
This is good. Let THEM work it out.
"Dd had Driver's Ed the next morning. J sent me a message on myspace because he noticed she's been extra-ordinarily moody lately and he didn't know what to do. He was confused. I simply told him that it was going to get worse before it got better. She's definitely on an emotional rollercoaster and she is so reliant on him (he's been through everything with her)."
Again, dd needs to NOT be so reliant on her. Everytime something goes awry in dd's world she expects him to behave as should a 30 year old spouse. They are kids - perhaps it is too much for him to meet her needs.
"Looking back on it now, I know I took it too far, and said if you can't handle her baggage and can't come up with a way to diffuse the situation with out telling her her feelings are ridiculous and calling "lovely" names, he needed to walk away."
Perfect opportunity to leave it at that. In fact, I don't think it's appropriate for you to be this involved in their business. If they can't handle being in a relationship, perhaps they are simply too young and should not be this enmeshed in one another's life.
"I said she was really going to need him to be there for her and it was a lot on him - I didn't want her hurting him anymore and I sure didn't want her falling to pieces at a time when she really needs support."
Exactly - she needs him too much and it's not fair for her to be hurting him and it's equally not fair for everyone to waiting around for her to fall to pieces. It seems she needs too much from a young guy who simply is not ready to give that and may not even understand what the heck it is she needs him for.
"We get back from driving at about 10:30pm. DD falls to pieces...He hadn't called or texted..She starts the search to track him down...she calls him and texts him - no reply. She comes to the conclusion that he's done with her...he confirms this at midnight...he was really cold to her...said he loved her, but he couldn't do this anymore, but he would come over in the morning and they could talk. She goes nuts - tears the new and old roses to pieces, tears up pictures, etc."
It is appalling to me that she is doing this and how did she get to the place where she's calling all over trying to track him down at midnight? Why can't they go one day without saturated contact without her falling apart? This would be a real GIANT concern for me. Tearing up pictures, flowers, etc? That's an inappropriate response that should be addressed in counseling. It is very self indulgent and skewed thinking.
"At about 1am she went on myspace and read an interesting comment from the girlfriend of the guy J had gone to the festival with. "You do not love (dd) - you love C...." Turns out his friends decided J needed a "hookup". He met some random girl and as documented on myspace practically sucked her neck bloodless."
Although I think it was thoughtless and less than respectful for him to hook up with some girl, OTOH, I can see him running away to someone less needy, someone he can have fun with who is less demanding and so self centered. I think perhaps due to his age and the circumstances, as an adult you could cut him some slack. DD needs to learn that the world and her bf do not revolve around her.
"Basically in the process of all this, instead of keeping my mouth shut, I said too much, because she asked. She agreed with everything. We finally get to sleep at about 4am. She's calm and said she was done with him. Well this alternated with loving him and having to be with him, all day. When she talked with me about it and I opened her eyes she was done with him and then she would talk to him and everything would be just peachy (he decided he wanted her back)."
I have been there for sure - instead of just listening I would say something...something I would most assuredly regret later. I have learned to be a better listener and give advice only when asked for and never reveal my personal feelings about the bf or the situation other than to keep my dd's safety well being in mind. Lips Zipped.
"I finally told her to stop asking me my opinion - it hadn't changed and it wasn't going to. I also told her to make a good decision she needed space from him to figure out what she wanted."
Perfect - should have left it at that.
"He knows her and is very good at manipulating her with words."
Uh, it sounds like she's very good at manipulating him quite nicely as well.
"She snaps and says fine I'll just text him and tell him you hate him now and we're done because you don't want me with him."
Again, they are very young and will twist everything you say to meet their needs. She's feeling remorse and thinking she will win him back and now you're the villain. Ugh.
"...my emotional state isn't the best right now and I blew up. Threw her cell phone in the pool and let it rip with everything I felt about J at that moment. It was the either the 2nd or 3rd time he had done this "hooking up". I told her he was ripping her self esteem apart, she had no self respect if she was going to beg for him to take her back after he keeps making her look like a fool and if he was going to belittle her everytime she is stressing out. I told her she was too dependent on him and needed to define herself without him. I told her they has started a pattern - she gets mad at him, breaks up with him, he has a free pass for a hook up, she's okay with it, takes him back, then it repeats... over and over again...."
Those are all truthful thoughts and it's good that you feel that way, because for the most part, it's true. But, you're right, it would have been better if you'd have just walked away and let her deal with it. Ultimately, it is she and the bf who have to figure this out.
"I told her he was weak and how could such a weak person be there for her as a source of strength."
He is a young man, an older boy, for crying out loud. NO ONE at their ages should have to be that strong or realiable. It isn't like they are married or something. They are school aged young adults still navigating their way through life and relationships. Simply stating that they love one another, as we adults know, does not automatically make everything else click into place. I really think that you're blinded by the love for your dd and only see his shortcomings and not hers.
"I had originally told her I never wanted to see him again that I couldn't sit back and watch his fakeness. I had already given him 2nd and 3rd chances."
I don't think it's up to you to be giving him chances. Again, this is their relationship, not yours.
"I did change for the sake of her later, so that hey, if this is what she wants, I need to be nice to him. It just won't be like it was. I've been open to both of them for advice and he has truly been treated like a son."
He is not a son. He's a friend of your dd's. Treat him as a guest in your home and put up some definitive boundaries. Continue to be nice and cordial of course, but you really need to draw a line and take a step back.
"She looks me straight in the eye and says "don't worry, J's not going there." I looked her straight back and said you are so full of it, she finally admits she lied. She comes home from the fireworks and says what a great time she had and that she and J are just friends and she probably won't take him back. She apologized for lying about J not going - she didn't want me mad at her for being with him. I again said, if this is what she wanted, I wouldn't make things difficult for her and put her in the middle. There is no need for lying and sneakiness. In her next breath, she says I'm going to bed. Sometime later, I noticed she was on the house phone. She has spyware on her computer, but I never check it, I went ahead and checked it. She had just left J a comment on myspace "hey i'm calling your cell in a few, I love you, delete this message so she doesn't see it" She had also told him before the fireworks to not put he was going there in his Aim away message and nothing about her - because I will see it."
She is a kid and she knows she can manipulate you as well as the bf. You're so worried about her feelings all the time, and I know it's been rough for her lately, but she will most definitely use your sympathy and love against you for her own gain. Don't allow her to. Be firm and stand your ground. You can still love her and be supportive when it is warranted but she needs to also be held responsible for her bad behavior and attitude, lying and sneakiness.
"I'm like OMG, I told her I would make the effort, I won't be rude, I've always loved this kid as a person. I know I made it too clear to her I didn't want them back together, but I conceded and admitted it was none of my business. I was sincere."
In the world of parenting, you and your child (teen) are not on even ground. You must still be the parent first before her confidante.
"I guess time will make this better. I am getting counseling for both of us. She totally falls apart when he's not there for her. She didn't have one friend to call about all this because all of them were going to say the same thing I said. She has always been so strong and so happy. I wish she was that person again. She's never been the lying and sneaking around person and I don't like this. I definitely just gave them the "Romeo and Juliet" syndrome and I just don't know what to do. I officially am the enemy now"
You are taking a step in the right direction here! This is great - find a good counselor for her, and you. You can go together or separate but she definitely needs to see someone about her behavior and you could use the support you will need for the next few years guiding her through and into her young adulthood.
Kel, best of luck. I hope you don't take offense. I went through some things with my 19dd and her relationship with her exbf of 2 years. She was still in HS then and her behavior was manipulative at times. While I really cared for her bf a lot and accepted him as a member of our family, I also saw that he tried and successfully was very controlling with dd. With that level of imbalance in a relationship, it's typical that both parties will act out irrationally and inappropriately. When the exbf cheated on dd, it was an eye opener for her. In her current relationship, thank God I am not there to witness everything firsthand (she's at college now). Her bf IM's me and will sometimes ask for advice in their relationship. I advise him to speak with dd or use his older sister as a sounding board. I simply cannot become entrenched in their stuff. DD once asked me about an issue recently and all I said was, "I think you sometimes have a tendency to manipulate or control your bfs when you feel overwhelmed by other things going on. At those times I think the best thing you can do is be honest and take a step back for a few days to think things through. It hurts others when you manipulate/control them." She thanked me about a week later because my words helped her put her own insecurities into perspective and make a healthy decision. She and her bf are closer and more respectful because they work it out themselves. Of course, they are older than your dd, but it started way back then for my dd as well.
Don't be so hard on yourself, you know what not to do now!
As usual, when Jo posts something I just want to say, "yeah, what she said!"
You know what? I think you just gave your opinion as you felt it. You were asked, you answered honestly. There's nothing wrong with that and there is nothing wrong with what you said.
Whatever you think of the young man, your daughter also has alot to learn about how to behave in a relationship. And the ONLY way she will learn is to suffer the consequences of her mistakes. Eventually some day one or the other or both of them will get tired of all the drama. Seriously. If its draining on you than it is equally draining on them.
If it were me I wouldn't bother talking to the bf. He's not your responsibility and from what you say you couldn't care less if the guy was around or not. But your daughter IS your responsibility and I think you need to talk to her about what a healthy relationship is like and how to behave in such a relationship. This "I love you/I hate you/I'm sorry/I love you again" type of thing is not the way to have a happy, nurturing, fulfilling relationship with another person. And SHE is the one who needs to recognize that.
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